Shadow Series = Fail
Shadow Series = Fail
sorry if I'm making anyone angry, but the Shadow series failed miserably, imho. Still fun reads and all because it's so easy to like Bean, but...
For many of the reasons that EG and SftD were amazing novels (it almost seemed like they actually could happen), the Shadow Series just didn't cut it.
1. Achilles would never be put in charge of anything once he was identified as a serial killer. Achilles never actually accomplishes anything before people start putting him in control of national militaries. Hitler won the Iron Cross and was a war hero. Napoleon was a respected officer in the French military. Achilles was a convicted murderer as a child. He might have tested high enough to get into battle school, but so did about 1000 other kids. And he didn't last one day. He had a glaring weakness and that weakness was exploited effectively. Nobody would have "used" him. They would have locked him up and thrown away the key. Russia's, China's, India's and Peter's "use" of him is ridiculous. Ok, I'll let this psychopath loose, but it will be ok because Bean and Petra are in hiding.
...
Bean had a network as well. All it would have taken was one post from Bean and Peter's tenure as Hegemon would have and should have ended given his disgraceful and obviously ambitious and manipulative tactics.
2. Nobody would have ever let Bean command troops in the field. Plan strategy? Play games? Even command ships "as if" it were a game? Sure. There were good reasons for having children play Ender's game. But to command armed troops in combat--the best, most promising military mind on earth? In fire fights as a child? Pffff... Come on. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.
3. Bean would have killed Achilles. Killing Achilles would not necessarily have had anything to do with vengeance. We kill rabid dogs because they are dangerous and uncontrollable. Bean would have killed him because Achilles was far worse than a rabid dog. Serial killers are completely out of control and the penchant of Russia, China, India and apparently Peter Wiggin to think "hey, we can use this mentally and emotionally disturbed serial killer" is more than enough reason to suspect that Achilles would be a menace to humankind forever. The novels take ends/means relationships to the level of absurdity in both directions.
There is never a lack of evil villains to defeat even if we have to invent them out of thin air--just look at our current events. No need to pull truly dangerous people out of custody in order to justify everyone else in the world giving up their own hegemony. Sure, we create our own enemies a lot of the time, but the suggestion in the Shadow series is that Achilles is so pursuasive and cunning as to be the most dangerous person on earth as a leader. There is no worse danger than Achilles. Extreme nationalism pales in comparison. Risking freeing him from imprisonment is akin to betting your entire life savings on a very risky bet that will net you $1. The risk is just not worth the reward even for an ambitious teenager like Peter. And xenophobic societies like China would never take the risk even if Achilles had Bean's personality.
The real kicker for me though was...
4. Kids are still kids. No matter how intelligent they are, no matter how empathic, children are still children. They lack experience which is and will always be the best teacher. They are emotional--ESPECIALLY the really smart ones. They are hungry. They often have to go to the bathroom. Please stop the helicopter. Are we at the target site yet? And children, especially ones who are told that they are brilliant without restriction, are given to something far worse than stupidity--arrogance. The beginning of wisdom is realizing how little we know, and children haven't had the opportunities to figure that out yet.
The children in these novels just don't act like children--even gifted ones. Bean acts like an even-keeled adult all through the novels--almost like a robot. It feels like he's on a prozac drip. Someone with his upbringing should be working with whole teams of psychiatrists.
He's too perfect. High IQ does not equal perfection. All a high IQ means is that someone has the ability to see things in more ways. It doesn't mean they s/he always makes the right decisions/does the right things like Saint Bean does.
I still enjoyed the novels, still love Bean, but I don't think they measure up to the Hugo/Nebula award winners--not even in the same universe really.
K~
For many of the reasons that EG and SftD were amazing novels (it almost seemed like they actually could happen), the Shadow Series just didn't cut it.
