Random Question for the Grammar Nazis

[Rei]

The fact that it bore mentioning to a class of 60+ people implies that it happened often enough to suggest that either there were a lot of really careless people or at least a few of them didn't understand the rules.

[Eddie Pinz]

I had an interesting debate in my head when I was writing a recent post. The said post began as such, "It is not...". Now if I were to contract it, should I write "It's not..." or "It isn't..." or does it even make a difference?

Now I was thinking it doesn't matter, but if I were to do it I should use "It isn't...". Just for the simple fact that so many people struggle with the concept of it's vs its. I wish I could remember the Strong Bad song.

[starlooker]

Oh, if you want possessive, it's just I-T-S.
But if you want a contraction, it's I-T apostrophe S.
Scalywag.

[Rei]

Heee... that one came up in class, too.

[Luet]

This isn't grammar but I figured it was close enough and you guys would be able to provide edification.

This came up while watching Jeopardy tonight. In school, I was taught that the vowels were "a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y and w." My husband has never heard of "w" being included. What were you taught and is the above definition considered accurate?

[v-girl]

I have never heard of W being included. I was taught sometimes Y, but that's it. I have no idea what is right though.

[KennEnder]

Yeah, I was taught that "y" and "w" were sometimes vowels (aka semi-vowels or soft consonants?) to be included as "additive" to the standard list of 5 vowels.

"Y" is pretty easy to use as a full vowel (take the words "pretty" and "easy" for example) but "w" is a lot more difficult... it is more of the invisible vowel or soft consonant, I guess. It's fairly obvious that the "w" in "vowel" is not a consonant, and you could basically get the same sound from an alternate spelling (foul/fowl). It is even used almost "silently" in many words (bowl vs. bole? know vs. no? Compare to "now" or "howl" where "w" is very much an influence in the pronunciation.) The name even sort of implies that it is a vowel of sorts: "double-u."

But where, if anywhere, does "w" get used like an outright (solo) vowel? I don't think I know of any in the English language, although there are several "acceptable" words in scrabble dictionaries that are Welsh in origin: 'cwm' (which rhymes with 'room') and 'crwth' (which rhymes with 'truth').

[KennEnder]

As a comment on the actual poll here, I was in school long before the introduction of such things as 'smilies' so I have no idea what the "rules" governing their punctuation might be... or that there SHOULD even be rules governing them! Heck, I have never even considered using them in 'real' writing. I don't know which smilies are best used after 'lol' and which after 'jk' or if there are appropriate/inappropriate smilies to use on memos to my boss...

I think we're lucky if people using sentences with in it are spelling whole words and writing whole sentences, rather than cul8r bff or lylab!

So, I vote option 2, which at least leaves the smiley out of the sentence if not the entire document. (jk)

got2go

[Rei]

I've never heard of W being counted as a vowel in English, and, I'll be honest, I do not think it should be. It is a glide, to be sure, but if it is a vowel, it is never independently so. There isn't even any consensus on whether Y takes the form of or [j] in diphthongs, so it seems a stretch to call W a vowel. And I don't think we can consider anything the Scrabble dictionary accepts without other evidence behind it as the standards for what is a word or not a word in it are notably sketchy.

[Ela]

Haha, KennEnder, I'm older than you, but that didn't stop me from voting in the poll or having an opinion about it.

[zeroguy]

I've also never heard of 'w' being called a vowel.

As a comment on the actual poll here, I was in school long before the introduction of such things as 'smilies' so I have no idea what the "rules" governing their punctuation might be... or that there SHOULD even be rules governing them!

It's not like they teach this stuff in schools... At least, I hope not. They certainly didn't when I was in earlier grades.

[KennEnder]

It's not like they teach this stuff in schools... At least, I hope not. They certainly didn't when I was in earlier grades.

Well, if (or when?) they do, I will totally give up any hope for US schools that I have hung onto so tenaciously!

Heck, I remember a time when "fish" was both singular AND plural. Classroom lessons do change... as does the language. But some things are better left out of the curriculum.

PS. 'W' is a strange case all around. It behaves like a consonant as far as where it shows up in words (like between two other vowels or in front of an 'h' or at the end of a word, etc), but it behaves like a vowel in your mouth (ie, it does not constrict the air or stop it like other consonants do).

PPS. I guess if I were to be classified as a letter, I would be a 'w' - which is a matter I have never considered before. So, from now on, 'w' is my favorite letter.

PPPS. Why do people often have a favorite NUMBER but never a favorite letter? I've never heard of someone talk about their favorite letter before!

