I believe it is the height naivety to believe that TB dont exist. Have we ever caught a bomber before his bomb went off? Have we ever caught wind of an attack before it happened? How could you say such situations dont exist?
I can say it hasn't happened until you show me it has.
I believe its the last resort part thats catching you right? That there are always unexplored options, that theres always another way to get info.
Correct.
In which case you do beleive in time bombs, just not that all resources could ever be exhausted.
Incorrect. It cannot happen. Again, if it is possible in the real world to have such a scenario, show me one.
Accomplice.
You are just piling more and more circumstances on top of this. So now, we have caught the kidnapper, but have no leads as to the kid's whereabouts whatsoever, and the kidnapper says the kid is in immediate, mortal danger, AND we believe him AND he has an accomplice? How do you know the guy is even the kidnapper? How do you know the "accomplice" isn't actually the kidnapper, and the guy you have doesn't know anything?
Im just lazy. However, how could you never heard any of this?
I didn't say I hadn't heard it. I said show me a reliable source. I've heard people say the earth is flat, it doesn't mean I believe it.
Do you really have so little faith in the Govt that you think that none of the agencies had a single clue that there was a coming attack of that magnitude?
On the contrary, do you have so little faith in the government that they knew what was coming and didn't prevent it?
Conspiracy BS. Get a domain, not some shady IP address.
And you know what adds to that normal intelligence gathering and detective work and makes the CIA's job easier? More info from the guy caught...
How do you find out if he's lying? Normal intelligence gathering and detective work.
You dont have too, but hes fairly well respected, and people listen to him. Not to mention his arguments are probably much better than mine.
I don't respect him, I don't know who he is. Columnist for the Washington Post does not make you an expert in politics, international affairs, human rights, or any other field relevant to this discussion. And if his arguments are better, use them yourself! If they are sound, I will listen.
Personally to me it seems like there are a lot more people who say it works than it doesnt.
Show me then, don't give me anecdotal evidence.
And you have yet to prove to me that there is a problem with it or to convince me that if someone was in danger, I wouldnt utilize every possible action to get the info I need. I would rather spend my life in jail for torturing a terrorist that had info than allowing people to die.
Well, it looks like you ignored that part of my earlier posts. I'll give it to you again. Here are (at least some of) the flaws in the "ticking time bomb" scenario:
How do you know the attack is going to happen?
How do you know time is short?
How do you know you have the right guy?
How do you know he is guilty?
How do you know he has information that you can use to stop the bomb?
How do you know even if you torture the information out of him, you can stop it in time?
How do you know he will not lie?
How do you know there is no other way to stop the bomb?
How do you know there is no other way to get the information?
Im not going to change your opinion, your too high in opinion of yourself and your morals to ever sink as low as I would to save lives. Im arguing for my own sake mostly. I like seeing the other sides views. So that when I know my opinion actually matters, I can be well informed of both views. And im also a very opened minded person, makes me a bit of a flip flopper. But im always willing to change sides if the other sides argument is better and makes more sense.
Here you have me wrong. I will change my opinion in a heartbeat if I find out I am wrong. I think I am right though, you just have to show me why my arguments are flawed, just as I am trying to show you how yours are.
I think this is what it boils down to:
Argument: Torture is only okay in a ticking time bomb scenario.
Rebuttal: Ticking time bomb scenarios cannot exist, therefore torture is never okay.
You have to show either a TTB really exists, or admit I am correct.