Madrid Bans Too-Skinny Models from Catwalks

[Eaquae Legit]

The title about covers it. In September, the Spanish Association of Fashion Designers decided to ban models with a BMI of lower than 18 from the catwalks at Madrid fashion week. The move is intended to prevent "the wrong message" about body image and worth being spread further.

On one hand, I agree with it wholeheartedly and cheer them on. Fashion, models, and magazine covers present a warped view of beauty for us to strive for. It's unrealistic and unhealthy, and I am glad someone's recognising that.

On the other hand, do underweight models have the right to work, specifically in the fashion industry?

What about those rare individuals who are just plain naturally very skinny, regardless of what they eat?

What about the reliability of the BMI?

On the whole, I still come down on the side of "good move," but I'd like to hear other opinions.

Linkies:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5341202.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5384106.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5374862.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3368833.stm

[eriador]

Perhaps BMI is not accurate, but even "naturally skinny people" shouldn't have a low BMI.

Maybe a more accurate measurement would be better, but I was under the impression that the BMI takes into account things like natural skinniness.

[anonshadow]

*groans* I've seen this before.

I really dislike it, because while I believe that it is very well-intentioned, it's an idiotic way of going about this.

For one thing, I think it would be far wiser to judge it based on a full check up by a doctor, not simple BMI scores--because BMI is not the most reliable that there is in terms of evaluating healthiness, or even appearence.

Take me, for example. My BMI ranges from 16.7 to 17.4, depending on the day. That is well below "normal" range, and it actually means that, according to BMI scores, I am underweight.

My weight is not a problem. I am thin, but those of you who have met me can probably testify to the fact that I do not look emaciated, nor do I look unhealthy. I'm just slight, and I suspect that I also have bird bones (not literally).

I completely understand that most people do not look like me, and that even fewer people look like my mother (who is of average height and has only ever cracked 100 lbs. when she was pregnant). Therefore, I don't think that most models should look like either of us. I think that that sends a bad message and can seriously affect the way women view their bodies (although blaming eating disorders solely on media portrayal is a load of s***).

However, I do think that naturally thin body-types should also be represented, in a ratio that matches the general population--and that unhealthy models should not be encouraged to participate. But there is a very big difference between "unhealthy" and "thin."

And, to be perfectly honest, this sort of attitude just perpetuates the idea that people who are thin cannot be that way naturally, and I hate that. I've been teased and accused of heavy dieting and/or eating disorders, and I'm really tired of it.

The way to deal with body misrepresentation in the media is not to eliminate everyone who is thin. The way to deal with it is to show a variety of healthy, attractive women, and to keep the variety more indicative of the general population.

'cause, uh, skinny girl here? I don't like being accused of bulemia when I have an allergic reaction to the overpowering smell of chocolate in a classroom and dragged into the guidance counselor. Nor do I like being accused of anorexia because I don't like eating lunch at 11, which is when lunchtime was one year in high school.

[anonshadow]

Perhaps BMI is not accurate, but even "naturally skinny people" shouldn't have a low BMI.

Maybe a more accurate measurement would be better, but I was under the impression that the BMI takes into account things like natural skinniness.

Honey, I'm a "naturally skinny person." I eat junk food all the freaking time, I have five meals a day, and it's a rare day that I crack 111--and I'm 5'7. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my weight. It is a perfectly healthy weight, according to every doctor I have ever had, and that's good, because I can't gain any.

And BMI does not take something like "natural skinniness" into account, nor does it take anything else that changes based on the individual--breast size, for example.

A 5'4, 105 lb. girl with an AA cup is very different from a 5'4, 105 lb. girl with a DD cup. BMI does not take that into account.

[eriador]

Thank you for correcting me.

I wasn't sure, and was only expressing my perception of BMI.

[Nicholas]

I love the concept of this rule, to prevent the heroin look from taking over the fashion world again and to give us a healthier looking model.

