What's the point of organised religion?

Postby **Eaquae Legit** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:11 pm

If "wasting your breath" means "having propaganda fall on deaf ears" then I'm sorry.

I have never consciously posted propaganda, and I assure you I am far more critical than you believe I am. Thank you for the apology, though.

I know that much of what I say counts as that, so don't get angry, I know that much of what I say is the same sort of thing.

THEN DON'T POST IT. It's really that simple.

However, I don't think that it's a waste.

It's still rude and it's still against the rules of the forum.

As somebody said, all teens question their beliefs, and that's what I'm doing here.

It's possible to still be respectful.

So, I would like to request that you are careful about what you chose to censure.

I am.

If I'm being "ignorant" or "unhistorical" (is that a word?) please correct me.

I'd love to, but you've never listened yet, and you still discount what I say as propaganda. I don't have the time to waste. Go read some books on the study of religion.

As to rudeness or "juvenile anti-religion angst" please tell me why what I said was rude and maybe I'll learn something.

I have, multiple times. You ignore it or disregard it.

I know that many of my beliefs are inflammatory, but keep in mind that I find the insistence in the belief of God and the infallibility of scripture mildly insulting as well, and those sentiments are thrown around more often than I push my beliefs.

Right now, I see the theists in here trying to explain what and why they believe. Precious little proselystising is going on here from the theist side, and an awful lot from the atheist side. You are one of the major perpetrators.

I try my best to understand that there's not much I can do to change the fact that my beliefs are very incompatible with those of others. I just hope that you do the same.

I know my religious beliefs aren't shared by the majority. Yet I still manage not to call people or their faiths stupid. I just hope that you begin to do the same.

eriador · Postby **eriador** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:20 pm

Thanks FT. I like your methods. Way to go getting the discussion on track and intelligent (no thanks to me).

HK, I appreciate your point. Yes, I know that what I say is offensive, but I feel like I have a certain right to say it. The point of this forum is for to everybody to share their opinions. I know when I type something that somebody will take offense. However, I agree that I should think more about alternative ways to frame it. I know that I've been childish in the past, and I know that I could be more polite. However, I also feel like I learn more when people are put on edge. I don't enjoy talking about religion when people aren't at least a little bit riled up. Perhaps my methods are controversial and self-centered, but you know what, it just worked. Before I typed that sentence I had never realized how self-centered I was being. I need to think about it. Maybe this will help me change, and maybe you'll realize how effective my methods can be.

anonshadow · Postby **anonshadow** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:23 pm

We might want to clear up a few things. Atheism is not an affirmative belief. It's a LACK of belief. That means that atheistic brainwashing is really just no instruction in what to believe, so it doesn't REALLY count. Anyway, my more intense, anti-religious beliefs are my own, I don't share them with my parents, and I don't know anybody who really thinks in the same way that I do, so I'm pretty sure that brainwashing has nothing to do with my beliefs.

I disagree. As someone who has been athiest in the past, I think that athiesm is absolutely an affirmative belief. Being an athiest is not just about not being Christian, or Jewish, or Buddhist--it is about being an athiest. I wouldn't classify those beliefs of mine as just being a lack of something, anymore than I would classify opposing gay marriage as not being an "affirmative belief." Maybe athiesm is just a lack of something to you--to many others, it's much more.

As to the rest of what you said: I don't feel the same way as you, and I don't think I should. Criticizing me for having a different opinion about EL's religious discussion is against the rules of this forum.

I am not criticizing you for having a different opinion. I am criticizing you for being rude toward another member, and I am talking about Ali as a person who knows her to be a very respectful person.

When we met, I was athiest. Shortly after that, I decided I was pagan. Why haven't I seen these terribly barred teeth of propaganda, then, if she indeed has it?

However, if my beliefs are continually challenged, ostensibly for the behalf of the "rules", expect to see a lot more of me in the "Discrimination Against Atheists" thread.