[starlooker]

Wait. Back up. "Fish" isn't singular and plural anymore?

But -- one fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish?

[KennEnder]

I think there's a "grandfather clause" that allows "fish" to be singular and plural for old people and old poems/songs. But once we go and our poems/songs are forgotten, so is the double use.

Main Entry:
fish
Pronunciation:
\ˈfish\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural fish or fish·es

As a happy note, this dictionary actually still lists "fish" as the first entry for the plural, but others I have seen now reverse it. AND, I actually saw a school text book that didn't even mention the possibility that "fish" could be both. Also, when I hear 'people' talk, they usually use 'fishes' (except in that poem, oddly enough).

When I was in school, "fishes" was only proper under the same kinds of circumstances as "persons" or "peoples" - both of which get overused by the media, in my opinion.

[Eddie Pinz]

Wait. Back up. "Fish" isn't singular and plural anymore?

But -- one fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish?

I agree. Fishes sounds absolutely terrible. They might as well make it fishies. At least that is fun to say.

I hate persons and peoples. Why can't people(haha wasn't even trying) just say the word "people"? It isn't that hard.

I also hate the word hanged. *cringes* I think is sounds appalling.

[Eaquae Legit]

"Hanged" is actually a valid word, but it only applies to humans. Everything else gets hung, but humans get hanged. Why? No idea.

"Persons" gets used when you have a plural number of individuals who are being referred to collectively despite the fact that they don't form a conceptual group.

"Fishes" is just wrong.

W is not a vowel in English. It's a bilabial fricative, IIRC.

[Eddie Pinz]

Oh I know hanged is valid, but I still hates it. In my book, humans get hung...always have...always will...

[Eaquae Legit]

It is sort of dissonant, yeah.

[KennEnder]

Another thing that often gets me is the difference between American and British English. Oh, not the standard "-er" vs. "-re" (theater/theatre) or "-or" vs "-our" (color/colour) - those are 'famous.' I mean subtle things and even GRAMMAR differences!

Things like these usually just made me think I was plain old stupid, because I could just never seem to remember the 'real' way to say it or spell it:

(American form vs. British form)

• traveling vs. travelling
  counseling vs. counselling
  modeling vs. modelling
  equaling vs. equalling
  enrollment vs. enrolment
  catalog vs. catalogue
  argument vs. arguement
  judgment vs. judgement
  jewelry vs. jewellery
  draft vs. draught
  plow vs. plough
  learned vs. learnt
  spelled vs. spelt
  pajamas vs. pyjamas
  dreamed vs. dreamt
  leaped vs. leapt
  forecast vs. forecasted
  lit vs. lighted
  fit vs. fitted
  knit vs. knitted
  strove vs. strived

That's probably enough to give you an idea of how confused I was as a student. Why didn't my teachers explain that I would SEE such differences and that they were "normal," like the theatre/theater thing? I will never forgive them!

This is a cool page I found looking for some references: http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwesl/egw/jones/differences.htm

Another cool page is: http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwesl/egw/jones/words.htm

[starlooker]

I'm always a bit taken aback when my Canadian pweb friends refer to me as a "counsellor" instead of a "counselor."

When my face-to-face Canadian friends pronounce the word process as "proh-cess" rather than "prah-cess" I used to giggle. Then I began to find it charming.

[VelvetElvis]

Quite a few of those are used in american english, too.

[Rei]

W is not a vowel in English. It's a bilabial fricative, IIRC.

/w/ is a labio-velar glide. Another name for it is semi-vowel. Basically it is formed by moving positions in the mouth, whereas all other consonant sounds which are not glides (so anything but /w/ or /j/) are simply a stationary position, in the case of plosives, a stationary position followed by a release. Y is only called both a consonant and a vowel in English because sometimes it represents /j/ and other times /i/. W is always either /w/ or an upside down "w," which are the voiced and voiceless forms of the same labio-velar glide.

[Rei]

I'm always a bit taken aback when my Canadian pweb friends refer to me as a "counsellor" instead of a "counselor."

To be honest, I always assumed that "counselor" was a typo or something of the sort.

[Oliver Dale]

W is not a vowel in English. It's a bilabial fricative, IIRC.

/w/ is a labio-velar glide. Another name for it is semi-vowel. Basically it is formed by moving positions in the mouth, whereas all other consonant sounds which are not glides (so anything but /w/ or /j/) are simply a stationary position, in the case of plosives, a stationary position followed by a release. Y is only called both a consonant and a vowel in English because sometimes it represents /j/ and other times /i/. W is always either /w/ or an upside down "w," which are the voiced and voiceless forms of the same labio-velar glide.

