Fan Fiction

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!

Do you like fan fiction?

Yes
1
8%
no
9
69%
WTF is fan fiction?
1
8%
Used to, but not anymore
2
15%
 
Total votes: 13

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Fan Fiction

Postby Froth » Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:53 am

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Postby powerfulcheese04 » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:01 am

I think you will find that, in general, pwebbers are not proponents of fan fiction.



I know that I don't like it. If you feel creative enough to be a writer, make up your own universe, don't pilfer somebody else's.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:12 am

OSC actively protects his copyrighted work, including sending take-down notices to any fan fiction website hosting works using his characters, worlds, etc.
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Postby Yebra » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:29 pm

If you feel creative enough to be a writer, make up your own universe, don't pilfer somebody else's.
I've got to take a little issue with this. I don't read a lot of fanfiction and I've never written any but I've heard people describe it as an excellent way to find your feet as a writer because having an established world to play with makes it less of unscalable wall and lets people transition gently from people who maybe don't regard themselves as writers to people who do. Writing is like most things something that gets better the more you do it and if people choose to do that in well-established universes, all power to them really. Publishing (or putting it out at all) is naturally a more complicated matter.

It's not like it's the end of the line either, various franchises have ways of handling that quite well with at least a little bit of a revolving door between fan-fic and published authors going on. In a fairly open-universe like say, Dr Who or Star Trek I see no reason why it being someone else's universe holds you back from creating great writing in it. I'd be more impressed with good Enderverse fanfiction because it's not a world with a storytelling engine but a series of connected stories that for the most part have been told. I guess the trouble is OSC is kinda saturating the market in Enderverse stories I never really wanted to know so fanfiction seems slightly redundant (I like the Shadow series and First Meetings, but if someone had told me War of Gifts was fanfiction I'd only have been slightly surprised).
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Postby Mich » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:50 pm

Back in elementary school I almost exclusively wrote in what is apparently fan fiction. It was mostly just inserting my character (who, I am happy to say, was not very Mary Sue) into pre-established storylines so that he could hang out with the main characters and be involved in the original story. I find these stories kind of embarrassing, now, but they were all tied together with a somewhat frame story, and so I keep them on my hard drive. Locked away.

Fanfiction communities, however, I find frightening. When I wrote it, I had no idea other people did. But now people share, people compare, people run the asylum. There are words and memes and in-groups. Fanfiction is scary.
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Postby locke » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:20 pm

OSC, who said that Rowling was in the wrong on the lexicon lawsuit because everyone should be able to use her work however they wanted,* is one of the most vigorous opponents of fan fiction amongst authors, as Syphon said, there isn't much posted because take downs are actively pursued.

And none of the founders of pweb approve of fan fic so it was never an issue here, we'd never host it or promote it.


*this characterization is grossly misrepresenting his hypocrisy on this issue, but that's the gist of it.
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Postby Froth » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:39 pm

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Last edited by Froth on Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
*Insert hilariously accurate quote about the way the world works and a tad sexist about woman, that 99.9% of the forum wont laugh at, but Ill rofl for hours at*

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Postby Syphon the Sun » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:15 pm

She was on the wrong side. She claimed she had the right to control anything about the Harry Potter world, not anything within the Harry Potter world.

Ultimately, the judge agreed that she didn't have that right, but gave her the injunction anyway because he used "too many" verbatim quotes, which was a question of fact, not law. Basically, his use was permissible, but he needed fuller citations or less identical verbiage.

It would certainly be hypocritical of OSC if he were actively prohibiting unauthorized/unofficial Enderverse commentary/reference materials. But he's not. In fact, he encourages that, which you know full-well, considering you were involved in the timeline/encyclopedia pweb used to have.

You weren't just oversimplifying it; you were completely transforming it into something so far from the truth that it's not even remotely recognizable anymore. It certainly wasn't "the gist of it."