There are many athiests here who are not constantly called out for being rude. If you are rude and called on it, that doesn't mean that people are "discriminating" against you.

hive_king · Postby **hive_king** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:29 pm

Eriador, I am probably as strong and as avowed an atheist as anyone on this board including you. (Well, maybe not Steve. No one is that atheist-core.) I get along well with most of the theists on the board, and am even friends with a few of them. It isn't just because you're an atheist.

Jebus · Postby **Jebus** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 pm

However, I also feel like I learn more when people are put on edge.

Well you may feel like you do, but I can assure you that you don't.

As to what I would do? I honestly don't know, since I haven't had that problem yet. I suppose I'd spend a lot of time looking very intently at all the religions I'd touched before, and try to see if it wasn't simply misunderstanding on my part. If that didn't help, and I still really felt alone, I don't know. Not much of an answer, I know, but I'm not very imaginative today.

So no chance of you starting up your own religion and declaring me pope?

Postby **Eaquae Legit** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 pm

Depends. What's the benefit to me?

Jebus · Postby **Jebus** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:50 pm

Are you kidding me? Having the pope as a friend, you'd get into the Big Guy's house no problem.

Postby **Eaquae Legit** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:52 pm

(Mod-EL)

Yes, I know that what I say is offensive, but I feel like I have a certain right to say it.

Not here you don't. This is a privately-owned forum and by registering you accept the rules here against offensive behaviour. If you violate those rules, you have zero right to stay.

That said, I never like having to ban people (aside from porn spammers). So I'd rather you weren't offensive, and stayed.

Postby **Eaquae Legit** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:53 pm

True, Jebus. I'll think about it.

eriador · Postby **eriador** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:06 pm

It's not just because I'm an atheist, it's my particular brand of atheism, which is quite abrasive and aggressive. Sure, I understand how other people have an easier time getting along. I'm sorry for causing trouble. I'm willing to work to improve how I get along with the community. But changing my attitude will only go so far. I know that part of this conflict (I'm not sure HOW much) is because of my beliefs. I love having a place to discuss how I feel and what I think and I know that if I want to continue to enjoy it I have to change how I act. But the change CAN NOT BE UNILATERAL. I don't think it's fair to ask me to accommodate all of you guys without you doing something to accommodate me, I don't think that it would be in the spirit of the place to force me to conform to the standards that everybody else does. This place is about diversity.

Don't read this -^. It's just me whining. Only read what is below:

Okay guys. I know. I've been bad, and I'll do my best to improve. I'm sorry.

P.S. I do want what's above to get read, but don't do it. Half of me wants it read, the other half doesn't. I agree with what I'm saying, but it totally goes against what I'm promising to do. So never mind.

hive_king · Postby **hive_king** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:08 pm

May I ask what changes you would exact from the rest of the board?

Jebus · Postby **Jebus** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:14 pm

"particular brand of atheism"?

It's not a "brand" of atheism that some chose to follow and some don't, it's your personality (obstinate jerk) mixed with atheism.

anonshadow · Postby **anonshadow** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:15 pm

Why would you post something and then say, "don't read this"?

Don't be passive aggressive.

Postby **Eaquae Legit** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:15 pm

I don't think that it would be in the spirit of the place to force me to conform to the standards that everybody else does. This place is about diversity.

No one else has been repeatedly and egregiously violating the rules of the forum. You are expected to conform to exactly the same forum rules as everyone else. They are not going to change. This place is about respect as much as it is about diversity.

eriador · Postby **eriador** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:22 pm

However, I also feel like I learn more when people are put on edge.
Well you may feel like you do, but I can assure you that you don't.

How can you be sure? I know that I think more about things when I'm a little riled up, and I know from experience that conversations where there is some sort of conflict are much more interesting and provocative than sedate ones.

Right now, I see the theists in here trying to explain what and why they believe. Precious little proselystising is going on here from the theist side, and an awful lot from the atheist side. You are one of the major perpetrators.

Just switch the terms and I feel the same way.

