OSC and Islam

[Ithilien]

It took me a while to find this again, but I think it is a powerful speech that Peter gives. No doubt, some of it (if not all) is OSC's opininion on what Islam can become. Is he painting a darker picture than Islam actually is, or does he speak truth?

"Islam," said Peter, "has never learned how to be a religion. It's a tyranny by its very nature. Until it learns to let the door swing both ways, and permit Muslims not to be Muslim without penalty, then the world has no choice but to fight against it in order to remain free...Alai is a decent guy...I think he has some ideas of liberalizing Islam from the top. But it can't be done. He's simply wrong. He's a general, not a politician. As long as ordinary Muslims believe it's their duty to kill any Muslim who tries to quit being Muslim, as long as they think they have a holy duty to resort to arms to compel unbelievers to obey Islamic law - you can't liberalize that, you can't make it a decent system for anybody. Not even for Muslims. Because the cruelest, narrowest, most evil people will always rise to power because they'll always be the ones most willing to wrap themselves in a crescent flag and murder people in God's name."

[hive_king]

I found SotG to be pretty insulting towards muslims, myself. It really seems to villify not just the leaders of the muslim people, but almost all muslims. I mean, having muslims trying to kill the Caliph? That'd be on par with Catholics trying to kill the pope.

[eriador]

Oh well. The very nature of religion is devicive (sp?), and we all know that OSC is quite religious. What else do you expect?

[hive_king]

I expect you not to make broad sweeping generalizations when you don't know what you're talking about. What about certain Eastern religions like msot forms of Buddhism, or taoism? They're pretty inclusive religions, eri. Do your homework.

[Guest]

I found SotG to be pretty insulting towards Islam, as well.

However, I find Islam insulting to humanity - so on this one, OSC is right.

[Dr. Mobius]

I found SotG to be pretty insulting towards Islam, as well.

However, I find Islam insulting to humanity - so on this one, OSC is right.

Nonsense. Christianity, on the other hand, is very much an insult. I'm sure some author somewhere can back me up on this so I can feign intellect for a few moments while I inadvertently kill the brain cells of the poor souls who are, for whatever reason, reading this ignorant drivel.

[Guest]

I found SotG to be pretty insulting towards Islam, as well.

However, I find Islam insulting to humanity - so on this one, OSC is right.

Nonsense. Christianity, on the other hand, is very much an insult. I'm sure some author somewhere can back me up on this so I can feign intellect for a few moments while I inadvertently kill the brain cells of the poor souls who are, for whatever reason, reading this ignorant drivel.

I fail to see where I stated that Christianity was not an affront to humanity. Your straw man that I'm some kind of Christian apologist who hates Islam is worthless. Furthermore, your apparent belief that I expect anyone, anywhere, at any time who reads it to convert to anti-Islamism (or at least, somehow lose intelligence) due to my 2 line statement is laughable at best. I'm not really sure what kind of effect you desired with your sarcasm, but all I can see is that you are just as bitter and cynical as you seem to think I am, and wish for an ignorant response so that you can put it down with some more moronic sarcasm and feel superior to some guy on a web forum who looks down on poor, peaceful little head-chopping, gay-stoning, woman-beating, totalitarian Muslims.

All of this, for my statement that I, personally, find the tenets of Islam insulting to any reasonably objective human ethic - which apparently, from the original post, I gather that the guy whose books this whole damn forum is set up on, agrees with. I'm sure you can find some author somewhere who backs you up in your pursuit of religious intolerance of intolerant religions, but I couldn't give a s*** less, Mobius.

What, not enough hot action in the Game Room at this hour? Don't quit your day job.

[Dr. Mobius]

I found SotG to be pretty insulting towards Islam, as well.

However, I find Islam insulting to humanity - so on this one, OSC is right.

Nonsense. Christianity, on the other hand, is very much an insult. I'm sure some author somewhere can back me up on this so I can feign intellect for a few moments while I inadvertently kill the brain cells of the poor souls who are, for whatever reason, reading this ignorant drivel.

<failed attempt at sounding intelligent while using unfounded accusations and inflammations to bait the quoted poster into a hot-headed reply>

I'm just a tad too apathetic to even bother reading most of that crap, let alone indulge in your fantasy. Although I do suggest you look up parody in the dictionary sometime, preferably before you make yourself look even worse than you already have.