Fictional works using another's fictional work: bad. Non-fictional works referencing and commenting on another's fictional work: not bad.
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Postby locke » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:00 pm

yes it's a transformation, but she was right to sue considering the amount of large passages of text VanDerArk used in the Lexicon.

Take it from me, if we'd tried to publish the compendium and other stuff we had (which, at least the stuff I wrote, wasn't reliant on quotes) we'd have been sued in a heartbeat by OSC. So knowing he wouldn't have hesitated to use legal action against us, I found it rather hypocritical of him to lambast Rowling for doing exactly what he would have done in her situation. Rowling allowed plenty online, more than OSC does (like fanfiction), and plenty of nonfiction about her and her world and characters was published, VanderArk crossed the line in the amount of her text he was going to use for the book.
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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:13 am

Personally I love the concept of fanfiction, and used to love reading it, but... well, my standards have raised over time.

There's just so much garbage fanfiction, that the good stuff isn't worth going through the rest to get to. Sure, some writers are paranoid (in some cases rightfully) so about losing control of their work, but fanfiction is probably my favorite medium for speculating about unanswered questions in a series.
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:06 am

So I guess I should probably keep that Theresa Wiggin/Colonel Graff piece I've been working on to myself, I take it.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:32 pm

Funny, I don't recall seeing anything about him using large passages of text. In fact, most of her complaints regarding verbatim language revolved around the fact that he used too many small phrases identical to her own without properly citing them. Yes, she had the right to sue and seek an injunction, given the fact that she suffered no real damages, especially considering her own admissions governing how much help his online version was to her. But as a torts professor once told me, you can sue anybody for anything. The key is to sue the right people for the right thing.

Her chief complaint was that she didn't think he had the right to publish a piece of non-fiction reference/commentary regarding her Harry Potter universe. That belief was flat-out rejected by the court for the simple reason that it's not even remotely true.

If her real problem had been that he had used "too many" quotes, the reaction wouldn't have been to take the publisher to court. She didn't try to contact the author or publisher, despite the fact that she had the means (and had contacted the author and visited his website many times). She didn't ask them to remove some of the verbatim language or properly attribute her for it. Her legal team's first response was to file an action, which is not only silly, it's piss-poor lawyering on their part, if that's what she was really concerned with. But she thought that she could better provide a reference guide and he had no right to provide one of his own.

As far as your argument about OSC goes, sorry if I won't just "take it from [you]." There's no reason for me to think he'd have filed suit against you for trying to publish the materials pweb used to house because a) he'd lose and b) he let it stay on pweb for years. He's been very active in keeping fan fiction about his characters and worlds off the internet. If he were at all concerned about non-fiction reference guides, compendiums, or commentary, you think he would have let pweb keep the stuff it had online for so long? Everybody knows he's very active in protecting his copyright, but he knows that his copyright protection doesn't give him any power to quash non-fictional works about his fictional world.

It's a faked-up hypocrisy that you created by making wild accusations and assumptions without gathering a single iota of evidence to support your kooky ideas while discounting the whole host of evidence to the contrary. You can't just play Let's Pretend and then try to convince everybody that your imagined events actually happened.
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Postby Froth » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:20 pm

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Last edited by Froth on Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
*Insert hilariously accurate quote about the way the world works and a tad sexist about woman, that 99.9% of the forum wont laugh at, but Ill rofl for hours at*

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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:53 pm

There are a few problems with what you're saying, though, Froth.

First of all, she had no problem with the online version that he had created. In fact, she openly admitted that she preferred using it over re-reading the books when she couldn't remember certain details. She even gave him an award for it. Her action was not against the author himself (it was against the publisher) and did not involve the online version at all. So it isn't a matter of one being free and the other costing money; it's a matter of both costing money. At that point, you can't realistically claim lost profits. Would you be more willing to buy the official version, written by the author herself, or an unofficial version written by a guy nobody had heard of? The answer most people would give is probably the former. That being said, there is no protection against other people writing non-fiction works about your fictional works, regarding of whether you've published your own non-fictional work about it (or were planning to do so).