My problem comes with the concept of BMI like Anonshadow, BMI is simply
Body Mass Index (BMI ) = (Weight in Kilograms) / (Height in Meters Squared)

I am quit short (only 5'1'') and have a relatively equal muscle to fat ratio. My BMI says I am over weight. One of my good friends is quit tall (compared to me 6'3'') he is in the military and extremely fit. His BMI also says he is overweight.

Four years in the medical program at my school and it if few and far between that a BMI is accurate.

In the end good concept but should be rethought a bit.

[anonshadow]

I think the problem with evaluating a person's health based on any few things is a problem in and of itself, though--while there are certain weights that cannot ever be healthy (a man who is 5'10 and 80 lbs, for example), many can be healthy for one person and unhealthy for another, and it's very difficult to determine that without actually looking at the individual.

You point out a huge problem with BMI that's important--a heavily muscled person might be called obese, because BMI is judged solely by weight, and muscle weighs more than fat.

[eriador]

Yeah. If BMI is as inaccurate as it sounds, using it as a criterion for models sounds like a bad idea.

However, even if the critera are bad, the idea is great, and (once they work out the kinks) could be a great model for other governments.

[Eaquae Legit]

Okay, BMI aside. What if their measurement was accurate and individualised, and the doctor-ascertained unhealthy models are banned?

And how about Dove's "real women" campaign? Are they just after money, or are they genuinely altruistic? Is it a mix? Does it matter if they make money off of it if their message gets out?

[anonshadow]

I'm not sure what that would do.

On one hand, I certainly would support berating people with images of healthy women (and men, for that matter), instead of unattainable images of physical "perfection."

On the other, I'm a little hesitant about simply tossing women who have been conditioned and encouraged to look a certain way and treat their bodies a certain way aside.

My other concern is that models would simply hit the lowest end of healthy, and not exhibit any variety at all--which wouldn't be that much better.


As far as Dove goes--altruism is likely part of it, but I'm sure that money it, too. That said, I think that Dove is doing a great thing.

http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.ca/flat2.asp?id=6852

That's a really interesting thing to look at. It shows how much the original model changes once they've got a finished product.

[Young Val]

i have mixed feelings about the dove "real beauty" campaign.

i'm not over weight. but i'm not under weight either. i'm on the upper end of the weight range for my height (which is tall. 5'10). i guess you could say i'm mildly zoftig. i've got hips. yadda yadda skip past all my insecurities or whatnot, and the point is this:

i don't doubt that a portion of the intent behind this campaign is genuine. i'm also willing to believe that a large dose of it is your typical media scam. because even the "real" women they show are perfectly proportioned. they may be larger, but they're still your basic hour-glass figure.

i moved from an A cup to a (near)B cup only after gaining my college weight. and for me to look "proportioned" in the media-encouraged sense, i'd have to be at LEAST a C to balance out.

the other thing i dislike about the dove campaign is that it's so blatant. they couldn't just go ahead and integrate more "natural" looking women into their ads, they had to ANNOUNCE it.

like, LOOK!! big or freckled or super pale or unique in facial structure or ethnic or short or old women are beautiful TOO! this is REAL beauty! of the every-day variety. buy our stuff now!

they couldn't just go ahead and DO it. if they'd done that, just made the change, either slowly over tme, or all at once, but done it without all the trumpets, then i could respect that.

but the fact that they shout about it convinces me it's a (semi-clever) marketing scheme at it's core.

[Dr. Mobius]

I don't really have anything to add, but here's the English version of the video for those of us who don't understand whatever language that is in the other one.

http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/

[starlooker]

Of course they're out for money. They're a corporation. They're not going to make an advertising campaign, no matter how much positive messages are needed, that they don't think is going to raise money. And if it doesn't raise money, they're going to pull it. That's just business.

So, since that's a given, I like the campaign.

I also think it's a clever change from "Ooh, if I use this product, maybe I'll look like her," to "ooh, if I use this product maybe I won't have to hate myself."

That said, the fact that such a campaign could work is obviously a sign of how unhealthy we all are with regards to our thoughts on "real beauty."

