The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

[neo-dragon]

And so it begins: First Afrocentric School to Open Tuesday

Something about this still rubs me the wrong way.

[Jayelle]

Wow. It's in a wing of another school? That is unfortunate. That just seems so much like segregation.

[Mich]

I'm pretty sure that's is the definition, which is what's dumb about it.

[neo-dragon]

Wow. It's in a wing of another school? That is unfortunate. That just seems so much like segregation.

Ha. I didn't even think of it like that. It'll be the "coloured wing". Nonetheless, the people who pushed for it seem to be happy that it's a start. I'm curious about what will happen if/when they open an Afrocentric secondary school. After all, the whole misguided reason for this is that 40% of black students are dropping out, but I don't think that they are dropping out in k-6.

[Gravity Defier]

I don't think that they are dropping out in k-6.

I haven't read the article and probably won't (sorry ), so I may be missing something super duper important here that makes what you said the better response, but without citing anything, I am under the impression that most problems causing kids to drop out at the more suitable ages of 16-18 started when they were in K-6. Or before then, at home. I see nothing out of the ordinary about trying to give more support to the youngin's. That's not to say I'm either in support of or against segregation.

[neo-dragon]

Maybe I just have a biased perspective because I'm a high school teacher, but I'm more interested in the effects of this Afrocenticity (what a dumb word ) when it's implemented in the grades where these kids are giving up on school. I do understand that if they're going to do this thing they have to start at square one, but if it ends when the kids are 11 and they then go to non-Afrocentric schools I doubt they'll be any more successful. In fact, that's one of the problems that I have with the whole idea. Whether it ends in grade 6 or grade 12 these kids are going to have to eventually enter a world where people aren't bending over backwards to celebrate their blackness. Toronto is one of the most multicultural cities on Earth. There of all places kids should be educated in a multicultural environment. Otherwise what are they being prepared for?

ETA:
Also, you'll notice that I'm avoiding the use of the term "segregation". I think that implies a forced separation. Enrolling in an Afrocentric school is of course done by choice, and I'm not paranoid enough to think that it will ever be otherwise. I guess one could call it voluntary segregation though.

[CezeN]

Sounds fun.










Lol. jk

[Dr. Mobius]

None of the five teachers is white, although several are bi-racial, said the principal, and all are female.

"We've done a fairly good job finding teachers who are representative of the diverse population of our school."

Eh?

[neo-dragon]

I'm a bit confused by that as well.

[Luet]

Okay, I was going to put this in the 'hate' thread but it has also always struck me as incredibly offensive and somehow racist. Is it just me?

Terrorist Hunting Permit

They appeared soon after 9/11 but are still around here in upstate NY and *always* on trucks (seriously, I've never seen one on a car). I mean, I understand that actual terrorists are bad but the idea of stupid rednecks driving around with these stickers really rubs me the wrong way.

[Gravity Defier]

Is it just me?

Nope. I think it encourages the racial profiling that became more acceptable as a result of 9/11. I mean, you know that likely isn't allowing for the possibility of a white or domestic terrorist of some other race. Unless it's just my prejudices that I was unaware of having, I think most people prone to that sort of display are thinking of Middle Easterners. Who knows, though. Maybe they're equal opportunity.

[locke]

Timothy McVeigh would probably have one of those bumper stickers on his truck, were he out and about today in the post 9-11 world.

I've debated all day mentioning the hysterical race baiting Michelle Malkin and Rush Limbaugh got up to today over some bullying and a bus scuffle. (a kid sat in a seat that wasn't "his" and he got beat up for it, according to limbaugh, now that we live in Obama's america black kids feel it's okay to beat up and intimidate white kids.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... enDocument

"The incident appears now to be more about a couple of bullies on a bus dictating where people sit," said Belleville Police Capt. Don Sax, who originally said Monday's attack may have been racially motivated.

D'Vante Lott, 16, said he was on the bus and witnessed the attack by the two black students.