Damn, that was hot.

[wizzard]

haha, you beat me to it, Rei. Bilabial fricatives do exist in English, but only in select dialects. When someone "pronounces the 'h' " in words like 'what' and 'whip', it's a voiceless bilabial fricative. Phonetically speaking, [w] is almost identical to , so I guess you could call it a vowel.

But going back to "rules" about things that should never be used in formal writing (the original point of this thread), I had a discussion with my friends today about the proper spelling of the contraction of "I'm gonna" to 2 syllables. I usually spell it "I'mma", but other people said "I'ma", or even "Imma" or "Ima". What do you guys think? (This is one of my favorite contractions in English, because it takes 5 syllables "I am going to", and reduces it to 3 segments)

[Eaquae Legit]

Haha, that's what I get for trying to read the IPA chart cold. Good thing there's no one else at work to hear me making WWwwwwuh noises. Oh, there it is, under co-articulated consonants. "Voiced labialised velar approximant." Almost as sexy as Anglo-Saxon's velar fricative.

[Rei]

Damn, that was hot.

It's all for you, Ollie, baby.

As for /u/ and /w/, they are almost identical, save for the velar aspect. And that makes all the difference.

On a more random note, /B/ is a bilabial trill -- which does indeed exist in at least one language somewhere -- and more or less sounds like a little kid playing with a toy truck. Bbbbrrrmmm bbbrrrrrmm.

[KennEnder]

Wizzard...

I can't say I've ever even HEARD of a more contracted contraction of "I am going to" than "I'm gonna." ' But, having to make a choice, I'd make my own...

I'mma going to school.

I'm a-going to school.

I s'pose I'd a-gone widda last 'n.

[Eaquae Legit]

I'm-a pop a cap in yo' ass?

Good heavens, the orthography on that one is weird. I have no idea, but I suspect "I'ma" or "I'm-a". "I'mma" changes the sound of the I, and it really needs an apostrophe, because "I'm" is not being contracted at all.

"I'm a-going" has a slightly different stress, and sounds more hillbilly than gangster, in my mind. Or like Trigger the vulture in the animated Robin Hood movie: "I'm a-gittin', I'm a-gittin!"

Side note, Kenn, did you realise your sig says "snare," not "share"?

[zeroguy]

"Hanged" is actually a valid word, but it only applies to humans. Everything else gets hung, but humans get hanged. Why? No idea.

"Unlucky men are hanged, lucky men are hung."

I can't say I've ever even HEARD of a more contracted contraction of "I am going to" than "I'm gonna." ' But, having to make a choice, I'd make my own...

There's a very relevant "Ozy and Millie" strip about this, but I don't have time to find it at the moment. I'll find it later, unless someone wants to get it for me...

Edit: Reading these threads is very strange if you're familiar with the *chans... "As for /u/ and /w/, they are almost identical," is just too funny.

[Luet]

I just have to say...I really love my pweb word nerds. *hugs*


And this has reminded me of the great cd/dvd by They Might Be Giants called "Here Come the ABCs" which I ostensibly got for my niece but it has some of the catchiest songs and coolest videos, check it out if you've never seen it. Some of my favs are "QU", "D&W" and "Alphabet Lost & Found"

http://www.giantkid.net/

[starlooker]

I'm always a bit taken aback when my Canadian pweb friends refer to me as a "counsellor" instead of a "counselor."

To be honest, I always assumed that "counselor" was a typo or something of the sort.

*very deeply amused*

I do have an M.A. in counseling, you know. Somewhere along the line, they made me learn to spell it, too.

~~~~~

In other news, I now have the Sesame Street song about the letter W in my head.

Oh what is the letter we love?
The one that we're extra fond of?
It's not any trouble, you
know it's a double-you
when you hear wuh-wuh-wuh-WUH!

[starlooker]

OOOOH

Now that we have all the grammar folks in one thread, can someone explain to me if/where there's an apostrophe in Master's degree? Is it a masters degree, a master's degree, or a masters' degree? What if you have several people getting their _______ degree? Does it change?

(They made me learn to spell "counselor," but no one taught me to punctuate my degree. I find that annoying.)

[Oliver Dale]

You are deemed a master of your subject, and the degree belongs to you.

Master's degree.

[Oliver Dale]

Oh, and if multiple people are receiving the degree: masters' degrees. If you are receiving multiple degrees yourself: master's degrees.