So...

is the campaign ultimately self-defeating? On the one hand, we have this message that beautiful women come in a variety of shapes and sizes (although, as Young Val pointed out, certainly not "all" shapes and sizes). On the other hand, we're getting this competing message that to okay with yourself you need to buy dove firming cream or whatever. Isn't that a little self-contradictory! "You're beautiful as you are! Now, buy our beautification stuff!"

But, then, as I said before, obviously they're out for the money. Sincerity is not the question.

I don't know. I wish for more non-announced representation in a variety of markets and places.

[anonshadow]

Article

The United States' approach to the problem. I prefer it.

(It was stretching the screen, so I shrunk it. --EL)

[fawkes]

YAAAAAAY!

[Fish Tank]

Spoilers.... I thought Bonzo Madrid was killed by Ender... how could he ban skinny models from catwalks?

Sorry I had to say that lol I'm surprised no one else did... yeah it's corny I know.

[jotabe]

Having in account that death by anorexy is starting to hit hard among the models (and by imitation, this will affect non-model girls), i think that the problem requires a more radical, Madrid-like, approach.

It's been a long time since models have stopped being models (because they aren't a beauty model at all) to be only mannequins. I guess that designers don't really care about some mannequins dying.

[AnthonyByakko]

I mean, it's not like people care about a bunch of Arabs dying, amirite?

[jotabe]

uh?

What i mean is that most designers (at least, that's the image they project of themselves) are eccentric to the point of seeing themselves as geniuses. They put themselves at a higher position than the mere mortal. "Models" are only worth as tools used to expose the designers' grandeur.
They want a model with a certain measurements, not caring if it is unhealthy for her or not, only caring about how those measurements would make their latest creation look good.

And if they are not like that, they sure know how to hide it well.

[AnthonyByakko]

Sorry. I was saying that, Madrid is taking the time to worry about the health of models and those who imitate them, who bring about health trouble to themselves, when millions of people are dying in the Middle East, Darfur, Somalia, etc.

[jotabe]

Oh, i see ^_^ demagogy at its finest.

[anonshadow]

jota--

I agree that something serious has to be done, but you start to lose me when you propose using a procedure that just plain doesn't work. If my only issue with Madrid was level of severity, I might be more willing to shrug off my doubts, but as is, my issues go far beyond the idea of severity and into the issue of "this doesn't make logical sense."

Again, I point out: I have been under 115 lbs. (which is what I would need to be considered "healthy enough" to model in Madrid) for at least two years. I'm not terribly thin. And, I have friends who do hit the requisite BMI for their height, but who are quite obviously wasting away (generally because of muscle mass).

Should something be done? Sure.

Should it depend on an imperfect system? No.

[AnthonyByakko]

I posit that NO ONE CARES.

Srsly. People who want to starve themselves should send their food to Africa instead of purging it into waste, and then shoot themselves in the face.

[jotabe]

The problem is not about the individual models, but it is affecting even them.
The problem is that they are models. They are put as what people should look up to.
Even if they are naturally thin, and their health is not in danger, the fact that they are models will make young girls try to be like them. Even if it endangers their own health.
You guys should still remember what is like to be a teenager, and how is like the peer pressure. How is not to be accepted for being different. And how acceptance ranks a lot higher than self preservation.
If you set up such unattainable models, bad things will happen. I correct: bad things are happening.

A_B, that's still demagogy. People that suffer from anorexic aren't simply stupid. They aren't idiots that should shot to themselves. They suffer a mental illness. It's an illness that alters the self-perception and self-acceptance. It is not known how that illness is triggered, but the environmental factors are undeniable.

[AnthonyByakko]

I tried, but I just can't care enough about this. Carry on.

[daPyr0x]

Anthony: I think you're the one who deserves to be shot in the face, numbnuts. You obviously have no concept whatsoever of what an eating disorder is or how it affects a person.

First off, do you really think that those people really want to be doing binge/purge cycles? Do you really think they enjoy eating until they can't anymore and then sticking their fingers or the end of a toothbrush down their throat to get rid of it all?

