Illegal Immigration: Perpetual Chaos

[Sparrowhawk]

I know that what's going to be the big thing this week is the Virginia Tech travesty, but I have a topic of discussion to distract from that disaster with another tragedy and injustice in Virginia.

In case you hadn't heard the story (I don't recall it getting much media play), 22-year-old Alfredo Ramos, an illegal alien from Mexico, struck and killed Allison Kunhardt, 17, and Tessa Tranchant, 16, in Virginia while driving drunk.

Alfredo Ramos had three previous alcohol-related convictions and an identity theft case as well. Regardless, federal authorities were unaware he was even in the country - because Virginia Beach is a "Sanctuary City" and its police chief, Alfred Jacocks, had ordered his officers not to ask about immigration status when dealing with most criminals.

In fact, our four most populous cities - New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and Houston - all have "Sanctuary" policies in place, as do scores of other places. In addition, previous to the fatal accident that killed the 2 teenage girls, Judge Colon Whitehurst released Ramos with only a $250 fine after Ramos pleaded guilty to a DUI, his fourth conviction - of course, all while he was living in the country illegally in the first place and getting nabbed by police for drunk-driving four times. To his credit, Judge Whitehurst did suspend Ramos' license - of course, he never actually had one in the first place, but hey, who's keeping score, right?

You might remember this incident being the spark for the O'Reilly vs Geraldo fiasco, or if you haven't seen/heard of it, check out YouTube or just Google it. Basically, Bill O'Reilly and Geraldo Rivera get into quite the shouting match over the Ramos' case. This is one of the reasons I watch O'Reilly, really - he'll go out of his way to highlight incidents that aren't getting much attention and bring them to light. As you may know, I actually quite like him and his program books, even with the opinion differences we have. In this instance, he was quite right - Geraldo and those downplaying the incident seem to believe that the issue here is drunk driving, and not illegal immigration. In fact, the issue is about both of them - this guy Ramos got away with 4 drunk driving convictions and he never even had a license in the first place; and in all of his police interactions, no one thought it might be a good idea to let someone know that this guy was not only illegally in the country, but committing further crimes while here! And where did it lead us, this "sanctuary"? Two dead girls. Yet we can't seem to get outraged about it; I don't know if it's because we honestly don't care about illegal immigration, or we're all just afraid of being branded racists because we want someone to actually do something about it. I don't know about you, but I doubt I'd get much "sanctuary" if I illegally immigrated to, say, any other country in the world, let alone did so and then drove around drunk all the time.

[Jebus]

I still see this as a drunk driving issue, not an illegal alien one. What would have been different about this case if he had been in the country legally?

[Sparrowhawk]

Yes, it would (see: should) have been different.

As it stands, Mr. Ramos managed to get into the country and reside here in violation of the law. This is beyond the scope of local law enfocement's power and the victim's volition. Mr. Ramos also frequently drove around drunk, also his own act and beyond anyone else's power. However, due to this action he was detained on multiple occasions by law enforcement and the state, who each failed on multiple fronts: to either deport this illegal alien who by his very location was violating the law or to indict him with charges adequate to his multiple offenses against said law. As an illegal alien (see: criminal) Mr. Ramos not only should not have been driving (as he had no license), should not have been driving around drunk (a crime regardless of license and citizenship) but should not have been residing in the country in the first place. At any point in his several interactions with police and judges, any of them could have prevented this tragedy by shipping his ass back where it came from. You asked me what would have been different if he had been in the country legally, and the answer is this: the difference is that in that instance, no one could have prevented the death's but Mr. Ramos himself, by choosing not to drive drunk. As it is, there are quite a few people who could have prevented him, most notably Judge Whitehurst and local law enforcement.

[Jebus]

While deporting him may have stopped this incident from happening, it's still ultimately only treating the symptoms and not the cause, and at the end of the day, in order to prevent these accidents; the focus shouldn't be on sendin' them mexicans home, but rather appropriate punishment for anyone who drives drunk.

[hive_king]

I know its not directly relavent to the case, but I think the laws should be changed so that the second time you're caught drunk driving within a few years, especially if your liscense is suspended, your car should be impounded. I've seen way too many people who get their liscense suspended and still drive drunk. We need stricter laws on that.

[Rei]

In BC I think you can lose your license altogether for doing that. I'm not certain about your car being impounded, but you couldn't be caught doing anything on the road without getting into huge trouble.

[jotabe]

What i would really support is that, the second time you are caught driving drunk, you should be deported.

Neverminding where you were born, or what nationality your passport says you are.

[Sparrowhawk]

but rather appropriate punishment for anyone who drives drunk.

I won't argue with that. However, we're talking about situations where people don't have a license to drive in the first place, let alone 4 drunk driving incidents. I'm not sure why this guy, an illegal alien and multiple offender, wasn't already in a jail (in Mexico or the States). Most of the people I know who've been convicted multiple times of driving under the influence spent at least some time in jail, usually because the fines were too much to pay. Obviously this guy wouldn't have been able to pay them either, which begs the question of how the hell after the third time, when they knew full well he was in the country illegally, driving around without a license, and driving around drunk, that he wasn't incarcerated in some manner.

[Dr. Mobius]

In BC I think you can lose your license altogether for doing that.

I think Nick nullified your argument before you even posted it. A license isn't a requirement to drive. Not unless they start putting card readers in cars and make you swipe your license or the car won't start or something, which I'm sure would give you-know-who something else to bitch about.

As it currently stands, any idiot with a key can get in a car long enough to kill somebody, preferably themselves, regardless of whether or not they have a special card in their wallet that gives them permission to use the thing.

[Rei]

Yes, but the only way to definitely prevent idiots with car keys is to ban cars altogether. And while that would certainly be functional in certain areas (such as much of the area where I currently live), it doesn't work everywhere.

[Noodle]

This issue is clearly about drunk driving enforcement and the fact that the driver was an illegal alien is nothing more than an interesting bit of trivia.

Clearly a multiple offender, with no license should have gotten something more than a fine. Since the judges involved didn't know that he was an illegal alien, he wasn't given special treatment. If he was a legal resident, he would have had the same fines, and been released. The accident would have happened and the girls would still be dead.

The guy had Four DUI offenses and got nothing more than a slap on the wrist. That is outrageous regardless of how he got into the country.

[Sparrowhawk]

I think you're assuming too much. To presume that the judge could somehow have been oblivious to the man's status as an illegal alien is ludicrous; despite the "don't ask, don't tell" policy of police in certain areas, it isn't reasonable to assume that the judge and prosecution handling his previous driving cases would have been blissfully unaware that he was, in fact, a criminal alien.

[Noodle]

Let's get our facts straight:

22-year-old Alfredo Ramos was convicted in February on DUI charges from November 13, 2006....

He was given a 90 day suspended sentence, fined $250, had his drivers' license suspended, and he ordered to participate in ASAP, an alcohol awareness program.

This is more than just a $250 fine and an alcohol awareness program. Still too lax if you ask me, but I just want to set the record straight. His license was revoked, and was given a suspended sentence.

Law-enforcement officials in Chesapeake never informed Immigration and Customs Enforcement about Ramos' residence status in the U.S. This contrasts with Virginia Beach, whose authorities notified ICE immediately after Ramos was arrested.

(From http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=6307948)

That seems to contradict your assertion that the judge knew his immigration status. Not to mention that I hardly think that someone's residency comes into play in traffic court.

It is important to recognize that the Code of Virginia, under Section 19.2-81.6, only gives local and state police the authority to charge someone as an illegal alien after they have been:

- Previously convicted of a felony and

- Previously deported or left the United States after such conviction and

- Have reentered the United States and

- Have been arrested again.

- Even under those circumstances, we're only authorized to hold them for 72 hours.

(from http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.c ... ran=202742)

According to court records, Alfredo has a criminal history, all misdemeanors. In October 2006, Ramos was charged with drunk in public. In November 2007, he was charged with driving without a license, identity theft, no seat belt, and no insurance. In January 2007, he was charged with pubic swearing and intoxication.

(From http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6307530)

He had previous convictions, but ALL of them were for misdemeanors. Together with the law quoted above, this means that according to Virginia law, the police department couldn't have done any more.

Again, it's very unfortunate that these girls are dead. It's also unfortunate that it could have been prevented, but the fact that this man was in the country illegally has NO bearing on the facts. Had he been born in Virginia, the girls would still be dead. The only difference is nut-jobs like Bill O'Reilly would have had to find another scapegoat.

[Sparrowhawk]

Let's get our facts straight:

22-year-old Alfredo Ramos was convicted in February on DUI charges from November 13, 2006....

He was given a 90 day suspended sentence, fined $250, had his drivers' license suspended, and he ordered to participate in ASAP, an alcohol awareness program.

This is more than just a $250 fine and an alcohol awareness program. Still too lax if you ask me, but I just want to set the record straight. His license was revoked, and was given a suspended sentence.

Law-enforcement officials in Chesapeake never informed Immigration and Customs Enforcement about Ramos' residence status in the U.S. This contrasts with Virginia Beach, whose authorities notified ICE immediately after Ramos was arrested.

(From http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=6307948)

That seems to contradict your assertion that the judge knew his immigration status. Not to mention that I hardly think that someone's residency comes into play in traffic court.

It is important to recognize that the Code of Virginia, under Section 19.2-81.6, only gives local and state police the authority to charge someone as an illegal alien after they have been:

- Previously convicted of a felony and

- Previously deported or left the United States after such conviction and

- Have reentered the United States and

- Have been arrested again.

- Even under those circumstances, we're only authorized to hold them for 72 hours.

(from http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.c ... ran=202742)

According to court records, Alfredo has a criminal history, all misdemeanors. In October 2006, Ramos was charged with drunk in public. In November 2007, he was charged with driving without a license, identity theft, no seat belt, and no insurance. In January 2007, he was charged with pubic swearing and intoxication.

(From http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6307530)

He had previous convictions, but ALL of them were for misdemeanors. Together with the law quoted above, this means that according to Virginia law, the police department couldn't have done any more.

Again, it's very unfortunate that these girls are dead. It's also unfortunate that it could have been prevented, but the fact that this man was in the country illegally has NO bearing on the facts. Had he been born in Virginia, the girls would still be dead. The only difference is nut-jobs like Bill O'Reilly would have had to find another scapegoat.

Oooh, his non-existant license was revoked. Big whoop. I don't know how a judge could suspend someone's license without finding out if dude had a f****** license in the first place. But oh well; I guess judicial incompetency doesn't have any bearing in this topic. Regardless, the fact that the man was in the country illegally DOES still have relevance; had he been born in VA, the girls would still be dead, yes - but had VA had illegal immigration laws that actually enforced the law - (or for that matter, drunk driving laws that actually enforced the law) - they might still be alive. So it IS an issue of illegal immigration (despite that it's ALSO an issue of drunk driving) - both legislative topics need serious reform, in both VA and the rest of the country.

[Rei]

While technically that is true -- if he had not been allowed into the country this never would have happened -- you would have to demonstrate a trend of illegal immigrants causing such accidents and being general menaces to the public resulting in deaths or injuries, etc. before you can say that his being an illegal immigrant is relevant. Furthermore, this trend would have to be higher than what we see in native citizens and legal immigrants in order to blame it on his being an illegal immigrant that this happened. As it stands, we know that drunken driving causes accidents an leads to deaths and injuries very frequently, so we can safely say that THAT is the predominant fault of this fellow, not his being an illegal immigrant. As said earlier, being an illegal immigrant is nought more than trivia.

[Dr. Mobius]

Yes, but the only way to definitely prevent idiots with car keys is to ban cars altogether. And while that would certainly be functional in certain areas (such as much of the area where I currently live), it doesn't work everywhere.

Or we could ban idiots altogether. Clean up the gene pool a bit. Maybe that Hitler guy had the right idea, he just targeted the wrong population group.

[Sparrowhawk]

Yes, but the only way to definitely prevent idiots with car keys is to ban cars altogether. And while that would certainly be functional in certain areas (such as much of the area where I currently live), it doesn't work everywhere.

Or we could ban idiots altogether. Clean up the gene pool a bit. Maybe that Hitler guy had the right idea, he just targeted the wrong population group.

Oh, Hitler had the right idea - he was just an underachiever (to paraphrase the venerable Bill Hicks.)

[Eaquae Legit]

Good ol' eugenics.

Faugh.

[Sparrowhawk]

Hitler had the right idea, he was just an underachiever! Kill 'em all, Adolf, all of 'em! Jew, Mexican, American, white, kill 'em all! Start over, the experiment didn't work! [despairingly] Rain forty days, please f****** rain to wash these turds off my f****** life! Wash these human wastes of flesh and bone off this planet! I pray to you, God, to kill these f****** people!

[jotabe]

Yeah, as i always say: the best solution for all of mankind's problems is the extermination of all humans.
Or, as my father says: The dog died, the rabbies is over.

[Sparrowhawk]

Bender: I came here with a simple dream... To destroy all humans.

[jotabe]

Not as if an AI species, culturally inheritor of ourselves, would be any better... (Matrix, i'm looking at you).