The victim walked onto the bus, looking for an open seat, but students kept turning him down, as D'Vante said happened often with this student.

But Monday, the victim apparently tired of asking for a seat, D'Vante said, moved one student's book-bag off a seat, and just sat down.


The student next to him then started hitting the victim for moving his bag, D'Vante said.

Rush's response:
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.co ... ?ref=fpblg

"In Obama's America, the white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering, 'Yay, right on, right on, right on, right on.

I wonder if Obama's going to come to come to the defense of the assailants the way he did his friend Skip Gates up there at Harvard."

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/09/15/a- ... -st-louis/

police say the black-on-white student beating was completely unprovoked and racially motivated. Watch as many students cheer the attack — and the bus driver is nowhere to be seen

I wonder where President Obama will be. He turned his friend Henry Louis Gates’s anti-police temper tantrum into a “teachable moment.” What about this truly appalling incident?

The police initially said they thought the attack was racially motivated, then investigated, discovered the cause and that they had jumped to the wrong conclusion. Malkin doesn't believe in jumping to the wrong conclusion, one always jumps to the right conclusion, therefore, she has jumped to the conclusion that the police are bowing to political pressure. Those pesky facts, always getting in the way of the truthiness of a matter.

[Luet]

I'm glad it's not just me about the car stickers. I seethe every time I see one and have visions of running their truck off the road (okay, so maybe I need some healthy outlets for my anger ).

[neo-dragon]

With regards to the bus thing, since it mentions that it wasn't the first time that that particular student had touble getting a seat, I'm inclined to think that he's just not a well-liked kid. I don't see any evidence that race was the issue. Kids get bullied for being different in lots of ways. In my experience, race is in fact far from being the most significant one.

[buckshot]

Hey Luet" I wish you could ride around Deer Park with me for a day! I have seen the guy recently with the pair of confederate flags flying on his truck and a chain around a toy (black) doll's neck hanging over the tailgate! I'm not kidding a bit.

[locke]

With regards to the bus thing, since it mentions that it wasn't the first time that that particular student had touble getting a seat, I'm inclined to think that he's just not a well-liked kid. I don't see any evidence that race was the issue. Kids get bullied for being different in lots of ways. In my experience, race is in fact far from being the most significant one.

And in my experience riding a bus, seats are the most touchy issue there is. :-p I've seen and heard shouting/screaming to someone else to get out of a seat--it could have easily escalated to fight/incident. My strategy was to grab a seat in the first third sprawl myself out to take up about two thirds of the seat put my bag in the empty spot on the seat by the aisle and then not make eye contact so someone could try to sit down next to me. On that particular bus was when I first smelled weed, as the kids in the back four seats routinely got high on the ride home.

[Luet]

Hey Luet" I wish you could ride around Deer Park with me for a day! I have seen the guy recently with the pair of confederate flags flying on his truck and a chain around a toy (black) doll's neck hanging over the tailgate! I'm not kidding a bit.

Wow. Just...wow. Is this Deer Park, Washington (guessing based on your location)? I saw there is also a Deer Park, Texas which would seem more likely.

And in my experience riding a bus, seats are the most touchy issue there is. :-p I've seen and heard shouting/screaming to someone else to get out of a seat--it could have easily escalated to fight/incident. On that particular bus was when I first smelled weed, as the kids in the back four seats routinely got high on the ride home.

It never ceases to amaze me, how tame my school was. My bus rides were almost always uneventful and I don't think I ever saw or smelled pot the entire time I was in school.

[neo-dragon]

Mere months after the opening of Toronto's first "Afrocentric" school, created to address the problem of too many black kids dropping out, the pressure's on for the launch the first all-boys public school to address the issue of too many boys in general dropping out. Link.

So apparently if there's a segment of the student population which is underachieving, the answer is simply to isolate them in their own special school. Ya know, those obese kids aren't pulling their weight in phys-ed. Time for FAT KID SCHOOL!