[Guest]

Spare me the feigned antipathy, Mo. At least I quoted you accurately.

If you want to insult me, I have no contention with it. But I doubt that your faux-apathetic jabber belongs in this thread. At the very least, my vitriol was on-topic. Your dismissing a response to an insult with another set of long-thought out (yet poorly executed) insults doesn't make me look stupid - and even if it did, well, congratulations. I'm sure your daddy is very proud, and all the people who now think I'm stupid are forever grateful that you pointed out my intelligence level, because golly - they would have never been able to formulate an opinion about me on their own.

And, just a quick question - if you didn't read the previous post, how could you formulate such a complete opinion of it? I mean, to surmise that the whole thing was unfounded accusations and inflammatory bait from reading just a snippet of it must take an incredibly perceptive mind. Are you afflicted with some kind of semi-functioning autism?

[Dr. Mobius]

I really don't think you realize just how much I enjoy this frivolous banter. Stick around awhile and maybe you'll find how just how apathetic I really am.

[Guest]

Yes, well - I realize that you mod butt-buddies get the free pass, but I have no intention of finding out any more about you than neccessary. Enjoy while you can, so I can wait for a topical response to the thread in peace.

[jotabe]

As i see it, while extreme, OSC criticism is not completely unfounded. Many (most) monotheistic religions are born dictating how a state should be organized. You can find that in the fundational (holy) texts. Judaism and Islam are similar in this aspect. Eventually there are heresies that lessen this relation state-religion, even scorn the figure of the state. Clearly, Christianism was born as such an heresy of Judaism.

Islam never had a successful heresy of this kind. Not successful enough that it managed to be embraced by large part of whole nations.

I won't say that within Christianism there hasn't existed a tight relationship between religion and state. On the contrary: Christianism has given birth to several really powerful theocracies.
But unlike Judaism and Islam, state-church relationship was one of mutual legitimation: the king would give room for the church to expand their influence over his citizens, and the church would give trascendental legitimacy to the king. It wasn't a root relationship: Christianism didn't say how a state had to be ruled (christian theocracies had to use the jewish sacred texts for that).
Hence, it was very well within the Christian orthodoxy (nothing to do with the orthodox church here, please) to scorn and refuse the relationship church-state ("snakes, race of vipers!").
Christianism (not the official church, of course) gave birth to a new way to understand the world, the Humanism, where humans would be at the center of the Creation, instead of God.

Meanwhile, Islam, even though it had very liberal leaders during European Renaissance, never fulfilled this step, because the head of the state and the head of the religion was the same person (the Caliph). And this Caliph wouldn't readily give up the trascendental legitimacy that would come to him from this position.
In modern times, the humanist transition of Islam was about to happen, though, but it was cut off. As a result of Turkish domination in the core lands of the Islam, a strong arabic, non-religious nationalism developed (even if the practitioners were religious people themselves). They allied themselves with the Triple Alliance against the central empires (of which Ottoman empire was allied), with the hope of becoming independent. But instead, they became colonies of the triumphant countries, what granted a return to the religiousness, since the non-religious way to be free had failed.

[eriador]

I expect you not to make broad sweeping generalizations when you don't know what you're talking about. What about certain Eastern religions like msot forms of Buddhism, or taoism? They're pretty inclusive religions, eri. Do your homework.

I meant to refer to religion as a system of belief that proposes a single, absolute truth. That is by it's nature devisive.

[hive_king]

Another thing that happened was that authoritarian secular groups like the Saudi royal family, Sadaam Hussein, and the Shah in Iran came to power and quashed all dissident political movements. However, the state couldn't usually reach into the mosque, so the only dissident voice at all was the mosque, and this did two things. For one thing it drove most of the radical people wanting change into the mosque, and for another many of the radicals (by radicals I mean people who deeply want change and are unhappy with the state) became islamists and pushed the religion into an even more conservative direction.

[Ithilien]

In response to hive_king:

Which is exactly why I think OSC has an element of truth in Peter's speech. Currently, Islam is not lead by Muslims but by Islamists whose fundamentalist ideas are destroying the true meaning of Islam. We see many terrorist acts and crimes committed in the name of Islam by the few Islamists while the many Muslims watch on.