The Love of God

[lyons24000]

I was looking at the "Why do you believe..." thread with the discussion about how we can be sure God really loves us. This is what I have to say on the matter.

"God is Love." (1 John 4:8 ) He loved us so much that he gave his only Son to die for our sins. (John 3:16) In fact, "God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."-Romans 5:8

There are a few things that make people doubt God's love for us. One of them is because of the suffering in the world and his seeming unwillingness to do anything about it. However, he is waiting for a reason: "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) Yes, God is waiting, giving more people the opportunity to repent. However, this opportunity will not last forever because God's justice requires him to do something about it.

This will happen "at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength." (2 Thessalonians 1:7b-9) This "vengeange", does it show a lack of love on God's part?

Obviously, God didn't want us to think that so he had Paul write, "This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us..." (2 Thessalonians 1:6-7a)

God is going to do something about the suffering one day because he promises, "no resident will say: 'I am sick'" and "at that time the eyes of the blind ones will be opened, and the very ears of the deaf ones will be unstopped. At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness." (Isaiah 33:24; 35:5, 6) God is going to make the way out of this suffering for us.

God even said about himself: "Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth, preserving loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin, but by no means will he give exemption from punishment..." (Exodus 34:6, 7) God shows his love in the mercy He wants to show each of us. Read what the Bible says about how God views our sins:

"Jehovah is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness. He will not for all time keep finding fault, neither will he to time indefinite keep resentful. He has not done to us even according to our sins, nor according to our errors has he brought upon us what we deserve. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, his loving-kindness is superior toward those fearing him. As far off as the sunrise is from the sunset, so far off from us he has put our transgressions. As a father shows mercy to his sons, Jehovah has shown mercy to those fearing him. For he himself well knows the formation of us, remembering that we are dust."-Psalm 103:8-14

Further, "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved."-Ephesians 2:4, 5

Others believe that because we go through hardships, personally, that God's love for us might not be complete. Actually, the Bible says, "God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for you to be able to endure it." (1 Corinthians 10:13) In fact, God is not the cause of our suffering. We are told "When under trial, let no one say: 'I am being tried by God.' For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone."-James 1:13

Things happen and God is not the cause. When we are suffering, remember this promise: "In this fact you are greatly rejoicing, though for a little while at present, if it must be, you have been grieved by various trials, in order that the tested quality of your faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being proved by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you never saw him, you love him. Though you are not looking upon him at present, yet you exercise faith in him and are greatly rejoicing with an unspeakable and glorified joy, as you receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls."-1 Peter 1:6-9

God is yearning to comfort us: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those in any sort of tribulation through the comfort with which we ourselves are being comforted by God."-2 Corinthians 1:3, 4

Last, God is always there with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. (Hebrews 13:5) God personally tells us through the prophet Isaiah: "For I, Jehovah your God, am grasping your right hand, the One saying to you, ‘Do not be afraid. I myself will help you.’" (Isaiah 41:13) Yes, rejoice in God and never forget that "Neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."-Romans 8:38, 39

Yes, God is Love!-1 John 4:16

[Jayelle]

Lyons, this is what kinda drives me crazy about JW's (and similar types) - who are you trying to convince by just quoting bible verses?
As a Christian, I recognize the bible as an authoritative text, but I am not one who needs to be convinced that God loves me, or is a loving God.
But those who aren't Christians tend not to recognize the bible as any sort of authority, so why would they care what it says? It seems like just circular logic.

If you're actually trying to convince someone, why not look for reasons outside of the bible? Do you not see how someone who doesn't believe in the bible would just see your quotes as nonsense?

[Luet]

Edited.

[lyons24000]

If you're actually trying to convince someone, why not look for reasons outside of the bible? Do you not see how someone who doesn't believe in the bible would just see your quotes as nonsense?

Actually, I was not writing to a large group in general but to one person--Darth Petra. She said that at some times she questioned whether or not God really loved her and so I was quoting Bible verses to her, someone that claims Christianity or has a particular leaning towards the religion and the Bible as an authoritative source.

I do know what you mean, though. There are people who, when they ask, want to know how we can know that the Bible is actually of God. I am a firm believer in that you have to do more then just quote 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 and say, "'All Scripture is inspired of God' and therefore you must believe that because it makes that claim." I would never say or do that because it is just ineffective. If someone who claimed to be a prophet wanted to convince me he was a prophet he would have to do more then just say "I am a prophet so believe in me."

I just want you to understand this. You could have asked me if I was writing to convince non-Christians before jumping on me and insulting my religion, because I was trying to help someone who believed (either entirely or somewhat, I do not know) in Christianity and the Bible.

(And because you can't hear the tone of what someone types on a forum I am saying this in a soft, reasoning voice.)

[Jayelle]

First off - sorry about that, Luet, I should know better. I have a good friend who left the JW's and I am coloured by his experience. I shouldn't judge all based on a few, though. You're completely right.

And Secondly,

Actually, I was not writing to a large group in general but to one person--Darth Petra.

No, you weren't, because you started a new thread and posted it to everyone. There is nothing in your post to indicate it was just to one person - that is better accomplished in a PM anyway.

It frustrates me to see an entire post (the first in a new thread and therefore the beginning of a discussion) filled with bible verses- taken from many places in the bible and out of their context- and have that be some sort of explanation to everyone about the character of God.

What discussion were you hoping to spark with this?

[Luet]

There is nothing in your post to indicate it was just to one person - that is better accomplished in a PM anyway.

