Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

[Jayelle]

It has been a week since the initial question was asked, and nothing.

It's been less than a day! I didn't have time to respond last night and I am usually busy during the day.

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:59 pm--

So, you wild and crazy kids, how about that site addition? It's all I want for Christmas, since I've had my two front teeth for quite a while.

Whoops. My bad. I guess I didn't see that initial question.

[Wind Swept]

Have we come to any conclusions as to what we want this 'site addition' to be?

[Luet]

I have plenty of time but I have absolutely no tech knowledge. But I'm willing to do whatever needs to be done that is within my power.

[VelvetElvis]

I have a moderate amount of time and am a good researcher.

[Noodle]

Have we come to any conclusions as to what we want this 'site addition' to be?

The way I remember it, there was quite a lot of discussion about what technology we want (or rather DON'T want (wiki, blog, etc.)) and no real discussion about the content. This seems backwards to me.

As far as I'm concerned, the next step is to figure out exactly what we want the site to become. Then and only then will we be able to make an informed decision about the methodology with which we achieve that goal.

Here are some possible things we can add to the site: (these are just here to spur discussion and we can take all of them, or none of them)

News Section This would most likely be the homepage, and would feature something akin to the old PWeb homepage. dated articles that cover any news. This news could be restricted to strictly EG related things (movies, new books, mentions in the news, etc.) or it could cover OSC's whole catalog (he releases a new book, etc). It should also cover any PWeb related news (Forum Upgrades, Mod Elections, that sort of thing). It might be possible, through add-ons to the forum software, that we can have each new post on the front page create a thread in the corresponding forum for comments.

Encyclopedia This would be a copy of the original PWeb encyclopedia.

Timelines These were a big part of the site, and were mentioned by OSC himself in at least one book. Probably should have them back online.

The AuthorThe old site had discussions about the screenplay and differences with the novel (all mostly outdated by now I assume), information about OSC himself, and his other works, a place to submit pictures of fans meeting OSC, Links to interviews with OSC.

Fan WorksIt also had a place to submit fan works. Links, Art, Music, and Text.

Is there anything else we should add? Should we take out anything above? Thoughts?

[VelvetElvis]

I think we should have both links related EG/ES news and other OSC works, but in different sections. Like on the top half of the page EG/ES news and on the second half list the news for other OSC works.

[Wind Swept]

Timelines These were a big part of the site, and were mentioned by OSC himself in at least one book. Probably should have them back online.

My new friend d3.js and I would like to play Timeline data...

[zeroguy]

Do we have the old content?

Yes. (Or, at least some of it / most of it, if I understand correctly)

Is help needed?

So, aside from content organization (that Noodle has provided at least one way for), I think one thing that we're going to need without question is a site design. Or... do we have one already? Or do we want to use the old site design?

If not, we need someone to make one. That sounds like one way to help. Other than that, helping achieve consensus is one way to help out a lot, which I think just comes down to saying whether or not you agree with something someone has proposed in the thread. For example, the post Noodle just made.

[Luet]

I think Noodle's proposal sounds great.

[starlooker]

Likewise. Sounds good to me.

[Syphon the Sun]

Wil did a lot of work on site design last year. I assume he's still cool with us using it?

[LilBee91]

I like Noodle's organization. With Helen's idea for different news feeds/categories.

It might also be nice to have section with brief info about all the Enderverse books and such. Then from there we could link to the timelines and maybe the encyclopedia. Is the encyclopedia we have just Enderverse, or does it have other OSC stuff too?

I'm fine with the old site design, but it might look a little ghetto compared to our super shiny new forum. I don't remember what Wil's site design looked like, but I'm sure it's pretty too. Wait--was that one with the world and fancy darkness and stars and such?

[Syphon the Sun]

http://nothing.canbreakit.com/durp1000.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nothing.canbreakit.com/durp10001.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nothing.canbreakit.com/durp10002.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nothing.canbreakit.com/durp8.6.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nothing.canbreakit.com/durp7_straight_books.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nothing.canbreakit.com/durp10.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ETA: I'm sure there are other designs he did, but those are the ones I found quickly in the other forum section.

[Wind Swept]

I think we should have both links related EG/ES news and other OSC works, but in different sections. Like on the top half of the page EG/ES news and on the second half list the news for other OSC works.

I don't think we need different sections. Different categories that can be sorted out and viewed as such, sure, but we don't have enough news to warrant two separate areas.

Also, who's going to update content? This is usually where such plans fall apart...

[Dr. Mobius]

It might be possible, through add-ons to the forum software, that we can have each new post on the front page create a thread in the corresponding forum for comments.

This mod looks like it should provide that functionality.

[Luet]

Also, who's going to update content? This is usually where such plans fall apart...