Not here you don't. This is a privately-owned forum and by registering you accept the rules here against offensive behaviour. If you violate those rules, you have zero right to stay.

Of course I don't have a LEGAL right, but I think that, having read over the rules just prior to writing this, the purpose of this forum would not be advanced by silencing me, and in that way, I have something of a responsibility to share my opinions. Yeah, that sounds stupid to me too. I still think it's in the collective interest to allow me to share.

HK, I have no idea. Anyway, I told you not to read that!

mr_thebrain · Postby **mr_thebrain** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:25 pm

i don't find you offensive, and i'm completely for you expressing you opinions.

so i say it again.. get down with your bad self

eriador · Postby **eriador** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:27 pm

Thanks Brain, I needed that. Honestly. You're a nice guy.

mr_thebrain · Postby **mr_thebrain** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:29 pm

shhhh don't let that get around.

Postby **Eaquae Legit** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:29 pm

EL-as-Mod

It is in the collective interest that the sour and poisonous air this forum has taken on be cleared away. This is my job and I will do what it takes to accomplish that. I do not like being draconian like this, and I have never had to before. But when long-standing members, atheist and theist, who have enjoyed many debates - both firey and sedate - over the years are complaining that it's gone sour in here, I have to step in. You have no legal right to be offensive in this place, and you have no moral right either, not if it is poisoning the forum for everyone else.

mr_thebrain · Postby **mr_thebrain** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:32 pm

perhaps people just need to lighten up.

of course i've always thought that about the overly religious types.

eriador · Postby **eriador** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:49 pm

So have I Brain. But I will do my part in lightening up:

Puppies!

mr_thebrain · Postby **mr_thebrain** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:51 pm

you insensitive a******!

one of my dogs just died!

you're dead to me now eri.

fawkes · Postby **fawkes** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:00 pm

The sixth puppy is defacating! I find that highly offensive!

luminousnerd · Postby **luminousnerd** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:08 pm

The sixth puppy is defacating! I find that highly offensive!

And this is why I always google with the filters off...

You're missing out on five cute puppies just by filtering your results. The pooing one is number 12 for me.

"Every time you filter your google results, God kills five puppies"

eriador · Postby **eriador** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:09 pm

But you don't mind the seventh!?

fawkes · Postby **fawkes** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:11 pm

... I totally missed that one. Maybe my brain blocked it out because IT'S HORRIBLE!!! Seriously, I did not need to see that.

luminousnerd · Postby **luminousnerd** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:16 pm

Which one's the seventh for you filtering folk?

fawkes · Postby **fawkes** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:17 pm

A woman with body paint.

luminousnerd · Postby **luminousnerd** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:19 pm

A woman with body paint.

ROFL

I find it highly ironic and hilarious that if you DON'T filter your results, you don't see that.

AnthonyByakko · Postby **AnthonyByakko** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:43 pm

People don't have a right not to be offended. People don't have a right to be respected.

There's a fundemental difference between tolerance and respect. People have the right to be tolerated - nothing else. Hell, I'm still warned from when I first joined; and I get insulted and disrespected all the time here. I don't expect anything less. I don't demand respect or niceness; just toleration. It's not as if this place was a bastion of happy-fun-love before recent times - I'm sure the oldies can remember similar situations in the past. Remember Leto?

But at any rate, this thread seems over to me.

hive_king · Postby **hive_king** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:44 pm

I miss having Leto around, anyone hear from him?

AnthonyByakko · Postby **AnthonyByakko** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:51 pm

Fortunately, NO.

Firegirl · Postby **Firegirl** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:30 am

How did a thread on the purpose of organized religion get switched to talking about googling puppies. Sure they are living animals, but that was quite a tangent that ought to be in the Milagre Town Square section and not this thread.

AnthonyByakko · Postby **AnthonyByakko** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:21 am

because no one here knows how to have a spirited discussion.

luminousnerd · Postby **luminousnerd** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:26 am

*grin*

What's the point of organised religion?

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