[Jebus]

Fat Kid School? That sounds like a TV show of unparalleled success, has Fox been notified?

[locke]

Mere months after the opening of Toronto's first "Afrocentric" school, created to address the problem of too many black kids dropping out, the pressure's on for the launch the first all-boys public school to address the issue of too many boys in general dropping out. Link.

So apparently if there's a segment of the student population which is underachieving, the answer is simply to isolate them in their own special school. Ya know, those obese kids aren't pulling their weight in phys-ed. Time for FAT KID SCHOOL!

book I think all educators should read. There are some very disturbing trends about boys and education that have developed and are developing further in bad directions. We reformed schooling practice in the 70s to make school more girl friendly, and that should not be undone, but many educators, particularly early educators in the preschool and elementary phases, now treat boys like defective girls instead of working effectively with both sexes.

This trend is especially alarming for smart girls. Because private colleges can maintain a 50% (or near that) ratio of the sexes, but in order to do that, they have to raise the standards for girls making it much harder for a girl to get into Harvard today, for example, than it was ten years ago (because they receive a lot more applications from girls than from boys). Public colleges are naturally barred from such discrimination, and have to accept sex blind, but this has caused colleges to gradually inch up a few fractions of a percentage points every year in sex imbalance. This is alarming for colleges because once they reach about 58-62% girls (which many public colleges are approaching) they stop getting girl applicants, particularly the cream of the crop applicants, because girls want to go to a school where there are enough boys to go around (shockingly, most girls don't think it's all that appealing to go to public colleges that have a sex imbalance that's the reverse of MIT, for example). Some public colleges on the east coast have experimented with letting in boys who are not academically competitive at a college level to reduce their 65%+ imbalance of girls via a special program, but this is borderline legal and not hugely popular, it has its upsides and downsides. It's sort of ironic that 50 years ago it was prohibitively difficult for a girl to get into the elite private colleges because they were sexist and didn't think the female sex had the capacity/ability to handle college (and they should be staying home and making babies instead, really) whereas now it is getting almost as prohibitively difficult for girls to get into those schools because the majority of academic high achievers are girls, and thus the elite schools have an oversupply problem of elite female candidates.

But this issue can't be discussed at a policy level, because everyone's convinced that merely discussing it means we want to rollback all the incredible advances made in female education and put them back in the kitchen or something. No, but we do need to bring male education up to snuff with female education, because there is an imbalance in the quality of education they receive that is growing ever more radical with each passing year.

[neo-dragon]

Educators don't have time to read, but that's beside the point.

[CezeN]

Here's a question, related to some debates I've had in various places on the internet-

Do you think racism, based on experience, is justified enough?
Or still ignorant?

Also, from what I've gathered, one of the biggest things going for me in getting into my colleges, is the fact that I'm black/a minority.
In fact, out of everything, that would count as my "hook".
Do you think that's fair? Do you think that goes contrary to MLK's dream?

OF course, this is directed at any and everyone.

[Gravity Defier]

Do you think racism, based on experience, is justified enough?
Or still ignorant?

It's wrong. I've been on the receiving end of racist remarks/actions and yet I know it is the behavior of those specific individuals and not the race they belong to that was the cause of it. People are stupid across all races, if you even believe in the concept of there being different races or , if you do, anyone who is unsullied enough to claim only one. I'm more of a believer in cultural/ethnic divides.

Do you think that's fair?

I'm speaking from ignorance on the current state (okay, largely ignorant on the topic altogether) of things at the collegiate level but here's what I think: I think there should be diversity in schools and I think there should be some accounting for socio-economics (I believe this plays more of a role than "race" in likelihood to get to college) because, quite frankly, the odds are stacked against the financially poor kids getting a decent education in K-12 and they shouldn't be held entirely accountable for the failings of the system if they want to further their education. Whether or not one effects the other, I can't say with certainty but I wouldn't be surprised if that's how it worked out.