As far as fan fiction is concerned, however, it directly violates copyright protections that you actually have. It doesn't matter whether the author is losing money because of your hack job at telling stories in his universe. Intellectual property is still property, which affords owners certain rights. If I don't want you playing baseball in my backyard without my permission, I don't have to let you. If I don't want you using my characters and worlds without my permission, I don't have to let you.

Nevermind the huge potential for litigation you can face if you let fans publish (online or off) their own fictional accounts of your work.
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Postby Young Val » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:55 pm

Technically, fan fiction is considered a violation of copyright. A lot of authors don't care, but a lot of them do. Their characters and the worlds that they build are their intellectually property. They have every right to stop someone from using and/or profiting from their intellectual property. Even if you think that writing fan fiction is harmless, it's still not legal.

I'm particularly well-versed in this, given the whole Salinger fiasco that went down recently. That was damn fun.

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Postby Froth » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:15 pm

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*Insert hilariously accurate quote about the way the world works and a tad sexist about woman, that 99.9% of the forum wont laugh at, but Ill rofl for hours at*

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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:36 pm

The only way to ensure your intellectual property rights are secure is to actively protect them. Think of certain trademarks that have overtaken the generic noun, e.g. xerox or kleenex. When this happens, courts can (and do) declare the trademarked term to be a generic word, destroying the trademark holder's protections. As true of any property rights, it really is a sort of "use it or lose it" situation. Copyright protections are a little stronger than trademark protections, but the idea is the same: enforce it or risk losing it.

Also, when you allow fan fiction, you run the risk of the writers of said fan fiction suing you for copyright infringement.

Say you know OSC has a new book coming out (let's call it Shadows in Flight, shall we?) and it links the end of the Shadow series with the end of the Speaker series. Now say that you just can't wait, so you write your own novel that does just that. Then OSC's book comes out and, hey, he's got stuff in there like Bean being an ancestor of Novinha, his kids creating the descoladores, or any number of theories we've been coming up with for years. But you wrote that in your fan fiction before he ever started writing! So you sue him for infringing on your work, which was in itself an infringement. It's been known to happen.

The only way to protect yourself against that kind of litigation is to prohibit unauthorized derivative works. You also have to keep in mind the fact that he's optioned his rights to various works in various mediums out, already, which means he can't authorize your use in certain mediums.
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Re: Fan Fiction

Postby zeroguy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:34 am

I tried looking on ff.net for Enderverse fanfiction, and there wasnt much. And most of it is only 1 chapter. Does anyone here read/write ff? Or maybe know of some good place to find some enderverse ff?
There was another person that came around here looking for similar things; as I recall, they said there wasn't much (for reasons in this thread). Can't remember the username or the thread off the top of my head, maybe someone else remembers.
I think you will find that, in general, pwebbers are not proponents of fan fiction.
Hmm, I don't know if I'd characterize it quite that way (though that opinion is in the majority, no doubt). I don't read any (definitely wouldn't for EG-related stuff), but I'm really for it in general. I don't like OSC's stance on it, but he's certainly within his legal rights to do what he does, and I'm nowhere near adamant enough to try and change that.

Fortunately for FF writers, though, they are heavily favored these days as far as the actual practicality of enforcement goes.
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Postby Yebra » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:12 am

The only way to ensure your intellectual property rights are secure is to actively protect them. Think of certain trademarks that have overtaken the generic noun, e.g. xerox or kleenex. When this happens, courts can (and do) declare the trademarked term to be a generic word, destroying the trademark holder's protections. As true of any property rights, it really is a sort of "use it or lose it" situation. Copyright protections are a little stronger than trademark protections, but the idea is the same: enforce it or risk losing it.
You're the law guy and all so I defer to you here, but I was under the impression that copyright didn't work under quite the same 'use it or lose it' provision that trademarks did and it was very difficult to lose protection? What's the actual mechanism there in terms of failure to protect?

