In the beginning, there was ...

[suminonA]

Jehovah's Witnesses hold that there may be life on other planets but it is not for sure. The Bible doesn't say and so and, while open for speculation, there is no other hard evidence. If we found out that there was life on other planets (Intelligent Life) it wouldn't shake our faith or really alter our beliefs in a big way.

Open question:

What if we encounter other intelligent life and they claim that there is no deity to have brought the life on Earth, and that they can prove it?

A.

[lyons24000]

How much do they know about earth?

Are they able to speak for their species as a whole?

Is their opinion on the belief in a deity a stance taken by all of them?

How hard is the evidence?

Too many things come into question and so I really don't think it would make the Jehovah's Witnesses (as a group) change their beliefs. Now individuals might take what they say and run with it but are we sure that the evidence wasn't fabricated in some way or was there any bias allowed to creep in?

The only person that I know of that scientifically proved there was no God was Homer Simpson!

[Rei]

Lyons is right that the Bible does not say anything of extra-terrestrials. From that I tend to assume that it really does not matter in the story of God's relationship with us and the story of salvation. So who knows, there could be life, and that life could claim that there is no God, but they'd need some pretty good evidence and I'm skeptical that such evidence can ever be found.

[suminonA]

I’ll give some possible answers; don’t expect me to have the proof, because we are on “what if” territory here

How much do they know about earth?

They know all about it, because we are one of their laboratory experiments that they have started some time ago. (They also provide the exact date.)

Are they able to speak for their species as a whole?

Yes, because in their advanced society, their individualism and nationalism was long before dismissed and replaced with the advantages of an open society that shares everything, including information.

Is their opinion on the belief in a deity a stance taken by all of them?

They know we are the product of their experiments so there are no deities involved (directly) in our “creation”. The fact that they themselves are the product of some “divine intervention” is not yet established, as there is not enough proof for/against it. For the moment they are waiting for the race that started them as an experiment.

How hard is the evidence?

Solid crystal proof. All the history of the Earth is recorded within a few crystal storage units and available for playback in full 3D, surround sound - holographic theaters for us to enjoy.

Too many things come into question and so I really don't think it would make the Jehovah's Witnesses (as a group) change their beliefs. Now individuals might take what they say and run with it but are we sure that the evidence wasn't fabricated in some way or was there any bias allowed to creep in?
[emphasis added]

Well, you should realize that I as a skeptic think that all the “proof” that you can find in the “holy texts” is fabricated and full of obvious bias.

The only person that I know of that scientifically proved there was no God was Homer Simpson!

In this case he is my personal hero!

---

From that I tend to assume that it really does not matter in the story of God's relationship with us and the story of salvation. So who knows, there could be life, and that life could claim that there is no God, but they'd need some pretty good evidence and I'm skeptical that such evidence can ever be found.

You see, I find it interesting that (theist) people find it easier to believe that there are extra-terrestrial out there than that our deities are nothing more than human invention.

I completely agree that “the story of salvation” is important, as the most effective way of spreading morality. Yet I strongly believe that it is more important to acknowledge the reasons behind it and apply that morality because it is for the Greater/General Good than to blindly go ahead with the story and making claims that openly contradict scientific knowledge, as a result of the “holier that you” mentality.

A.

[Rei]

The thing is, the presenece of an alien society which constructed the Earth themselves does not discount the existance of God. All it does is displace it one step higher to ask the question, "Who created the alien society?" And that will keep happening until either there's a time loop and the last society with any such ability as to go back in time creates a world and that world is the first world, thus causing a loop. Or there must be a master creator being to initiate this whole process. I tend to buy into the master creator being theory, whom we call God. The other option is to believe that this advanced society already exists somewhere or that it will exist someday, and that is at least as far-fetched as the idea of God and serves less purpose for my life and humanity. So if only because of the solid reason for living a moral life and the encouragement to do so (realise that this is not how my reasoning is based and this is simply for the sake of argument), I lean towards the idea of a God.

So I am not against scientific evidence of this being found/revealed/whatever. I just don't think that it really matters in the big scheme of things. Here's a question to you, though. What would you do if it turns out this alien race believes in a God as well?

[lyons24000]

With all of that information, SuminonA, I honestly must say that I don't know what I would do. But I can say that the world would fall into chaos because people would feel that no God=no rules.

CHAOS I TELL YOU, CHAOS!!!!!!

[Eaquae Legit]

Because, of course, all athiests are immoral.

[hive_king]

No God = No Rules? Please tell me you were joking.

[suminonA]

What would you do if it turns out this alien race believes in a God as well?

That’s a nice question. And the answer is straight forward: It all depends on the kind of “proof” they have to base their beliefs upon. I mean, if all they have is some ancient book “divinely inspired” and the common fear that this “God” is always watching but never revealing Himself, then this is the same invention that the humans had while not knowing their true origins.

You see, in my case scenario, the proofs brought by the aliens would force the theists ask themselves a simple question: If a God creating the Earth doesn’t exist, does all the moral value of its story go away automatically? Are we behaving morally just because we fear the punishment of a God?

I am sorry to say that I suspect many of the theists would break and fall apart, their “purpose” in the grand scheme of things would be greatly diminished, by their own standards. (see lyons24000’s sarcastic post). It is their choice, I decided long ago that the absence (or existence) of a God shouldn’t affect me much in my daily behavior.

So, to come back to your question, if the aliens do have solid proof of the existence of some God, I’d take it into consideration, by my own standards. I am so extraordinarily conceited that I’d like to know the purpose the said deity had/has for me, and to learn it unequivocally from the only source that matters: the deity itself.

Anyways, I’d be quite proud that using my limited intelligence I saw “through” the “original God story” that clouded Human Kind’s mind for so long.

Humans think they are humble while believing that an all powerful God played a moment’s attention to their creation and their development. One should look at the size of the known Universe and wonder how lucky we are that we came to be conscious individualities, and stop self-destructing our civilization because we want “power”. In the Big Picture we are so little that the word “humble existence” becomes an extreme understatement.

All we have is a puny planet that offers limited resources to an ever-increasing population. As long as some individuals consider themselves worthier that the others, all the problems of this world, as insignificant as they are at the scale of the Universe, affect only us.

Maybe I’m digressing so I should stop here.

A Marry Christmas (or Secular Holidays ) for everyone!

A.

[lyons24000]

Oh come on. You can't tell me that a bunch of people, upon learning there was no higher being to answer to, wouldn't become grossly immoral. Sure, I don't think everyone would become immoral but many people would. I know for a fact that it would.

One mistake I made in that sentence was not clarifying that what I said did not make application to all but to some. I will apologize for that but I will stand by what I said.

[Rei]

I think, lyons, you are making the mistake of thinking that everybody will believe it if ever some sort of proof comes.

And I agree with you, sunonimA, that how we live should not be based upon fear of punishment or hope of reward. Even for Christians, and I imagine for at least some if not all other theistic religions. That is why I try to point to a relationship between God and Man, because that is what is important in Christianity. Maybe God is a communal imaginary friend, but when you are shown that your imaginary friend isn't real, do you just abandom it? Even if fully convinced that God is not real, I think I would still play the game, at least for a while, and I would not give up that which I had learned about how to live and how to treat others, if only out of respect for the friend I once had.

[suminonA]

Oh come on. You can't tell me that a bunch of people, upon learning there was no higher being to answer to, wouldn't become grossly immoral. Sure, I don't think everyone would become immoral but many people would. I know for a fact that it would.

You see, this is where I “get scared” (and very sad) when talking to that “bunch of people”.
For one thing, they are inflexible. What they miss about this Universe is the possibility that they might be wrong in their beliefs, and the belief in the existence of their favourite deity doesn’t make an exception. That way they block from the start the opportunity of learning new worthwhile things. (Their loss)

And second, if they (ever) “discover” that their deity isn’t there for them, they abandon the best thing that deity brought with it, namely their moral values. (Everybody’s loss)

Not to mention that they aren’t bothered by their own hypocrisy when claiming that “atheists are inherently immoral”.

---

And I agree with you, sunonimA, that how we live should not be based upon fear of punishment or hope of reward. Even for Christians, and I imagine for at least some if not all other theistic religions. That is why I try to point to a relationship between God and Man, because that is what is important in Christianity. Maybe God is a communal imaginary friend, but when you are shown that your imaginary friend isn't real, do you just abandom it? Even if fully convinced that God is not real, I think I would still play the game, at least for a while, and I would not give up that which I had learned about how to live and how to treat others, if only out of respect for the friend I once had.

The question that springs to mind is: Why would somebody be moral out of respect for an (imaginary) friend, but not out of respect for the others (living human beings), or ultimately at least out of respect for oneself?
Ok, this is more of a rhetorical question, maybe I should take it back…

---

And to go on with the discussion, a few more questions: Is it Christian dogma that the tables with the Ten Commandments that Moses got on the mountain were handwritten by God Himself? If so, what kind of proof there is for such a claim? Isn't it easier to accept that those tables were carved by human hand (eventually Moses')?

A.

[jotabe]

Do other christian denominations (besides catholics and orthodox) stablish dogmas too?

[Sibyl]

Do other christian denominations (besides catholics and orthodox) stablish dogmas too?

Yup. And other non-Christian religions too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

Okay, it's wikipedia, but I just read through it, and whoever wrote and edited it didn't conflict with any of my knowledge, and said it better than I could, so I don't see any point in saying a lot of it here, and not as well.

This is a neat thread! I just got here in early December, and it must have been hiding so far down that I didn't see it, and just got bumped up. I'm starting to read it from the beginning, and hope to get all the way up to here before I say much of anything else, because you may have said what I'd say already, as I notice in some other threads (not that I agree with you on _everything!_ )

[John Locke]

Man created religion for morals and to understand God, Allah, Yahweh, Shiva, whatever you want to call him/her/it.