Philotic Web

luminousnerd, if I'm of the opinion that you're always wrong, and opinions can't be disproved (according to you), does that mean it's true?

No, because it's not an opinon that can't be disproved. I can disprove it right now by saying: The sky appears blue.

Sorry, Lumi, but I am speaking from personal experience, for several years, long before you were born, and on which the statute of limitations has long run out. I don't have a problem with not believing you. I quit when I got pregnant, which is how I know that it's not addictive, because while I quit marijuana easily, I was only able to cut way down on tobacco, and didn't try on caffeine, because I didn't realize that caffeine was a Bad Thing for pregnancy. I stayed quit when the baby was born, because I didn't want to be nonfunctional with a helpless person in the house whose life depended on my functionality (designated driver). (And if you think anyone really _likes_ changing any particular diaper, you are wrong! Smile ) The baby is 32 years old now, and I never got around to going back to it, for many reasons depending on the year. I believe that it should be legal for recreational as well as medicinal purposes, but that people should use good sense when using it.

I'm confused here, I thought you were saying it did not have medicinal purposes? I agree with what you've said here.

You should read more carefully. It's good for many things, including quelling the nausea from cancer chemotherapy, relieving the pressure of glaucoma, and as an antidepressant, giving people a relief from the Black Fog and a reminder of what it is to feel happy. And it's a great painkiller, too. However, the things that people use the aspirin and acetominophen, etc, painkillers for, that is, to keep functioning while having one's pain relieved, it is not good for. If you're at home in the evening, not doing anything risky or painstaking, that's great. But it would never hurt the sales of the minor painkillers, which was the post I was taking exception to.

There's a very instructive record, called "A Child's Garden of Grass: a Pre-legalization Comedy". To the best of my knowledge, as I've never heard the CD, it contains the same material I once knew well on vinyl,
http://www.amazon.com/Childs-Garden-Gra ... B0001MMGM2
One comedy skit on it gives the music people _think_ they're making when high, then the version that straight people hear of the same music at the same time. It's funny, because it's so terribly true! ;^)

You should read more carefully. It's good for many things, including quelling the nausea from cancer chemotherapy, relieving the pressure of glaucoma, and as an antidepressant, giving people a relief from the Black Fog and a reminder of what it is to feel happy. And it's a great painkiller, too. However, the things that people use the aspirin and acetominophen, etc, painkillers for, that is, to keep functioning while having one's pain relieved, it is not good for. If you're at home in the evening, not doing anything risky or painstaking, that's great. But it would never hurt the sales of the minor painkillers, which was the post I was taking exception to.

Oh, that is what I thought you were saying. But I got confused when you then said it was great for medicinal purposes. Whatever, never mind, my bad.

I disagree, massively. That's the main reason it's illegal. It could kill pain killers. It's quite possible that if they sent a certain message in the media, it wouldn't kill them because people wouldn't believe weed works better than Aspirin. Even so, I think the main reason drug companies are all for keeping it illegal is that they fear it would kill their profits.

It is a drug that works, while Tylonol and others like that have terrible side-effects and rarely work (at least for me, but I haven't had any in several years since I found a better product). And I disagree with the claim that it makes you nonfunctional, it mainly affects the way you experience things, not the way you do things. Although I can't say this is true for everyone out there who does it, it is true for me.

There's a very instructive record, called "A Child's Garden of Grass: a Pre-legalization Comedy". To the best of my knowledge, as I've never heard the CD, it contains the same material I once knew well on vinyl,
http://www.amazon.com/Childs-Garden-Gra ... B0001MMGM2
One comedy skit on it gives the music people _think_ they're making when high, then the version that straight people hear of the same music at the same time. It's funny, because it's so terribly true! ;^)

I don't understand this bit.

There's a very instructive record, called "A Child's Garden of Grass: a Pre-legalization Comedy". To the best of my knowledge, as I've never heard the CD, it contains the same material I once knew well on vinyl,
http://www.amazon.com/Childs-Garden-Gra ... B0001MMGM2
One comedy skit on it gives the music people _think_ they're making when high, then the version that straight people hear of the same music at the same time. It's funny, because it's so terribly true! ;^)

I don't understand this bit.