[neo-dragon]

Racism is never justified since it's always based on generalizations. In your whole life you'll never encounter a large enough sample of a particular ethnic group to be able to make a fair generalization, even if we ignore that pesky idea of each person being a unique individual.

As for the second question, it's hard to say whether I think it's fair or not. Ideally these things should be colour blind, but that's probably not realistic. I'll say this though; when I apply for teaching positions I make a point of mentioning my heritage/ethnicity in my cover letter. It's not hard to see that even in my highly multicultural community there is a lack of black educators, and I'm not above trying to take advantage of that.

[CezeN]

Yeah Gravity Defier, I agree. I mean, unless the remark was a scientifically verified trait, then I just never understood why some people think they can generalize a race.

Especially if it's on a psychological/emotional aspect, since those (I would say) are more influenced by your environment, and maybe slightly influenced by your genes and hormones.
Well, that's what I believe.

Also, in concern with the second question, I see what you're saying. Since, due to racism, minorities economic growth started late. Which is why, according to statistics, most ghettos are made up of minorities.
And since they can only go to schools in their district/area, they'll go to a less funded and less enriching school.

So, colleges looking out for underepresented minorities are just promoting equality. (That's basically how I interpret what you said)

Neo-dragon: lol me too
However, I feel like that gives me a slightly unfair edge over the people who don't get that special affirmative action? help.
I mean, I grew up in a decent area. If I have the same grade and everything as another kid, do I really deserve to go more than him? Since, even though I'm a minority, I'm not one of the impoverished ones who were setback by poverty?

[human.]

I think racism generally puts the picture in our minds (at least in America, growing up in the public school system) of Civil War/Civil Rights Movement with most spotlight on black/white racism, though increasingly here in Texas there is more racism towards Mexicans. But I'd just like to point out that there is also racism towards many other races that we sometimes overlook because the history that we're taught doesn't highlight it to the extent that it does with racism towards blacks.

If I remember correctly, Stossel has an interesting show about prejudices. I forget where this next point is from, but it might have been from one of his shows.

But essentially a point was made that colleges preferring minority students, as well as scholarships preferring them is still necessary in today's society. Because we haven't reached true equality, where everyone is looked at the same. In a Stossel video, a professor took a survey of his class and asked everyone who got their first job through a contact to raise their hand and it was predominantly the white students who raised their hands. And when he asked who had no help in getting their first job, so that they went through the general application process, etc., it was predominantly minorities who raised their hands. Which I found interesting. But the point was that minorities still don't have nearly as much access to the advantages that whites have and this selective selecting was a way to even the playing field.

Personally, I both like and dislike that colleges even consider one's minority status. One, being a woman who wants to go into engineering, I get a better chance simply because women are a minority in engineering. So I'm more likely to get into certain colleges than other people. Also, interestingly, I received a letter from a Princeton Alum through my school about applying to Princeton. Others in my class did too, and upon first look, we figured out that it was National Merit Semifinalist and Commended students who were receiving the letters. But upon further inspection, we noticed that three people who would have gotten letters under that qualification did not. The funny thing, though, was that it was only white kids who didn't get the letter (I put down that I was Asian on the PSAT because I'm half Japanese, so I was included). One, I liked that they selected based on ethnicity because it told me that Princeton is looking for non-white students and wants enough of them that they're sending out letters. But also, what about those three other students? They're just as good, but they don't get a letter because they're white? And why did my Mexican friend get into MIT, when my Asian friend did not get in, even though he is much smarter and all around more qualified than the Mexican (who is very qualified, just not nearly as much as the Asian)? Personally, I think everything should be based on merit. In Texas, we have the top ten percent rule, which while still controversial, makes a lot more sense to me since it helps those who are stuck in a school that may not be up to standards, but it still rewards people on merit.

(The top ten percent law essentially says that if you (student residing in Texas) are in the top ten percent of your graduating class, then all public colleges in the state of Texas must accept you. Though, that's just a summary, there are exceptions for when the school has filled its incoming class to a certain percentage that they can deny a student, among other exceptions.)