I'd be happy to volunteer to do whatever needs to be done on a daily basis to search for news stories or whatever. If someone wants to tell me how they find all these great articles on movie news that aren't posted on hatrack and stuff. Do you just search for OSC's name? Anyway, I could do a search daily and then poke a specified tech to ask them to post any story that I find. Unless posting a story is wicked easy, in which case I could do it myself.

[Wind Swept]

Posting a story will be "wicked easy." However, I'd hope we'd do more than just post links. At the very least, offer some commentary on the links. Otherwise, visitors might as well just use Google.

[Luet]

Ah, yes, writing. That thing that I hate. Well, I can do the part that I offered, the grunt work, if someone who likes writing about stuff would like to comment on said stories.

[Gravity Defier]

Thanks a lot, guys. Thanks a damn lot. Apparently Caspian and Josh were right to tell me everything I did wasn't enough or even noticeable. To everyone, save Syphon apparently.

Thanks for letting Noodle waltz in, when he wasn't even around, and claim we didn't address content when we took care of that along with the design aspect. Thanks to the rest of you for thinking his outline, which is a near perfect mirror of the one Wil and I put together on those designs (only, we didn't think the timeline deserved its own header), was this gift.

No, no. Nevermind anything we did, that we endlessly asked for input on in this exact thread.

Seriously, thank you. You've just proven exactly what my ideas and I are worth to you all.

Someone, anyone, please feel free to take over the remaining Spotlights; I won't be around.

[Luet]

I don't even know what to say other than I'm sorry. I don't think anyone meant to minimize your efforts or hurt your feelings, although obviously that was the result.

This thread is 15 pages long and started almost a year ago. A lot has happened in that time and I, for one, have a terrible memory. I don't remember who said what and when. I honestly did not mean to slight anyone's efforts but I totally understand how it could feel that way.

Of course it doesn't make sense to repeat the work that was already done (thanks, Syphon for finding Wil's work on the site design). I guess that's why someone needs to be in charge of this whole thing. Preferable someone with knowledge of site design and the time and desire to put into it. That way they can look back through this thread and see what has already been done.

I don't know what the answer is but I'm really sorry that feelings got hurt here. I think people were just trying to get ideas out there without realizing that efforts were being duplicated.

[LilBee91]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cause any offense. I definitely had a brain fart regarding Wil's designs and needed a refresher on things.

Once I saw them again, I rembered how great they were and was going to suggest a vote on our favorite Wil web designs, since they're awfully pretty. Plus I really like the categories on them. Now I'd wish I'd done it last night instead of today.

Also, we need to have that quote database in the books section. Or the rotating quote thing. Whatever people prefer.

[Jayelle]

Just because things didn't happen on your timeline doesn't mean all the efforts that have been put in don't mean anything. Wil's site design can and likely will be used. The discussion died out a year ago, mostly because we didn't have the access that we do now, but it's being revived and these changes can actually be made now if we can skip all the damn drama and actually just DO IT.

It seemed to me like Noodle was RECAPPING what has happened so far for those who haven't had the time/energy to read 15 pages. A few people said it sounded good, then Syphon posted the stuff Wil made.
I'd really like Wil to get in here and say whether he wants to help or not, because if he doesn't, then all the approval means nothing, we're going to have to start from scratch.

Alea, it's your prerogative if you want to leave pweb in a huff or take a break or whatever, but if you want to help or have your ideas used, you could stop getting your back up about what happened in the past, realize that no one here is out to get you and talk about what needs to be done in the here and now. I'm sick and tired of being emotionally blackmailed. Either you want to help or you don't.

[Gravity Defier]

Alea, it's your prerogative if you want to leave pweb in a huff

Yes, I choose this. f*** you.

[starlooker]

So. I just got confirmation that my spotlight interview that was scheduled for tomorrow is officially off.

Anyone want to volunteer to take it over?

Also, I really hope this does not kill what I saw as really, really good forward momentum and lots of enthusiasm over what we can now do with a site addition.

[Taalcon]

Jumping in in the middle, and not knowing all you have access to, my recommendation would be to install a CMS/Blog Service like WordPress. Everything you've expressed you want done can be relatively easily performed, and fully customized and skinned according to your desire. Wordpress would allow easy content updates by anyone authorized to do so, and easily add separate searchable pages. Many hosting companies (like GoDaddy) also have Wiki engine services able to be automatically installed for no additional charge.

Just some thoughts, which probably already duplicate much of what has been discussed in one place or another. When we started PWEB, Blogs weren't really a big thing, and we had to manually HTML code each edit and change. Ami had eventually hand-coded an update module for front-page material, which was awesome for its day, and our purposes. But now there's free blog software that is simple, and incredibly powerful and customizable.

[Noodle]

OK, here are my thoughts on this. I could respond over in the other thread started by Alea, but this seems to be the appropriate place since I'm going to be explaining the thought process for my post above.