I guess you have to hear the record. It's very funny, but also makes a lot of serious points. Since it's out on CD, maybe one of your friends has it.

I guess you have to hear the record. It's very funny, but also makes a lot of serious points. Since it's out on CD, maybe one of your friends has it.

Not likely. I hang out with my own kind: nerds. They aren't into CDs. And I'm the only one who advocates weed

I don't really understand what you're saying it is about though. I'll look into it.

That's the main reason it's illegal. It could kill pain killers. It's quite possible that if they sent a certain message in the media, it wouldn't kill them because people wouldn't believe weed works better than Aspirin. Even so, I think the main reason drug companies are all for keeping it illegal is that they fear it would kill their profits.

Did you read the article? The actual history doesn't back you up.

That's the main reason it's illegal. It could kill pain killers. It's quite possible that if they sent a certain message in the media, it wouldn't kill them because people wouldn't believe weed works better than Aspirin. Even so, I think the main reason drug companies are all for keeping it illegal is that they fear it would kill their profits.

Did you read the article? The actual history doesn't back you up.

I didn't read it recently, like I said I read it a long time ago. I should re-read it.

But still, the history certainly doesn't contradict what I said. I'm not talking about history at all. I'm talking about now. The origin of the criminalization of weed was for other reasons. This is one of the huge reasons they KEEP it illegal.

Fair enough. You still could have made that more clear though.

Even so, I think the main reason drug companies are all for keeping it illegal is that they fear it would kill their profits.

Seems pretty clear to me.

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/national ... t=national

This seems to match the serious tone.

It could kill pain killers. It's quite possible that if they sent a certain message in the media, it wouldn't kill them because people wouldn't believe weed works better than Aspirin. Even so, I think the main reason drug companies are all for keeping it illegal is that they fear it would kill their profits.

It is a drug that works, while Tylonol and others like that have terrible side-effects and rarely work (at least for me, but I haven't had any in several years since I found a better product). And I disagree with the claim that it makes you nonfunctional, it mainly affects the way you experience things, not the way you do things. Although I can't say this is true for everyone out there who does it, it is true for me.

I think that it should be legalized, but legalized in the same way that alcohol is, with controls, and probably prescriptions for kids under at least twenty-one. Your attitudes are a prime reason _why_ I think that.

There exist pain-killers (analgesics) much stronger than Tylenol, Aspirin, and Ibuprofen. They're prescription-only, usually because they _do_ have side-effects, one of those major side-effects being the same one that tetrahydrocannabinol has: distortion of perception, which is the same thing as "the way you do things". Even some OTC cold medications have warnings on the label about driving or operating heavy machinery, but they should also have warnings about things like measuring precise dosages of whatever a baby is supposed to have in its formula, anything else that's critical to life. You can't do any operation safely without having an accurate perception or experience of what it is that you're doing. I really hope that you don't drive while under the influence. I have done that, and it terrified me so that I swore off driving with it long before I quit entirely. And I can't even count the number of drunks who say and believe that that doesn't affect the way they drive: their _perception_ of the way they drive is what's affected! And sooner or later they kill somebody, since they don't realize that they're driving badly.

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/national ... t=national

This seems to match the serious tone.

"Soft Hemp" was grown around Lawrence, Kansas during WWII, when German attacks on shipping was cutting off US supplies of hemp, then a major industrial necessity. The variety that grew well in North American climates was far from ideal for the uses for which it was needed, and it was abandoned when trade got back to normal after the war. But the "feral" descendents of the plant continued in the creek and river bottoms and waste place around Lawrence until the sixties, when Beat and Hippie college students discovered them to be ideal for their purposes....

And somehow, this dark conspiracy of evil pharmaceutical companies has got, not only the USA govt. to tag along, but also most governments of the developed world.
Certainly, the power of said companies is to be feared... i am trembling right now, while writing this lines.

Seriously guys: LOLconspiracy

You mean, developed countries like the Netherlands?

I think that it should be legalized, but legalized in the same way that alcohol is, with controls, and probably prescriptions for kids under at least twenty-one. Your attitudes are a prime reason _why_ I think that.

There exist pain-killers (analgesics) much stronger than Tylenol, Aspirin, and Ibuprofen. They're prescription-only, usually because they _do_ have side-effects, one of those major side-effects being the same one that tetrahydrocannabinol has: distortion of perception, which is the same thing as "the way you do things". Even some OTC cold medications have warnings on the label about driving or operating heavy machinery, but they should also have warnings about things like measuring precise dosages of whatever a baby is supposed to have in its formula, anything else that's critical to life. You can't do any operation safely without having an accurate perception or experience of what it is that you're doing. I really hope that you don't drive while under the influence. I have done that, and it terrified me so that I swore off driving with it long before I quit entirely. And I can't even count the number of drunks who say and believe that that doesn't affect the way they drive: their _perception_ of the way they drive is what's affected! And sooner or later they kill somebody, since they don't realize that they're driving badly.

No no, you entirely misunderstood me. I think it's a terrible idea to toke and drive.

And I think it should be illegal for young people as well. It affects the growth while they are still in those stages. Ideally I would say the age should be 16, but I understand the public will have a hard enough time accepting it at all, so 28 or even 21 is fine too. But I think it definitely needs to be legal.

I find people who just shrug off "conspiracy theories" to be rather silly and illogical. I think the government has made it clear time and time again that their primary goal isn't honesty.

You don't need to buy the conspiracy theories to know that what's happening is wrong. The government doesn't need a conspiracy to indefinitely shelve marijuana - just the ridiculous sensibilities of Americans and their incredible ability to collectively ignore things.

I agree that US banning the use of public funding for cannabinnoids research is stupid. But i don't think that they should be readily available: no drug (medicine) is.
They have toxic effects, just like any drug (medicine). I don't know, i just see that is natural that their use is strictly regulated, as with any potentially hazardous substance (just as alcohol and tobacco are, too).

About the Netherlands... Cannabis is not legal there. It's technically illegal, from what i know. But personal consumption, while being illegal, is not prosecuted. It's a law that, by law, is not enforced... ironic, i know.

Actually, the substance is non-toxic.

And, you don't think alcohol and tobacco are readily available? Because, seriously, they are. Anyone I know here, no matter what age, could get their hands on it in less than an hour. And immediately, so long as they were of age. And those are substances which ARE toxic - i.e., they can kill by themselves.

Actually, i meant to say that alcohol and tobacco were toxic, too, not that they weren't readily available.

I can tolerate and even sympatize with people that want liberalization of drugs. But i fail to understand people who want to criminalize the consumption of drugs, and not the consumption of alcohol and tobacco.
I wouldn't criminalize them myself. I would criminalize selling/distributing them as consumption products (In Spain, tobacco is nowadays sold with big stickers that say that tobacco is gravely damaging for health, that is to say that isn't apt for human consumption; that would be how alcohol should be distributed, too).

I agree that US banning the use of public funding for cannabinnoids research is stupid. But i don't think that they should be readily available: no drug (medicine) is.
They have toxic effects, just like any drug (medicine). I don't know, i just see that is natural that their use is strictly regulated, as with any potentially hazardous substance (just as alcohol and tobacco are, too).

About the Netherlands... Cannabis is not legal there. It's technically illegal, from what i know. But personal consumption, while being illegal, is not prosecuted. It's a law that, by law, is not enforced... ironic, i know.

1. Some very harmful drugs are readily available at any one of the thousands of 7-Elevens.

2. Marijuana is NOT toxic, has NO toxic effects, and can NOT be overdosed on.

3. There are loose laws, but the effect is the same. Coffee shops sell weed and make a public show of it and never ever get in trouble.

And we've got that surgeon general's warning, but it's real small.

1.- Never heard of 7-Eleven thingies
2.- Evan water can kill you by overdose! Cannabis has effects on brain chemistry so it can change your behaviour... that doesn't sound like toxic to you?
3.- But you cannot import or export drugs from the country


Smoking kills.

Toxic

2. acting as or having the effect of a poison; poisonous: a toxic drug.

Poison

1. a substance with an inherent property that tends to destroy life or impair health.

Marijuana use has been scientifically linked to linked to things such as memory loss and poor motor skills, thus it impairs health, and has the properties or effect of a poison. This is totally ignoring the negative effects on your lungs from smoking the stuff (though I am well aware there are more ways of getting 'high', just nobody does it as regularely) By definition, this makes it toxic. However, having the effect of changing your behaviour would not actually make a substance toxic. In order to be considered toxic, based on the above definitions, it would have to have some permanent health reducing effects.

jotabe: You show me one documented case of somebody dieing from an overdose of marijuana. Show me that and you can use that argument. The fact of the matter is that nobody has died from an overdose of marijuana. Ironically enough, nobody has ever died from an overdose of shrooms either, they just die from being so f****** on shrooms they think poisonous mushrooms are a good idea so they die from those. Yes, you can die from an overdose of water, and from many other things. From every bit of evidence I have ever seen nobody has ever once died from marijuana use.

Oh, and a 7-11 is a convenience store. A smoke shop. Where cigarettes, energy drinks, and other similarily health reducing products are sold.

Ok, points taken, and i receed.
But i still consider (against the strict dictionary definition, maybe) that having your perception of reality impaired is toxic... unless you are in an intimate, safe environment, it's a pretty dangerous circumstance. And well, it is not good to let your brain getting used to that.

1.- Never heard of 7-Eleven thingies
2.- Evan water can kill you by overdose! Cannabis has effects on brain chemistry so it can change your behaviour... that doesn't sound like toxic to you?
3.- But you cannot import or export drugs from the country


Smoking kills.

1. It's a convenience store. They're everywhere. They sell legal drugs.

2. No...toxic is POISON. To steal your example, even water can seriously affect your brain. A good amount of it makes you think better. Too much of it causes pain...etc...water is not toxic. As for overdose, you could overdose on water, but you could never overdose on weed. It's physically impossible to consume enough...there IS a level at which it would happen, but it's not possible to get there. You'd sooner die of not being able to breathe from all the smoke.

Jotabe, I am curious, if you are willing to share, whether you've ever used marijuana? It really doesn't affect you the way all of the media makes it out to be. It's quite hard to describe, and they want to make it sound bad. But unless you are driving or some such thing, you are fine. For most people, that is most of the day.

Your perception of reality is not impaired. You still perceive. It's just different. You tend to do things you enjoy well, and things you hate poorly.

And I am totally against people who smoke a lot every day, by the way. At that point it's dominating you, and that's not a good use for it. It shouldn't overwhelm your life, it should accent it.

I like how you totally ignored my entire post which explained exactly how marijuana is a poison so you could insist that it wasn't.

it's not dominating you if you're one of the people who smoke a lot every day; you're running away from something. Like me, running away from the depression of a failed relationship. I'm high right now, and will be tomorrow at this time, and every day for...a while...

It has nothing to do with domination, it has everything to do with me lacking proper coping skills and using alternate influences to assist me with coping.

it's not dominating you if you're one of the people who smoke a lot every day; you're running away from something. Like me, running away from the depression of a failed relationship. I'm high right now, and will be tomorrow at this time, and every day for...a while...

Better to use grass for your emotional analgesic than alcohol or suicide, which are the things that a lot of people looking for that use. As long as you take the care not to get caught, or get into a potentially deadly situation, and quit when it's "time" to get back to normal.

1. It's a convenience store. They're everywhere. They sell legal drugs.

2. No...toxic is POISON. To steal your example, even water can seriously affect your brain. A good amount of it makes you think better. Too much of it causes pain...etc...water is not toxic. As for overdose, you could overdose on water, but you could never overdose on weed. It's physically impossible to consume enough...there IS a level at which it would happen, but it's not possible to get there. You'd sooner die of not being able to breathe from all the smoke.

Convenience stores: to be more precise, they are seldom pharmacies, and don't sell legal _prescription_ drugs. What they're supposed to sell is things like Aspirin, Tylenol, Over-The-Counter cold medicine (along with their real, basic trade in food, magazines, gasoline, basic automotive supples.) Anything illegal would be a private enterprise of someone who worked there, and "under the counter"

Not everyone who uses marijuana smokes it. Back in the day, we used to be big on Alice B Toklas brownies, on which you _can_ overdose very, very easily, though I never knew anyone who died of it. Smoking has the built-in regulator of instant action, and small dose with each inhalation, so that before you cumulatively overdosed you'd be asleep.

