Is Ender the only Wiggin capable of destroying the Buggers?

Discuss all things pertaining to the EnderVerse milieu.
gioia003
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:50 am

Is Ender the only Wiggin capable of destroying the Buggers?

Postby gioia003 » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:05 am

After I finished Ender’s Game, the first questions that popped in my head were, how would Peter or Valentine handle the situations that Ender encountered? Now I do believe that Ender has his brother’s killer instinct of survival and his sister’s ability to be compassionate and understanding towards other people. This makes him the best tool for the I.F. to use to destroy the Buggers but I still think that Peter and Valentine could have reached that level as well.

Look what they were able to do on the nets. Kids who weren’t even teenagers using philosophers like Locke and Demosthenes to question how the world was and how it should be. They had a following and people were willing to follow whatever they said. This shows their ability to control situations, like Ender did in Battle school and the simulators, to get what they wanted. And in the end, they did get what they wanted. Peter becomes Hegemon on earth and Valentine could have very well stayed on Earth and deploy her own agenda but chooses to live in peace with Ender.

The Wiggins are a special family. It child had their own strengths and weaknesses but I really do believe that in the end, all three of them could have saved the world.

User avatar
locke
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 3046
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:07 pm
Contact:

Postby locke » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:43 pm

Valentine would have immediately seen what took Ender a while to see, where the queen was in the seemingly random pattern of bugger ship movements in Mazer's demonstration. But Val would have never acted on that knowledge, even in a game. Peter would have never been able to see where the queen was though he would have been more than capable of pulling the trigger on the world. Neither probably would have seen the solution through to the planet to blow it up. and Ender never saw that as a solution to win anyway. It was an end game to break the rules and demonstrate his unfitness for command. He meant to be court martialed or equivalent by taking out the planet in the 'simulation'.

and as for peter and val, it's not about manipulating people so much as it about the relationship between commander and his officers. Peter could only ever lead in the military by fear and dominance, at least unless he forcibly learned behaviors contrary to his instincts. Val would be so concerned for the safety of her troops that she would never put them in a situation involving risk and thus drastically reduce the capacity and morale of her troops (think the airmen in the beginning of Twelve O Clock High who have been coddled by a superior officer who can't bear to see any of them die). Ender is much more in the Eisenhower mode of leader. He's compassionate enough to win the devoted love of his men and officers but hard enough to send them to their deaths if that what it takes.

OSC's original premise for using a child was that no adult would be capable of throwing away the immense millions of human lives necessary to lose to wage the third war. But a child could take those risks and hopefully make intuitive leaps beyond the wisdom of adults. this is much clearer in the short story than it is in the novel.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

christine
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:23 pm

Postby christine » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:06 pm

I agree with Locke.

OSC also uses a child as the commander because adults see something they immediately deem impossible and don't try. Children are more creative, try things that seem impossible until they figure it out (unless it really is impossible). I think the Giant's Drink game reflects this idea, beautifully. The adults watch Ender persistently continue the game while they wonder if he is suicidal. Eventually he beats the giant in a way none of the adults could have imagined. Ender defeats the buggers in the same manner as the giant. Instead of playing the game the giant offers or instead of fighting each individual ship, he attacks the giant himself and in turn attacks the Queen on her planet.

User avatar
locke
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 3046
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:07 pm
Contact:

Postby locke » Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:52 pm

:claps:

beautiful analysis Christine, I'd never thought of connecting the giants drink and the impossibility angle and the end battle before. Very Nice.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

Hot-Soup
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:27 pm
Location: On my throne

Postby Hot-Soup » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:41 pm

Locke and Christine are both pretty dead on.


In SotG Mazer tells Peter that he was good except that no one could come to love him as they loved Ender. Peter would of been a good commander serving UNDER someone like Ender, but Peter did not inspire others.

Valentines compassion I think could also be translated into an ability to read people (she says so herself in EG.) Ender truly was the best of both worlds.

Peter had the insight and the know how, Valentine had the understanding and the compassion.