I went back, when I first came back in August, and read through this entire thread. I haven't gone back and read it since then. My memory isn't what it used to be, and it's very possible, likely even that I miss remembered important things that happened in the thread. I'm sorry, it wasn't intentional.

That said, one of the biggest impressions I got from that read through (and it was confirmed by a quick read through of the first page of the thread) that the process was going backwards. My impression was that there was a lot of discussion about if we should have a CMS, which CMS to use, should we have a wiki, and other things that were putting the cart before the horse. It's very probable that there was more discussion about the content, but I don't remember that featuring nearly as prominently as the technical aspects.

Like I said before, to me, that's backwards. It's akin to deciding between a pickup truck, a semi truck, or a freight train before figuring out what kind of cargo you're carrying. We should figure out if we're moving a few pieces of furniture, or if we're moving a whole furniture store. At that point we can pick the vehicle we're using to accomplish our goals.

Strictly speaking, I'm not even talking about a design. I'm saying "If we're going to have a front page, what information are we going to have on the front page?" In my opinion, everything else is secondary. If I was here back when this thread started, I would have brought this up at that time.

I didn't intend for my post above to sound like it was stealing anyone's thunder, or stealing their ideas. I simply pulled up Archive.org and looked at what was on the site in 2003. I copied it here with a commentary about what it was, and my thoughts about if we should have it or not. It was meant to spur conversation. I wasn't claiming these were original ideas, or intending everyone to just simply agree with me.

[zeroguy]

My impression was that there was a lot of discussion about if we should have a CMS, which CMS to use, should we have a wiki, and other things that were putting the cart before the horse. It's very probable that there was more discussion about the content, but I don't remember that featuring nearly as prominently as the technical aspects.

I cannot really see how that matters, honestly. We want people to be able to update some content; it's just some text and pictures and stuff (whether it be about "what happened in chapter X" or "what OSC ate for breakfast today"). While there may be some new shiny interactive gizmos and such (interactive timelines sounds useful), we're not trying to revolutionize content distribution or be the next canv.as or something.

Unless that's not what someone wants, of course. But the only discussion I've seen about this was more about content organization than the actual type of data that's going to be there...

I dunno, it just seems like even a really basic CMS or something would suit us, and I can't imagine what we'd want to do where that wouldn't be enough. So, if someone gets a skin/theme/whatever working with some cms that looks like Wil's site design, or some other design that we agree enough on, that sounds like progress to me. (All CMSen I've ever used strike me as terrible, but if it came to me I was probably going to look at a thing called modx...)

[Noodle]

well, I guess my thinking goes along the lines of: what content do we want to have? how do we want to present that content?

I mean, I think we're all agreed that we would like to see a news section. The news section should have categories, so one could go back and look at movie news, or book news, or site news in an easy way. It's clear that any blogging software can do exactly this, so that part isn't really a huge discussion.

But when it comes down to the encyclopedia, well, we could do a wiki, or we could do some other dynamically rendered pages, or we could do static pages, or we could... so, the question is what are we looking for in the encyclopedia section?

As for other sections, the same questions come up. If we're going to have a fan works section, do we want it to be user submitted fan works, or moderated submissions, or have an email for users to send their work to? or are we going to have a fan works section at all?

think about every part of the board that's important to you, and think about how you want it to work. Until we have answers for these questions, it's too early to say that this or that CMS is the right fit for us.

Two CMS examples that have been thrown out: Wordpress and Drupal. Both are really good pieces of software, but their intentions are WAY different. Wordpress is strictly a blogging software. It allows for secondary pages that are nearly static, but it's primary goal is to allow for easy posting of blogs/news items. Drupal does the blogging stuff, but it also has a more in depth secondary page structure.

Both CMSes can be used for our purposes, but until we know exactly what our purposes are, it doesn't make any sense to me to start talking about what software we're going to use.

Then again, I might be in the minority here. If so, don't let me stand in the way of progress.

[Taalcon]

My thoughts, as someone who recognizes his (legitimately earned) 'lesser status' in the current world of PWEB, based on my original thoughts and intentions for the site, updated for the Next Generation:

Don't duplicate content that can be found elsewhere. I guess I'm a little concerned about the concept of an Ender Encyclopedia, because one - highly based on the work that was done here before - has been published, and is available for purchase. In fact, the Encyclopedia, I view, as a key hallmark of Pweb's success. I believe the enthusaism for the material that Pweb gathered successfully led to such a book being produced - and check out how many of our Pwebbers not only had material printed in there, but also were thanked! I view that as a Pweb book!

There was a period of time when we were working on expanding the scope of the site to make a separate wing dedicated to the Alvin Maker material - it was going to be called taleswapper.net, which would do for Alvin Maker all stuff we did for Ender (timeline, encyclopedia, etc). We even had guys (and gals) from Hatrack volunteering to submit and fill that material. I had even submitted a graphic design for the site layout. It just...never materialized. We were trying to expand to cover all OSC fans, not just the Ender ones. Do you want to be an overarching OSC fictional-universes-resource?