[starlooker]

On the "is racism based on one experience justifiable," I would say no.

For one thing, if we're looking at stereotypes like, "X group is lazy," or, "X group is really rude," if you already believe that, you're likely to look for examples that bolster your stereotype and ignore the examples that go against it. The experiences that you remember are going to be the ones that confirm what you already believe. So, no, personal experience with a couple of examples is not a good measure to go by due to this tendency.

On a personal note, I was robbed at gunpoint by a black man when I was in undergrad. However, because I was living in a city where diversity was the norm, it was relatively easy for me to dismiss this experience as being about the man who robbed me rather than to generalize it to all black people or black men. If I had been living in the midwest at the time, I wonder if it would have been a lot harder for me to keep from generalizing, due to not having a lot of other experiences to contrast with it. (This is not to say it would be right to do so, in any case, just that it might be harder not to.)

[CezeN]

though increasingly here in Texas there is more racism towards Mexicans

Because we're near the border, I'm guessing.

[jotabe]

I think racism is based on a bit more primal stuff than that: the genetic "wish" that more similar phenotipes will spread rather than different phenotipes.

I might be wrong, but i got the impression that racism usually is stronger against individuals of the same gender than towards the opposite gender.

Just my crazy hypotheses.

[zeroguy]

Personally, I both like and dislike that colleges even consider one's minority status. One, being a woman who wants to go into engineering, I get a better chance simply because women are a minority in engineering.

At least in computer science (sometimes considered engineering, sometimes not), the lack of women in the field does make a significant difference... the industry and field of study tends to be pretty damn sexist. Leaving it solely to merit would just continue the cycle, from what I've seen.

[neo-dragon]

Since this thread is about addressing equality issues in general and not just race related ones...

Time to amend `O Canada' lyrics

We, and all the girls and women of Canada, are not our country's "sons." Isn't it time that we changed "in all thy sons command" to the inclusive "in all of us command"? Yes, it's time!

Apparently this was a hot issue in parliament today. Is it just because I'm a man, or do women find this silly as well?

[starlooker]

Actually, no. I can see why they have a point about the lyrics change. Use of "men" or "sons" or "mankind" does tend to set my teeth on edge, a bit. And, yes, I understand that "oh, well, it means you, too." But I don't actually feel included. And it just feels so archaic these days.

I'm pretty pro-gender inclusive language. Because, really, why on earth not? Other than, "but then we'd have to make a change to something we've always said this way! And we don't like change!" Which, frankly, I do not find to be compelling as an argument. If what you're saying or singing is meant to apply to both genders, and there is an easy way to change the language so this is apparent, then what's the problem?

(That said, when an ultra-PC graduate professor informed me that instead of saying, "seminal work," I ought to say, "germinal work," I was annoyed. But I think that had more to do with the fact that it was the first time I had met her, it was a casual setting, and I really dislike people who correct other people's speech publicly.)

[Jayelle]

Though I agree with you, star, I find it frustrating when these things are changed with no thought to the poetry. The change to O Canada wouldn't be terrible, but it does disrupt the flow of the song.

There is a line in one of the hymns we sing at church "God in man made manifest" that the music director changed to "God in flesh made manifest". It's terrible. The man/manifest is a beautiful play on words, to change it to flesh is brutal.

[powerfulcheese04]

Hey Luet" I wish you could ride around Deer Park with me for a day! I have seen the guy recently with the pair of confederate flags flying on his truck and a chain around a toy (black) doll's neck hanging over the tailgate! I'm not kidding a bit.

Wow. Just...wow. Is this Deer Park, Washington (guessing based on your location)? I saw there is also a Deer Park, Texas which would seem more likely.

I know this is old, buuuut.. I would like to point out that the KKK has a bigger stronghold in rural Washington State than in Texas.


Sorry, I hate bad Texas stereotypes.

[jotabe]

Does the confederate flag necessarily have a racist meaning? I mean,why not a political meaning?