Also, does this mean there's a lucrative business in sitting in a basement, knocking off generic scripts and then suing when something vaguely similar appears on the scene? I wasn't using my soul for much so that sounds like a winner to me.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:02 am

It's definitely harder to lose copyright protections than trademark protections. However, the legal theory of laches is quite alive and well in copyright litigation. The theory goes that if you know someone is infringing on your rights and you do nothing to actively stop them, you're "sleeping" on your rights and lose the right to judgment against the infringing party, because the party has a harder time defending himself now than when the suit should have been filed. I've also seen a few lawyers argue acquiescence ("permission by owner's silence") for varied results.

That said, you don't lose your protection against other infringing parties, assuming you address the problem in a timely manner, but the doctrine applies to each party separately, so that while one may not affect the others, you can still lose your protections for all past infringements. There's also an issue of the running statute of limitations, when exactly it starts, when it's extended, and what you can recover if some acts are outside the statute and some are within. And now there's a strong push to further conform copyright with other property field, including the right to adverse possession and abandonment, which really would mean that if you're not out there protecting your rights, you lose them against everyone.

Of course, that doesn't even get into the issue of whether the Librarian of Congress can make appointments without being the head of a cabinet-level position, thereby possibly making his appointment of people in the Copyright Office unconstitutional. And given that except in the 7th Circuit, valid registrations are required just to get the court to hear the case, that issue could totally murk up copyright litigation for years to come. And while the Supreme Court will probably eventually settle the mess they made, what happens in the meantime is not going to be pretty.
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Postby wigginboy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:27 am

I am a die-hard Star Trek fan. I am not a Trekkie or Trekker or anything like that, but I grew up with the shows and movies and am quite a stickler for continuity within the universe. I won't get started with the new movie, not here anyway, but I will start on the plethora of fanfic I have found within this universe. It seems that the many Trek fans who have been creative enough to write fiction based on the Trek universe have decided to turn a blind eye to continuity. I understand using the universe as a starting ground for your own fiction, but at least have some respect for the original author. There is nothing wrong with getting up on your feet in the writing world, but if you are going to use someone else's idea, have the respect to keep their world intact while adding your own ideas.

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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:45 am

I take it you're not looking forward to reading the millionth Kirk/Spock slashfic?
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Postby Froth » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:14 pm

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Last edited by Froth on Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
*Insert hilariously accurate quote about the way the world works and a tad sexist about woman, that 99.9% of the forum wont laugh at, but Ill rofl for hours at*

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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:20 pm

How could a ff author sue an author? ff authors dont legally own their work, right?
Sure they do. You don't lose your own rights by infringing on another's.
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Postby Froth » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:14 pm

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Last edited by Froth on Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
*Insert hilariously accurate quote about the way the world works and a tad sexist about woman, that 99.9% of the forum wont laugh at, but Ill rofl for hours at*

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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:00 pm

Marion Zimmer Bradley comes to mind. She actively endorsed and published anthologies of fanfiction within her created worlds until one fanfiction author caused enough legal trouble with her novel coming out (he insisted she stole his story) that the novel was never actually published. And Ms. Bradley isn't alone, which is why a common piece of advise attorneys give authors is to not read the fan fiction about their works. Of course, that certainly doesn't mean the potential for litigation will disappear; it will simply serve as support for the author's defense if ever faced with the litigation.

And I'm not entirely sure why it doesn't "make sense." If I decide to write poetry or short fiction about Harry Potter, or Ender's Game, or whathaveyou, my work is still legally protected (though I face liability for my infringement and my work will be enjoined from publication). Even if the characters/world aren't my own, the author can't take and use my work without permission any more than I could steal their's. Two wrongs certainly don't make a right. Stripping infringing parties of their own protections makes about as much sense in the field of property law as okaying a would-be victim of a mugging to steal everything the mugger owns.
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