1. Achilles would never be put in charge of anything once he was identified as a serial killer. Achilles never actually accomplishes anything before people start putting him in control of national militaries. Hitler won the Iron Cross and was a war hero. Napoleon was a respected officer in the French military. Achilles was a convicted murderer as a child. He might have tested high enough to get into battle school, but so did about 1000 other kids. And he didn't last one day. He had a glaring weakness and that weakness was exploited effectively. Nobody would have "used" him. They would have locked him up and thrown away the key. Russia's, China's, India's and Peter's "use" of him is ridiculous. Ok, I'll let this psychopath loose, but it will be ok because Bean and Petra are in hiding.
...
Bean had a network as well. All it would have taken was one post from Bean and Peter's tenure as Hegemon would have and should have ended given his disgraceful and obviously ambitious and manipulative tactics.
2. Nobody would have ever let Bean command troops in the field. Plan strategy? Play games? Even command ships "as if" it were a game? Sure. There were good reasons for having children play Ender's game. But to command armed troops in combat--the best, most promising military mind on earth? In fire fights as a child? Pffff... Come on. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.
3. Bean would have killed Achilles. Killing Achilles would not necessarily have had anything to do with vengeance. We kill rabid dogs because they are dangerous and uncontrollable. Bean would have killed him because Achilles was far worse than a rabid dog. Serial killers are completely out of control and the penchant of Russia, China, India and apparently Peter Wiggin to think "hey, we can use this mentally and emotionally disturbed serial killer" is more than enough reason to suspect that Achilles would be a menace to humankind forever. The novels take ends/means relationships to the level of absurdity in both directions.
There is never a lack of evil villains to defeat even if we have to invent them out of thin air--just look at our current events. No need to pull truly dangerous people out of custody in order to justify everyone else in the world giving up their own hegemony. Sure, we create our own enemies a lot of the time, but the suggestion in the Shadow series is that Achilles is so pursuasive and cunning as to be the most dangerous person on earth as a leader. There is no worse danger than Achilles. Extreme nationalism pales in comparison. Risking freeing him from imprisonment is akin to betting your entire life savings on a very risky bet that will net you $1. The risk is just not worth the reward even for an ambitious teenager like Peter. And xenophobic societies like China would never take the risk even if Achilles had Bean's personality.
The real kicker for me though was...
4. Kids are still kids. No matter how intelligent they are, no matter how empathic, children are still children. They lack experience which is and will always be the best teacher. They are emotional--ESPECIALLY the really smart ones. They are hungry. They often have to go to the bathroom. Please stop the helicopter. Are we at the target site yet? And children, especially ones who are told that they are brilliant without restriction, are given to something far worse than stupidity--arrogance. The beginning of wisdom is realizing how little we know, and children haven't had the opportunities to figure that out yet.
The children in these novels just don't act like children--even gifted ones. Bean acts like an even-keeled adult all through the novels--almost like a robot. It feels like he's on a prozac drip. Someone with his upbringing should be working with whole teams of psychiatrists.
He's too perfect. High IQ does not equal perfection. All a high IQ means is that someone has the ability to see things in more ways. It doesn't mean they s/he always makes the right decisions/does the right things like Saint Bean does.
I still enjoyed the novels, still love Bean, but I don't think they measure up to the Hugo/Nebula award winners--not even in the same universe really.
K~
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My very abridged answers:
1. Lots of charisma, a highly developed mind that allows him to connect with anyone and plan ahead, and the fact that you're the only Battle School student who hasn't returned home is more than enough reason to add Achilles to your crew. Oh, and Hitler participated in the Beer Hall Putsch before the Nazis were in control, so he himself has a bad past of his own (not that I combine between that and being a serial murderer, but still..)
2. You gotta remember, Bean was one of Ender's crew. For the rest of the earth, they were godlike, even more important than the other Battle School students. And also, it took much convincing from Bean, and a lot of time, to get him into the Thai army. From there on, there was no proof needed.
I'll continue afterwards.
1. Lots of charisma, a highly developed mind that allows him to connect with anyone and plan ahead, and the fact that you're the only Battle School student who hasn't returned home is more than enough reason to add Achilles to your crew. Oh, and Hitler participated in the Beer Hall Putsch before the Nazis were in control, so he himself has a bad past of his own (not that I combine between that and being a serial murderer, but still..)