User avatar
Jebus
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1300
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:53 pm
Title: Lord and Saviour
First Joined: 07 Nov 2001

Postby Jebus » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:23 pm

I have been wondering, would Ender have been able to defeat the buggers, had he known the game was real? It's always repeated that Ender was the perfect middle-ground between Valentine's caringness and likeability, and Peter's ruthlessness. But how ruthless is Ender really? We know that when he is threatened, he will stop at nothing to defeat his enemy quickly and cleanly, but would he have taken it for granted that the buggers were a threat? After the destruction we find out that the buggers had had no further intention of attacking humans, but at the time th evil nature of the destructive mindless aliens was pretty much unquestioned by most people.

So would Ender have destroyed the bugger's home planet anyway, even knowing it was real, or would the Valentine part him have taken over and stopped him from destroying a species whose intentions he did not know.

User avatar
locke
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 3046
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:07 pm
Contact:

Postby locke » Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:06 pm

iirc, in Ender in Exile he says that yes he would have done it if he'd known it was real.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

User avatar
neo-dragon
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2516
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:26 pm
Title: Huey Revolutionary
Location: Canada

Postby neo-dragon » Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:50 pm

I'm pretty sure he also says so in SftD and/or the other subsequent books. It's part of the reason why he feels so guilty. He can't just say, "I thought I was playing a game, so it wasn't my fault," because he knows that he would have done it even if he had known the truth.
"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'

ellis
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:48 pm

Postby ellis » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:25 am

So this is going back to what was said asked earlier about the other Wiggins being able to do what Ender did. Personally, I think that Val and Peter are the two extremes and Ender is the balance between them. Val and Peter, though both highly intelligent, had completely different personalities. They had such different personalities that they needed each other in order to create the characters on the net. By the end of the book, there may have been a possibility that they could have done what Ender did, as Peter and Val had both rubbed off on each other. However, in the limited amount of time that there was before the bugger war, they would not have matured in time.

Ender_in_Iowa
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:38 pm

Postby Ender_in_Iowa » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:47 pm

I'm pretty sure he also says so in SftD and/or the other subsequent books. It's part of the reason why he feels so guilty. He can't just say, "I thought I was playing a game, so it wasn't my fault," because he knows that he would have done it even if he had known the truth.
I agree with neo-dragon here.

Christine had a good explanation also. However I don't think that Ender could have defeated the buggers if he had known the reality of the situation. The way I see it, his war was with the teachers, more directly with Mazor and the game itself. Much like performing the victory ritual in the battleroom before the match was over, digging out the giants eye, or destroying the planet and both forces with the MDD. Ender disregards any rules set before him and finds an alternate end to the situation, victory is just a fortunate side effect.

Would he have done it knowing it was real, yes, which as already been pointed out.

Could he have done it. IMO, no.

ottox135
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:40 pm

Postby ottox135 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:01 pm

Many of you have brought up great points about the other Wiggins. I think it is important to think that the Wiggins were all amazing characters. Peter is ruthless and would have been able to defeat the buggers just as Ender did. Valentine however I don't think would have been able to, though intelligent she has more the politician and compassionate side of her. Had Ender known at the time what he was actually doing at the time, even though he admits later that he could have, I don't know if would have been able to. Though I feel Peter still could. He didn't need to be personable and inspire loyalty like Ender did in order to win. One of the other posters mentioned that Valentine might be too hesitant to use her troops and i agree completely. Any other thoughts?

User avatar
^Peter
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:06 am
Location: CA

Postby ^Peter » Fri May 01, 2009 8:38 am

Many of you have brought up great points about the other Wiggins. I think it is important to think that the Wiggins were all amazing characters. Peter is ruthless and would have been able to defeat the buggers just as Ender did. Valentine however I don't think would have been able to, though intelligent she has more the politician and compassionate side of her. Had Ender known at the time what he was actually doing at the time, even though he admits later that he could have, I don't know if would have been able to. Though I feel Peter still could. He didn't need to be personable and inspire loyalty like Ender did in order to win. One of the other posters mentioned that Valentine might be too hesitant to use her troops and i agree completely. Any other thoughts?
The one thing you forget though, is that Peter wasn't a natural born leader. People just didn't cling to Peter as they did to Ender. Unfortunately Peter had to hide and manipulate, which is pretty indecent. Because of this, Peter wouldn't have had the back-up he needed like Ender had his Jeesh.

TerresaWiggin
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:26 am
Location: diagonally parked in a parallel universe

Re: Is Ender the only Wiggin capable of destroying the Bugge

Postby TerresaWiggin » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:32 pm

Here is my analysis on how any of the other Wiggin children would have faired.