(Real) Eating disorders have less to do with food than people think. It's a mental disease, in the same fashion as schitzophrenia or any other mental illness. At it's worst, it can fully take over your mind. It can make you look at your arms and see, feel, know that you are gaining weight, getting fat, 5 minutes after eating that McDonalds cheeseburger. It can make you take a knife to your own flesh just to try and cut yourself down to 'size', the media promoted version of what that size should be.

You're a dumbshit. Shoot yourself in the f****** face if you're gonna start saying people suffering from mental illnesses should do so. Take the paraplegics and schitzos with you, they obviously have nothing worthwhile to add to society.


As far as hte original topic is concerned. I think the intention is good. The idea itself is a wonderful idea. It's a step that the media needs to take sooner rather than later.

Maybe it's not the best execution. Maybe instead of doing BMI levels you should make them take a body fat test and make them have so much body fat, but even that excludes the highly muscular type. Maybe you should just have them stand up to judges who gauge whether or not they're "too skinny." Any method you come up with for determining whether or not a model is too skinny is going to have flaws.

Here's the problem though. It's awesome that they're tyring to curb eating disorders in young women. That's a great thing. But, at the same time, the majority of the US is f****** filled with overweight people. Is it plausible that withdrawing those images of 'skinny' people would withdraw those that are trying - the right way - to control their intake and their weight? Is it plausible that this could backfire and encourage people to eat like they usually do and just get fat(er) and be even less healthy?

Surely there's gotta be a happy medium in there somewhere. I don't really understand why people can't do things in moderation. I've known far too many people who just cannot mentally control themselves to only eat one cookies, or a handful of M&Ms, or whathaveyou, and keep the rest aside without eating them. I just don't understand it. I'm not saying in the least htat I'm perfect. I drink wayyyy too much pop and eat way too much fast food and am anything but healthy; but at least I have some control...I'm not going to McDs every day and ordering 3 double big macs with extra cheese or anything....

[Eaquae Legit]

Cam, post without the personal insults, please.

[anonshadow]

Maybe it's not the best execution. Maybe instead of doing BMI levels you should make them take a body fat test and make them have so much body fat, but even that excludes the highly muscular type. Maybe you should just have them stand up to judges who gauge whether or not they're "too skinny." Any method you come up with for determining whether or not a model is too skinny is going to have flaws.

Which is why I don't think it should be about "too skinny" at all. It should be about promoting a healthy lifestyle. Models in good health are more likely to weight more, and they'll be promoting good nutrition, exercise, etc.

Here's the problem though. It's awesome that they're tyring to curb eating disorders in young women. That's a great thing. But, at the same time, the majority of the US is f****** filled with overweight people. Is it plausible that withdrawing those images of 'skinny' people would withdraw those that are trying - the right way - to control their intake and their weight? Is it plausible that this could backfire and encourage people to eat like they usually do and just get fat(er) and be even less healthy?

I don't see that happening, not because people with a BMI of under 18 might be pushed off the runway. You can have a BMI of over 18 and still be very thin--I assume they would move toward hiring people in the 18-20 range, if that happened. They wouldn't put heavier people--or even average weight people--on the runway.

Surely there's gotta be a happy medium in there somewhere. I don't really understand why people can't do things in moderation. I've known far too many people who just cannot mentally control themselves to only eat one cookies, or a handful of M&Ms, or whathaveyou, and keep the rest aside without eating them. I just don't understand it. I'm not saying in the least htat I'm perfect. I drink wayyyy too much pop and eat way too much fast food and am anything but healthy; but at least I have some control...I'm not going to McDs every day and ordering 3 double big macs with extra cheese or anything....

Because overeating is an eating disorder, too. You can't have it both ways--either an eating disorder is serious or it isn't, and binge eating without purging is relatively common. There are also other factors contributing to the rash of obesity in the country, as well, including lack of grocery stores in poor neighborhoods. All that is available is s*** food that's bad for the people eating it, but they don't have access to anything else, nor do they have someone to teach them about good nutrition.

I'm not saying that everyone is affected by one of these things, but a lot of people are--and if you're going to scream sensitivity about other eating disorders, you should be screaming it about this, too.