2. You gotta remember, Bean was one of Ender's crew. For the rest of the earth, they were godlike, even more important than the other Battle School students. And also, it took much convincing from Bean, and a lot of time, to get him into the Thai army. From there on, there was no proof needed.
I'll continue afterwards.
Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cavefish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cavefish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!
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Re: Shadow Series = Fail
So people flying around in boxes and spliting souls switching bodies is more realistic than this?sorry if I'm making anyone angry, but the Shadow series failed miserably, imho. Still fun reads and all because it's so easy to like Bean, but...
For many of the reasons that EG and SftD were amazing novels (it almost seemed like they actually could happen), the Shadow Series just didn't cut it.
1. Achilles would never be put in charge of anything once he was identified as a serial killer. Achilles never actually accomplishes anything before people start putting him in control of national militaries. Hitler won the Iron Cross and was a war hero. Napoleon was a respected officer in the French military. Achilles was a convicted murderer as a child. He might have tested high enough to get into battle school, but so did about 1000 other kids. And he didn't last one day. He had a glaring weakness and that weakness was exploited effectively. Nobody would have "used" him. They would have locked him up and thrown away the key. Russia's, China's, India's and Peter's "use" of him is ridiculous. Ok, I'll let this psychopath loose, but it will be ok because Bean and Petra are in hiding.
...
Bean had a network as well. All it would have taken was one post from Bean and Peter's tenure as Hegemon would have and should have ended given his disgraceful and obviously ambitious and manipulative tactics.
2. Nobody would have ever let Bean command troops in the field. Plan strategy? Play games? Even command ships "as if" it were a game? Sure. There were good reasons for having children play Ender's game. But to command armed troops in combat--the best, most promising military mind on earth? In fire fights as a child? Pffff... Come on. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.
3. Bean would have killed Achilles. Killing Achilles would not necessarily have had anything to do with vengeance. We kill rabid dogs because they are dangerous and uncontrollable. Bean would have killed him because Achilles was far worse than a rabid dog. Serial killers are completely out of control and the penchant of Russia, China, India and apparently Peter Wiggin to think "hey, we can use this mentally and emotionally disturbed serial killer" is more than enough reason to suspect that Achilles would be a menace to humankind forever. The novels take ends/means relationships to the level of absurdity in both directions.
There is never a lack of evil villains to defeat even if we have to invent them out of thin air--just look at our current events. No need to pull truly dangerous people out of custody in order to justify everyone else in the world giving up their own hegemony. Sure, we create our own enemies a lot of the time, but the suggestion in the Shadow series is that Achilles is so pursuasive and cunning as to be the most dangerous person on earth as a leader. There is no worse danger than Achilles. Extreme nationalism pales in comparison. Risking freeing him from imprisonment is akin to betting your entire life savings on a very risky bet that will net you $1. The risk is just not worth the reward even for an ambitious teenager like Peter. And xenophobic societies like China would never take the risk even if Achilles had Bean's personality.
The real kicker for me though was...
4. Kids are still kids. No matter how intelligent they are, no matter how empathic, children are still children. They lack experience which is and will always be the best teacher. They are emotional--ESPECIALLY the really smart ones. They are hungry. They often have to go to the bathroom. Please stop the helicopter. Are we at the target site yet? And children, especially ones who are told that they are brilliant without restriction, are given to something far worse than stupidity--arrogance. The beginning of wisdom is realizing how little we know, and children haven't had the opportunities to figure that out yet.
The children in these novels just don't act like children--even gifted ones. Bean acts like an even-keeled adult all through the novels--almost like a robot. It feels like he's on a prozac drip. Someone with his upbringing should be working with whole teams of psychiatrists.
He's too perfect. High IQ does not equal perfection. All a high IQ means is that someone has the ability to see things in more ways. It doesn't mean they s/he always makes the right decisions/does the right things like Saint Bean does.
I still enjoyed the novels, still love Bean, but I don't think they measure up to the Hugo/Nebula award winners--not even in the same universe really.