Val: Capable of the strategy needed to defeat the buggers and the compassion to understand them as well as able to gain the loyalty of her squadron leaders, however, when it came to the final battle, Val would not have been able to destroy the hive queens planet. She would not be willing to win at all costs.

Peter: Also a strong strategist and he would be strong enough and willing to destroy the hive queens planet in the final battle. The problem with Peter is he could not have won the complete trust of his squadron leaders the way Ender did. They wouldn't as Bean said, "Follow him into space without a suit." The reason that Ender won the final battle was that he knew where to put his squadron leaders, in which situations they would be victorious. They trusted Ender entirely in a way that I don't think they could ever have trusted Peter. Later in the Shadow series it is shown that while people would support Peter's cause, they were never fully loyal to Peter. They merely wanted the world peacefully united and believed Peter was the best person to do it.

In conclusion, the traits that make Ender an excellent commander, the loyalty of his soldiers, his excellent strategy, his compassion, and his ability to win at all costs are somewhat but not fully present in his siblings. However I don't think anyone can argue that the Wiggins had an extraordinary crop of children and they all left a strong mark on the world.
"when a school counselor called her in to tell her that the school administration was growing concerned about the fact that Petra seemed to be associating with the antisocial element in the school, she knew that she was truly at home in Maralik."

EAGLE
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:41 pm
Location: Sac Town
Contact:

Re:

Postby EAGLE » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:57 pm

I have been wondering, would Ender have been able to defeat the buggers, had he known the game was real? It's always repeated that Ender was the perfect middle-ground between Valentine's caringness and likeability, and Peter's ruthlessness. But how ruthless is Ender really? We know that when he is threatened, he will stop at nothing to defeat his enemy quickly and cleanly, but would he have taken it for granted that the buggers were a threat? After the destruction we find out that the buggers had had no further intention of attacking humans, but at the time th evil nature of the destructive mindless aliens was pretty much unquestioned by most people.

So would Ender have destroyed the bugger's home planet anyway, even knowing it was real, or would the Valentine part him have taken over and stopped him from destroying a species whose intentions he did not know.
I think his over all decision would have been the same but going about it would have been different. Realism and actuality are two very different things, and humans (Ender included) act differently depending on the stakes. A modern example is playing poker online. I've played poker stars before the real money ban here in the us and the freerolls (play money) games people would take stupid and crazy risk because it has no real value. Humans flying and fighting the ships have value. Every soldier can win a war if used right.

Those same risk taking freeroller's on poker stars, play in a real money game and ever chip has a value, has a potential to be the "winning chip" so they play tight or smart with less risk. Same goes for people, mind you Ender thinks on a different level than the average man but his thoughts still understand that principle.
iirc, in Ender in Exile he says that yes he would have done it if he'd known it was real.
I disagree on the concept of: our past defines us as who we are. Now I acutally have yet to read this one (was concentrating on the shadow series and jobless sucks!! :roll: ) but if any time has pasted after knowing the game, the simulations were real then that very same knowledge of what was real changes Ender's view of everything.

Take Ender right before the final battle or hell before Mazer's simulation started and convince Ender that it was real...ultimately we agree I think, he would still have done it; but would he still become Speaker for the Dead, would his Exile still be needed? The fact that while in Exile he says he would still do it; is only because he experienced the simulation and learned, grew from it.

Shorten point I guess is past knowledge is Ender's nurturer over nature.
:thumbs:
Pweb member since 2002

"Remember kids...A smart man knows when...to run like a little bi**h"
-Desert Punk

dk55717
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:57 am

Re: Is Ender the only Wiggin capable of destroying the Bugge

Postby dk55717 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:04 am

I am fairly sure that Peter was both smart enough and inclined towards violence enough that he would have defeated the buggers in the same way as Ender once presented with the situation. I do not however believe Peter would have made it through battle school or become a commander with the speed that Ender did and thus would not have been the one who ended up fighting the buggers. I also think Peter would have ignored bean and never noticed his potential, this could have lead to his downfall and inability to defeat the buggers. I am unsure if Val could have defeated them but I lean towards no but i am at least solidly sure Peter could not have defeated them.
Image -Image -Image Image - Image


Return to “EnderVerse Novels and Stories”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests