The Race Relations/Diversity/Equality Thread

[Janus%TheDoorman]

If it helps, Dr. Laura's ending her radio show.

If I remember the details of the caller's problems, which of course weren't reported in most of the articles on the issue, the caller's husband's friends would often tell racist jokes even in her presence and neither his friends nor her husband showed any concern for her feelings.

If you wanted to discuss the actual issue behind the call, the way I understand it, either:

A: He's a complete a****** and doesn't care about her feelings.

B: He's a coward who's afraid of losing friends or damaging his relationship with them if he speaks up. (I remember this one being my gut assessment when reading the article, don't remember if there were specific supporting details. If his "friends" are really more business associates, this seems most likely)

C: He's made the all too common assumption that marrying a black person gets you free reign to tell and let pass racist jokes, because he's "hip and post-racial" and she's the one that needs to get with the times. (Yes, I know this is a simplification of the argument I made, but assuming everyone, especially your wife, thinks like that is just stupid.)

If it's A or B, it's not really a race-relations issue. Her husband's got character flaws to work out. If it's C, well, she could probably fix it by speaking to him about it, but she likely hasn't done that because she's afraid he's got A or B's character flaws, and we're back to marital issues more than race relations. IIRC, this was the actual situation she was in, having not yet spoken to her husband about it, instead choosing to turn to an old white woman on talk radio.

The only situation I see this being of concern to the race-dialogue is if she's spoken to him about it, and he's countered with, probably not at length, but the argument I made earlier. Yes, countering with simply "You're hypersensitive about your race" is incredibly callous, which was essentially what Dr. Laura did. Best case scenario, she speaks to him about it, he realizes he'd been hurting her, gets his friends to knock it off, and they work through this and whatever other issues they had. Of course, the fact that she went to talk radio before her husband to discuss the issue makes me think the real problem there is in their communication, not a greater stigma still present in the racial issues of the world at large.

[locke]

And as I said, she oversimplifies it. I don't think that it's as straightforward as 'black guys say nigger so white people should be able to say it too'. While I agree with what you're saying in theory, Janus, I don't think that we're quite there yet. How long as it been since anyone in this part of the world considered lefties as evil? The word "nigger" was widely used to dehumanize black people as recently as a generation or two ago. It's stupid for a word to have as much negative power as it does but over time it won't. I think it's natural that the people who used the word to oppress are going to be the last ones to be able to use it freely. Even then, context will always matter.

I can attest from personal witness that it still dehumanizes, an incident that was black on black wasn't any less dehumanizing when it was wielded as a weapon.

there isn't an insult/phrase/word in our language that has a comparable effect on nonblacks, imo. Faggot might be one one-hundredth as shattering, and that's about the closest thing I can think of.

[neo-dragon]

I can attest from personal witness that it still dehumanizes, an incident that was black on black wasn't any less dehumanizing when it was wielded as a weapon.

You're right. I should have said it's been a generation or two since it's been widely seen as acceptable to use it in a dehumanizing way. It's not like it doesn't still happen.

And Janus, see, you're addressing the actual issue, which is what Dr. Laura got too carried away to remember to do. She's the one who was being oversensitive. Apparently she felt that her right to use the N-word was being threatened by some uppity negress. I think you probably nailed it with your three possible scenarios.

[starlooker]

If it helps, Dr. Laura's ending her radio show.

Oh, believe me, it helps. That is, it helps humanity at large. I despise that woman, have for YEARS.

I love how she's all high and mighty about wanting to be able to use her first ammendment rights without someone getting insulted, blah blah blah. Lady, the fact that you've been ON THE RADIO saying offensive and largely useless s*** for YEARS is a testament to the fact that your first ammendment rights are entirely intact. What pisses you off is that people who don't like what you have to say are using THEIR first ammendment rights to call you out on your bullshit.