K~
The Ender books aren't meant to be completely logical. Go read a text book.
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I think the Shadow books were fun to read, but Speaker seemed more intellegent. They were just very differnt from Speaker, I think. I don't think they were terrible.
And I didn't find Bean perfect. When I first read about him, I thought he was an arrogant snot.
And I didn't find Bean perfect. When I first read about him, I thought he was an arrogant snot.
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Re: Shadow Series = Fail
I'd call it more believable, yeah. (Well, mostly.)So people flying around in boxes and spliting souls switching bodies is more realistic than this?
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Re: Shadow Series = Fail
Which is why he didn't attempt to, or even need to attempt to explain the inner workings of the ansible.The Ender books aren't meant to be completely logical.
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I agree with BW. The Shadow books are books based around war, while I would consider the Speaker books based more around philosophy and morality.
They are different. That's all.
They are different. That's all.
“It might not be gravity that holds us to Earth, but rather an unknown force with identical properties.â€-Sister Carlotta
“Only the Inquisition would know what to do with you—toast you nice and brown.â€-Bean
“Only the Inquisition would know what to do with you—toast you nice and brown.â€-Bean
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The Shadow books don't have the substance and depth of the original Ender's Game series, in my opinion. Books like Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead were really cutting edge.
The Shadow series is not. It's an average series, as far as scifi goes, and lacks the specialness and uniqueness that the Ender's Game series had.
The Shadow series is not. It's an average series, as far as scifi goes, and lacks the specialness and uniqueness that the Ender's Game series had.
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They are a very different style (or subgenre). The people who read the Speaker series first like the style/genre of the Speaker series, and just read the Shadow series because it was part of the same universe. And... we don't like the new style.I don't see what everyone has against the Shadow books - they're different, that's all.
So yeah, it's just different. Michael Chrichton books are just "different" from OSC's works as well; doesn't mean I have to like them.
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It's really going to be interesting to see how "Shadows in Flight" turns out when (if?) OSC gets around to writing it. I'm hoping that it will combine the best aspects of both series and be the ultimate Enderverse novel! I'm also hoping that it will be at least 500 pages long, cost $1, magically be released yesterday, and OSC will do a book signing at the bookstore down the street from my house. Are my expectations a bit too high?
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I actually think that the Bean/Shadow saga series was EVERY bit as amazing as the Ender saga.
Bean's plot is highly believable.
Let us not forget that MANY ancient civilizations have CHILDREN for their 'living god' country leaders. To name a few...
- Emporer Meiji of Japan was FOURTEEN years old when became ruler.
- Tutenkhamun was 8 or 9 years old when he became pharoah
- The Last emporer of China was 3 years old when he began his reign
As for child soldiers... One word... Vietnam, or another word... Rwanda.
Then couple that with a Battle upbringing of maticulous discipline...
What you end with is genius and skill all held together by excellent bladder control.
So really Card based all his books on past experience, and in Bean's case, he studied ancient battle techniques to think up ways of dealing with modern warfare.
For me the Shadow Saga and Ender Saga go hand in hand, neither is better than the other. for me. I had to read them all.
Bean's plot is highly believable.
Let us not forget that MANY ancient civilizations have CHILDREN for their 'living god' country leaders. To name a few...
- Emporer Meiji of Japan was FOURTEEN years old when became ruler.
- Tutenkhamun was 8 or 9 years old when he became pharoah
- The Last emporer of China was 3 years old when he began his reign
As for child soldiers... One word... Vietnam, or another word... Rwanda.
Then couple that with a Battle upbringing of maticulous discipline...
What you end with is genius and skill all held together by excellent bladder control.
So really Card based all his books on past experience, and in Bean's case, he studied ancient battle techniques to think up ways of dealing with modern warfare.
For me the Shadow Saga and Ender Saga go hand in hand, neither is better than the other. for me. I had to read them all.
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Whether or not the story was believable was not as much the issue for me as the quality of writing. Frankly, I do not think that most of OSC's more recent work is up to the quality of his earlier work, and I include the Shadow series in that assessment.