[hive_king]

The problem here, however, isn't anorexia as an eating disorder. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but most of these super skinny models aren't anorexic because they have a mental disease. They're anorexic because they want to be a model (and for many of them its a way to escape from 3rd world poverty. many models come from poorer parts of eastern europe). Many of these girls wouldn't be anorexic if they didn't have to. They're anorexic because they're models and its how they think they're supposed to be and stay models. Its nothing to do with mental disorders.

[anonshadow]

You can't really draw lines in the sand like that. It's hard to say that one person is anorexic because of this, and another is because of that. At the same time, it is indisputable that models (and actresses, for that matter) are under a lot of pressure to lose weight and be intensely thin.

[Claire]

No, anorexia is always a mental disease. Even if its just because they want to model, its still a mental disease. Our society shouldn't put such pressure on models to be thin, and its relatively easy to test someone to see if they're anorexic by monitoring eating habits. I don't think that anorexic models should be allowed to work. FOUR Brazilian models have died of anorexia in like, the last three monthes- that is unacceptible. Something has to be done.

[AnthonyByakko]

Anthony: I think you're the one who deserves to be shot in the face, numbnuts. You obviously have no concept whatsoever of what an eating disorder is or how it affects a person.

First off, do you really think that those people really want to be doing binge/purge cycles? Do you really think they enjoy eating until they can't anymore and then sticking their fingers or the end of a toothbrush down their throat to get rid of it all?

(Real) Eating disorders have less to do with food than people think. It's a mental disease, in the same fashion as schitzophrenia or any other mental illness. At it's worst, it can fully take over your mind. It can make you look at your arms and see, feel, know that you are gaining weight, getting fat, 5 minutes after eating that McDonalds cheeseburger. It can make you take a knife to your own flesh just to try and cut yourself down to 'size', the media promoted version of what that size should be.

You're a dumbshit. Shoot yourself in the f****** face if you're gonna start saying people suffering from mental illnesses should do so. Take the paraplegics and schitzos with you, they obviously have nothing worthwhile to add to society.


As far as hte original topic is concerned. I think the intention is good. The idea itself is a wonderful idea. It's a step that the media needs to take sooner rather than later.

Maybe it's not the best execution. Maybe instead of doing BMI levels you should make them take a body fat test and make them have so much body fat, but even that excludes the highly muscular type. Maybe you should just have them stand up to judges who gauge whether or not they're "too skinny." Any method you come up with for determining whether or not a model is too skinny is going to have flaws.

Here's the problem though. It's awesome that they're tyring to curb eating disorders in young women. That's a great thing. But, at the same time, the majority of the US is f****** filled with overweight people. Is it plausible that withdrawing those images of 'skinny' people would withdraw those that are trying - the right way - to control their intake and their weight? Is it plausible that this could backfire and encourage people to eat like they usually do and just get fat(er) and be even less healthy?

Surely there's gotta be a happy medium in there somewhere. I don't really understand why people can't do things in moderation. I've known far too many people who just cannot mentally control themselves to only eat one cookies, or a handful of M&Ms, or whathaveyou, and keep the rest aside without eating them. I just don't understand it. I'm not saying in the least htat I'm perfect. I drink wayyyy too much pop and eat way too much fast food and am anything but healthy; but at least I have some control...I'm not going to McDs every day and ordering 3 double big macs with extra cheese or anything....

Tl;dr.

[anonshadow]

No, anorexia is always a mental disease. Even if its just because they want to model, its still a mental disease. Our society shouldn't put such pressure on models to be thin, and its relatively easy to test someone to see if they're anorexic by monitoring eating habits. I don't think that anorexic models should be allowed to work. FOUR Brazilian models have died of anorexia in like, the last three monthes- that is unacceptible. Something has to be done.

But what do you do, just throw them out on the street without a job or support?

[jotabe]

No, put them under the appropriate mental treatment for anorexy.

[AnthonyByakko]

Or society could realize that rail-thin zombies with no breasts and no asses are not only not sexy, but are horrifyingly undead-looking. But oh well.