This is the kind of mindset that is so alien to me... using "emotional analgesic" (the words Sybil used describe perfectly what Dapyrox was saying). I just don't get it.
We all get hurt... and certain things hurt a lot, they really do. But we have to go through them... opting out is... i don't know, it really seems wrong to me. We don't learn to control our emotions that way. We take the easy way out, so the next time something like that happens to us, it will hurt again as much, and we will need to opt out again.

Physical pain is different, you gain nothing from it. But emotional pain... when you get through it, you grow as a person. You are stronger, more cautious, and wiser.
But even physical pain, for combat sports pros, is something they have to learn to endure. And life, for the rest of people, is like a continuous emotional combat.

And this is also the path for the emotional dependence on the drug. It might not create a physiological dependence, but if the effects are as you describe, it will certainly create, eventually, a psichological addiction.

Convenience stores: to be more precise, they are seldom pharmacies, and don't sell legal _prescription_ drugs. What they're supposed to sell is things like Aspirin, Tylenol, Over-The-Counter cold medicine (along with their real, basic trade in food, magazines, gasoline, basic automotive supples.) Anything illegal would be a private enterprise of someone who worked there, and "under the counter"

I know...my point is they sell drugs that are more harmful than weed. I didn't say they sold illegal drugs or prescription drugs.

Not everyone who uses marijuana smokes it. Back in the day, we used to be big on Alice B Toklas brownies, on which you _can_ overdose very, very easily, though I never knew anyone who died of it. Smoking has the built-in regulator of instant action, and small dose with each inhalation, so that before you cumulatively overdosed you'd be asleep.

If it's as easy as you make it sound why haven't you seen it? But no, I'm afraid you're wrong, I'm going to trust a long-standing Wikipedia article before you. Sorry.

I like how you totally ignored my entire post which explained exactly how marijuana is a poison so you could insist that it wasn't.

it's not dominating you if you're one of the people who smoke a lot every day; you're running away from something. Like me, running away from the depression of a failed relationship. I'm high right now, and will be tomorrow at this time, and every day for...a while...

It has nothing to do with domination, it has everything to do with me lacking proper coping skills and using alternate influences to assist me with coping.

That doesn't change the fact that it is currently dominating your life.

And sorry I ignored your post. I didn't notice it. But you're wrong, weed is non-toxic. It does NOT tend to destroy life or impair health. I think that's the essence of this debate.

Also, poison implies a chemical cause, not a misuse cause. Marijuana in and of itself does absolutely nothing to your health. The only way it could harm you is if you do something stupid while on the drug, and the only way that could happen is if you are stupid to begin with.

Jotabe, well a psychological addition isn't at all a bad thing anyway. I'm psychologically addicted to chocolate, and for that matter, air. I just can't get enough of either

Convenience stores: to be more precise, they are seldom pharmacies, and don't sell legal _prescription_ drugs. What they're supposed to sell is things like Aspirin, Tylenol, Over-The-Counter cold medicine (along with their real, basic trade in food, magazines, gasoline, basic automotive supples.) Anything illegal would be a private enterprise of someone who worked there, and "under the counter"

I know...my point is they sell drugs that are more harmful than weed. I didn't say they sold illegal drugs or prescription drugs.

Not everyone who uses marijuana smokes it. Back in the day, we used to be big on Alice B Toklas brownies, on which you _can_ overdose very, very easily, though I never knew anyone who died of it. Smoking has the built-in regulator of instant action, and small dose with each inhalation, so that before you cumulatively overdosed you'd be asleep.

If it's as easy as you make it sound why haven't you seen it? But no, I'm afraid you're wrong, I'm going to trust a long-standing Wikipedia article before you. Sorry.

On the first part, I wasn't arguing with you, just filling in detail for someone unfamiliar with American convenience stores.