The exception is his short stories. He writes very good short stories, but I guess they are not as much of a money-maker as a full-length novel.
The exception is his short stories. He writes very good short stories, but I guess they are not as much of a money-maker as a full-length novel.
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I've never agreed with the assessment that Card's writing is of poorer quality in the Shadow books. I like the original quartet better only because it deals with themes and concepts that I find to be more thought-provoking. The reason why I still love the Shadow books is because Card writes so well that I can actually put up with all the politics and historical references that would bore me to tears in any other books. I don't see a difference in quality. That is to say, it's more a matter of what he writes about, not how he writes it.
"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
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I absolutely agree. I'm trying to find a quote that can illustrate what I mean, but it's mostly a trouble of description. In writing, it's best to show, not tell. In Ender's Game, we never had long, drawn out essays about what Ender was thinking at any moment. The audience experienced it with him. The Shadow books have too much... description of what is happening without experience. It separates the reader from the action and emotion.Whether or not the story was believable was not as much the issue for me as the quality of writing. Frankly, I do not think that most of OSC's more recent work is up to the quality of his earlier work, and I include the Shadow series in that assessment.
The exception is his short stories. He writes very good short stories, but I guess they are not as much of a money-maker as a full-length novel.
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It needs to be about 20% cooler.
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It needs to be about 20% cooler.
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Meiji didn't really.... do anything, and I doubt the others did, either, at that age. But Bean's age is not the problem; Ender was young, after all, though the circumstances were certainly different.Let us not forget that MANY ancient civilizations have CHILDREN for their 'living god' country leaders. To name a few...
- Emporer Meiji of Japan was FOURTEEN years old when became ruler.
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I can honestly say, and thankfully I guess, I did not feel that way while reading any shadow saga book, or any ender book. I did find Xenocide VERY difficult to read compared to the others and maybe because it darted around so much and I didn't yet understand the connection between the people of Path to Lusitania. But apart from that which was remedied halfway through, I've genuinely enjoyed them all.The audience experienced it with him. The Shadow books have too much... description of what is happening without experience. It separates the reader from the action and emotion.
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I'm going to disagree specifically with the "They're just kids" line.
I know some others have touched on it, but I know people who never really had a childhood, because their 'childhood' involved having to be small adults. Their play mirrored the lives of their parents; there was a strict regime about the way they conducted their lives. So, it's possible. Especially when they're taken from the home at such a young age (or in Bean's case never knew one, really).
I know some others have touched on it, but I know people who never really had a childhood, because their 'childhood' involved having to be small adults. Their play mirrored the lives of their parents; there was a strict regime about the way they conducted their lives. So, it's possible. Especially when they're taken from the home at such a young age (or in Bean's case never knew one, really).
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Or you'll mature enough to realize that a story can be good and still be badly written.[/quote]
Yeah, I get what you're saying; having just finishing possibly one of the worst written books ever, with a good story, right before reading the Shadow series, Orson Scott Card seemed like a writing god.
I taking about Twilight. Like seriously; Stephanie Meyer can't write for s***, but her stories are awsome.
sorry. That's really off topic; its just what popped up in my head...
Yeah, I get what you're saying; having just finishing possibly one of the worst written books ever, with a good story, right before reading the Shadow series, Orson Scott Card seemed like a writing god.
I taking about Twilight. Like seriously; Stephanie Meyer can't write for s***, but her stories are awsome.
sorry. That's really off topic; its just what popped up in my head...
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Hahahaha, it's easy to be open-minded when you're clearly suffering from a gaping hole in your head, hahaha.I feel bad for those out there that can only like one or the other.
Thank god my mind is open enough that i was able to fully enjoy and understand both the ender and bean series.
Hopefully some of you guys will mature enough to appreciate more than one kind of literature.
I get it now, liking something = open-minded and mature. For a long time I was afraid to admit my love of child pornography, but now I see how open-minded and mature I am. I can be a paedophile and a snob, woo!
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