Do you want pweb to remain exclusively Ender's Game fan themed ? If so, what is there new that can be offered to fans that can't be offered anywhere else? At one point, I was working on an EG-inspired webcomic called 'Launchies', which did not use any specific Ender characters or situations. If I remember correctly, we had gotten the concept approved by The Powers That Be. It was fully intended as a humerous take on the Battle School concept, and was definitely a comedy strip, not a dramatic work of Fan Fiction. Which, if I remember correctly, was a key reason it had gotten approved. That permission would be especially hard (probably impossible) now with Marvel having officially licenced comics.

But perhaps a webcomic about Ender's Game fans?

I do think a key strength of this site isn't any more as much that it is a fictional resource, but a fan resource. A place to express and live the fan experience. Or in other words, the lives of those who have been effected in some important way by EG. Almost a support group, if you will. I'd say that would be something great to embrace.

Sure, keep up on book and movie news. Actively seek scoops (Back in the day, OSC allowed us to officially announce some material before it was officially announced anywhere else) and interviews. Who has the gumption to try and go and request and do podcast interviews with Ender Cover Artists, or Marvel Comics script writers, or some other high profile individual that has expressed the effect Ender has had on their lives? The Spotlight Podcast series is fantastic. I think something like that could be reworked, and perhaps even expanded. The PWEB Ansible, or something, where the Spotlight was a feature of that magazine-like Podcast. That's a fantastic idea. Maybe a semi-regular special edition v-cast through YouTube?

I know I'm just an old fart granddaddy around here. But I know that the First Gen Pweb had big dreams, and they were fulfilled. We got OSC involved. We got scoops out. We hosted several aspects of EnderCon, made the first official EG wearable merchandise. We made a dent and difference in the Ender fan community. Most importantly, a community was built.

You guys have the best advertising ever - you're listed in the actual Ender books! People for years will see it, and hunt down the site to see if it still exists.

I think this is a powerful time to turn inwards, look at who you are as a community, and decide the best way to express that in additional content that will resonate with others, in a way that cannot be found anywhere else, that you with your particular passions, skills, and gifts can accomplish.

Everything that's been done recently has been amazing. I'm excited about Pweb for the first time in years.

There's lots of growing pains going on. Don't let them destroy you. Harness them. Use them. Speak to and for those who need to hear your voice.

You have a powerful vehicle here. I'm excited to see what you do with it.

[Wind Swept]

That... Sounds like a lot of work.

[Taalcon]

Delegate, delegate, delegate

There are so many wonderful talented people here who could pool their resources, even to a small degree, be assigned one set of distinct responsibilities, and thus get something running.

If all the work is on the back of two or three people, I agree - nothing will ever get done in any way that will satisfy anyone. It will remain a pipe dream. It needs to be a community effort.

You need to first establish THE VISION/ THE GOAL, agree on it as a community of individuals committed to participating in making it happen, and then discuss practically what that means, readjust expectations, and dish out responsibility in order to fulfill the united VISION of the community.

Again, just my $0.02.

[LilBee91]

Good ideas Taal. But work. =]

This makes me want to think of Pweb as some type of AA. "Hi I'm Shannon and I'm an Ender fan. It's been three months since my last re-read."

[zeroguy]

it's too early to say that this or that CMS is the right fit for us.

Well, I think any normal CMS should be able to handle (most of) that; they tend to be (intended to be) very flexible. I don't really consider Wordpress a CMS, though; it's blog software. phpBB has some sort of CMS module, too, but I wouldn't want to use it; phpBB is forum software.

Your examples I don't disagree with, though. I was just assuming something like the old pweb frontpage (so, everything gets posted or at least goes through a small set of people); that's what I meant by discussing the "type of data" vs just the organization. On that, I don't have an opinion. :)

This is where I'd normally say that someone just needs to take an idea and run with it, and not wait to try to achieve consensus with everyone. But with recent events....

[LilBee91]

Maybe someone can take the idea and run with it if the state very clearly it's just playing. I for one don't speak enough tech-ese to follow what y'all are discussing half the time. But if I see it in action I can tell you right away what I don't like.

[Gravity Defier]

Oh God. Oh God. I'm not allowed in here, so I'm just going to drop this for whoever and run screaming from the thread.

Hi Alea,

Thanks to write and for your interview offer. I would love to do it, except that I think it would be a little dificult for me if it´s a spoken conversation podcast, I´m not that confident with my English. What I can do is offer you if interested, a written interview. It´ll be my pleasure to do it.

Let me know if it works for you.

Thanks and good luck with the website!

That is from Sebastian Fiumara. He works on the comics.

http://sebafiumara.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

*runs screaming from the room*