I totally agree. I myself have had PM conversations about religion based on posts made, once I know that the person is interested in discussing the topic. And if that is what you wanted to do Lyons, a PM would have been a better venue for it. In starting a topic like this, you are more likely to continue building a reputation for starting religious threads for no purpose other than to attempt to proselytize and start arguments.

And thank you Jan, for understanding.

[Darth Petra]

Actually, I was not writing to a large group in general but to one person--Darth Petra.

So now I feel bad about just lurking. Although I had a feeling that it was directed toward me.....

You can't prove scripture with scripture. You can quote it and back it up with life examples. But just because a book is telling you that it's true doesn't mean it is.

[lyons24000]

It frustrates me to see an entire post (the first in a new thread and therefore the beginning of a discussion) filled with bible verses- taken from many places in the bible and out of their context- and have that be some sort of explanation to everyone about the character of God.

As I have said before, many people in the Bible have taken bible verses "from many places in the Bible and out of their context". Paul was notorious for that. Look at this:

Romans 3:10-18

“There is not a righteous man, not even one; there is no one that has any insight, there is no one that seeks for God. All men have deflected, all of them together have become worthless; there is no one that does kindness, there is not so much as one.” “Their throat is an opened grave, they have used deceit with their tongues.” “Poison of asps is behind their lips.” “And their mouth is full of cursing and bitter expression.” “Their feet are speedy to shed blood.” “Ruin and misery are in their ways, and they have not known the way of peace.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Romans 3:10-12 is from Psalm 53:1-3
Romans 3:13a is from Psalm 5:9
Romans 3:13b is from Psalm 140:3b
Romans 3:14 is from Psalm 10:7
Romans 3:15 is from Proverbs 1:16
Romans 3:16-17 is from 59:7c-8a
Romans 3:18 is possibly a paraphrase of Genesis 20:11

In just eight verses Paul quoted seven different Scriptures from four Bible books to make one point. Many times he only partially quoted from each Scripture. He didn't even quote the entire passage! You cannot get onto me without implying that Paul and the other Bible writers were off base.

What discussion were you hoping to spark with this?

I was not hoping to spark any type of discussion. I just wanted to make sure that D_P would see what I wrote. I felt that if I had only added on to the already existing thread, D_P might not see it.

You can't prove scripture with scripture. You can quote it and back it up with life examples. But just because a book is telling you that it's true doesn't mean it is.

I do not agree with this statement. I am sorry that you feel that way.

In starting a topic like this, you are more likely to continue building a reputation for starting religious threads for no purpose other than to attempt to proselytize and start arguments.

I did not start this thread for the reasons in which you stated and I am sorry if you or other people think that. I do know that I should have handled this better then I did. I did not think that it would spark an entire debate. I only started this thread to make sure that D_P read it.

I apologize to any in addition to Jayelle who are offended. I put in a request to have this thread deleted but as of this moment, it is still here.

[Jebus]

tl, dfr

[lyons24000]

Thank you, Jebus.

Look, even Jebus recognizes that I'm right!

tl, dfr

T-True
L-Lyons
D-Darn
F-F******
R-Right!

[Luet]

I was not hoping to spark any type of discussion. I just wanted to make sure that D_P would see what I wrote.

I only started this thread to make sure that D_P read it.

As has already been mentioned, next time a much better way to address ONE person would be to PM them.

[lyons24000]

As has already been mentioned, next time a much better way to address ONE person would be to PM them.

And that is why I wrote:

I did not start this thread for the reasons in which you stated and I am sorry if you or other people think that. I do know that I should have handled this better then I did.

[wigginboy]

But those who aren't Christians tend not to recognize the bible as any sort of authority, so why would they care what it says?

I resent this somewhat. While I do not choose to make a huge deal about it, I just want to say that I am by no means a Christian. I do not follow the New Testament as scripture. But I still read the Bible almost daily. And Yes, I do read the NT, I just don't believe in it. I believe in God, but not Jesus. Thus I am not a Christian, but still follow the Bible, just the Old Testament. It botrhers me when people assume all non-Christians are not believers at all. Just because I discount some of the scripture Christians use does not mean for a second that I do not count the Bible as an authority. For me, however, only the OT or the Hebrew Bible it was based on are what I follow. No I am not Jewish, but it seems that is the best way I can describe my religious beliefs. I followe the OT with fervor, and OT law is my law.

[lyons24000]

I do not follow the New Testament as scripture. But I still read the Bible almost daily. And Yes, I do read the NT, I just don't believe in it. I believe in God, but not Jesus. Thus I am not a Christian, but still follow the Bible, just the Old Testament. It botrhers me when people assume all non-Christians are not believers at all.

She kind of has a point (and I am saying that in the least offensive sense possible). The Bible is made up of sixty-six books from Genesis-Revelation. I read the Quran, I read the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, I read the Deuterocanicals, Gnostic, and NT Apocrypha, and the Vitas, but I only hold that the Bible is inspired (that is including the Tanakh).

Although I read those I am not Muslim, Mormon, or Hindu and I do not hold their books to be authoritative. You do not hold the Bible to be authoritative because you do not follow all of the Bible. You follow the Tanakh. That doesn't make you an unbeliever and she never said you weren't and she didn't say that anyone who does not believe in the Bible is not a believer. Her statement was completely correct because nonChristians do not hold the Bible to be authoritative (and by Bible that means all of the Christian Scriptures and the Tanakh).

Do you understand? I re-read this to see if I made my point clear enough and I think I did but I'm dead tired and soooo...[/i]