On the second part, there's a difference between overdosing (that is, suddenly being _much_ more stoned than you want to be), and _dying_ of overdose! I've _been_ much more stoned than I wanted to be for much longer than I wanted to be, without being in danger of death, and brownies were the culprit, even though we thought we were being careful. I think you and I were using two different meanings of the word "overdose".

toxic is POISON.

Just to be pedantic (because if Cicero can be, so can I), toxic =/= poison. Poisonous things are toxic, yes, but so are other things. Like venomous things.

That doesn't change the fact that it is currently dominating your life.

And sorry I ignored your post. I didn't notice it. But you're wrong, weed is non-toxic. It does NOT tend to destroy life or impair health. I think that's the essence of this debate.

Dominating infers that it has some control, when it doesn't. I can easily switch to another vice that alters my mindset such that I find life actually bearable.

Also, poison implies a chemical cause, not a misuse cause. Marijuana in and of itself does absolutely nothing to your health. The only way it could harm you is if you do something stupid while on the drug, and the only way that could happen is if you are stupid to begin with.

Jotabe, well a psychological addition isn't at all a bad thing anyway. I'm psychologically addicted to chocolate, and for that matter, air. I just can't get enough of either

Not true. link specifically references a study wherein it was shown that heavy marijuana users had less brain function than those who did not use marijuana. Thus it impairs or damages your health, as brain function is a part of your health. Thus, it is by definition a poison, and by definition toxic to you. It has nothing to do with other things that were done while intoxicated, it is based totally on the fact that they *were* high.

uh... when you are talking about brownies... you aren't talking about that kind of sweet biscuit, right?

Not true. link specifically references a study wherein it was shown that heavy marijuana users had less brain function than those who did not use marijuana. Thus it impairs or damages your health, as brain function is a part of your health. Thus, it is by definition a poison, and by definition toxic to you. It has nothing to do with other things that were done while intoxicated, it is based totally on the fact that they *were* high.

Like the lady that recently died from water-overdose, it is well-known that too much of just about anything can be dangerous for you. This is not to say or prove that these substances are necessarily toxic - some things you can die from, you need a certain amount of - water, certain vitamins and minerals, certain nutrients, etc. But like any psychotropic substance, cannabis either inhibits certain brain receptors or stimulates them. Over time, this activity-or-lack-thereof can lead to receptor burn-out in the brain - this again does not prove a toxicity (as I understand it, there isn't even an LD known for marijuana), but rather, that abuse and excess of the substance can eventually lead to a dependent state so severe, the receptors in the brain cannot function properly with (and in some cases, even without) the subtance that caused the malfunction. This is no more dangerous than people who indulge in coffee - do you ever notice how some people just *can't* get going in the morning without that first cup of joe? It's the same dependence. Their receptors are so burned out by over-stimulation, that without a strong dose of the substance, they can't even feel it. I know what you're trying to say Dapyrox, but you're simply drawing your conclusion a little too far. Luminous was correct (even in his own way) by saying that cannabis in and of itself is not inherently dangerous - and you corroborated that fact by stating that "heavy marijuana users had less brain function than those who did not use marijuana." All that this proves is that heavy use of _____ (which can be replaced by just about anything) is worse than not using.

uh... when you are talking about brownies... you aren't talking about that kind of sweet biscuit, right?

You haven't had brownies??? You poor soul!

It's like a really rich chocolate cake, sometimes chewy, other times sort of crunchy, and it's very common to bake weed into the brownies (but they're good [and addictive] either way!). I guess you could say sweet biscuit, but it wouldn't be how I'd describe it

daPyr0x: I take your point, literally overdose does mean more than desired. But When referring to drugs I think the meaning usually means death or hospitalization.

Also, domination != addiction. But you are right, it does infer control. And control: 2. to hold in check; curb: to control a horse; to control one's emotions.

Isn't that exactly what you told me it was doing?

toxic is POISON.

Just to be pedantic (because if Cicero can be, so can I), toxic =/= poison. Poisonous things are toxic, yes, but so are other things. Like venomous things.

1. of, pertaining to, affected with, or caused by a toxin or poison: a toxic condition.