The first ammendment gives you the right to say what you want. It doesn't mean that you're guaranteed people will continue to listen to you after you say it, or that people will want to be associated with you, or that people will continue to buy products from those who pay you to say inflammatory bullshit. Say what you have the courage to say, but don't pretend, Ms. Anti-Politically Correct, that you are guaranteed that people won't be offended and won't speak up about it. I mean, isn't that your point, that people don't have the right not to be offended? So don't be so "I'm a poor little victim fighting against the evil powers that would silence me."

Boo-hoo-hoo.

Put on your big girl panties and deal with it. You've spent years being self-righteous about people "playing the victim." Please. Don't embarrass yourself further.

In retrospect, perhaps this should be a "Dear You."

[jotabe]

Ms. Anti-Politically Correct

When someone address themselves as "politically incorrect", that's the politically correct term for offensive and rude.
Because they aren't about to be as rude about themselves as they are about the "enemy".

[Eaquae Legit]

Well this is just sick.

[Petrie]

Are you surprised? That is an honest question. Is there any part of you that is surprised by anything in that article?

The race and culture tension in this state, before 1070 put it in the national/global spotlight, has been relatively high and the only thing 1070 did to change that was to bring it to the attention of those who have not been or are not currently victims of said tension.

It's manifested itself, in most cases, in minor ways - bogus traffic stops, inappropriate comments, etc- but it is nothing new to us and so as these things continue to come out, it makes me angry that it happens at all and it makes me sad that it reinforces the belief that it's everyone in the state when really, it's a select handful of idiots, but it doesn't tend to surprise me and I forget that it maybe comes as a surprise to others.

[Eaquae Legit]

I've never heard of private prisons before. That just blows my mind.

[Rei]

Yeah... I'm amazed that such a thing as a private prison even exists, let alone what they seem to have done.

[neo-dragon]

I honestly don't know if I should be offended or amused by this.

[Eaquae Legit]

I honestly don't know if I should be offended or amused by this.

Wow. Just wow. I have no idea either.

[Rei]

It's kind of like a horrified amusement with an extra-heavy dash of horror...

[jotabe]

I honestly don't know if I should be offended or amused by this.

Well, Halloween costumes aren't supposed to depict monsters? I think they were right on the spot.

[neo-dragon]

And get this, the blackface guy is a former cop.

[Rei]

Former, eh?

[Janus%TheDoorman]

Can I just rewind a bit and ask why people aren't absolutely outraged over the prison connection in Arizona? I mean, literally, a private company bribed at least one elected official to put through legislation that turned Arizona into a police state overnight, and no one seems to mind. People flipped out about the legislation itself, but now that at least what I hope is the full scope of the horror that the perpetrated, and... nothing. It's not strictly illegal but it's so blatantly undemocratic, so blatantly inhuman, even, that I can't wrap my head around it.

[Eaquae Legit]

I can't wrap my head around it.

I think that's my problem, at least.

[Rei]

That's certainly my problem. That and in a country where such a thing as a private prison can even exist... well, all bets are off. I knew that things were more capitalist than I liked in the States, but that they could go so far as that absurd and I have no clue how to respond.

[neo-dragon]

Yeah, it actually sounds like the first step toward some kind of dystopian future where Mega Corporations own the government.

Really, how far is it from OCP in Robocop; a corporation running the police? I guess I can't really wrap my head around it either. All I can do is say to myself 'this sort of thing could never happen in Canada... right??'

[Petrie]

All I can do is say to myself 'this sort of thing could never happen in Canada... right??'

I think this is why more people aren't outraged; I think it's one of those things that people assume can't happen to them, that they're removed from in the way most people are removed from things you see on the news that are only supposed to happen to nameless people from far away. "That would never happen in my city/state/country..."

I could be wrong but I do think that's at least part of it. There's also most likely a sense of futility in being concerned with it. Truly, what can be done about that?

[Janus%TheDoorman]

It got mentioned on Bill Maher's show tonight, and even there it was sort of brushed over. He referred to them as the prison lobby, as if calling them a lobby makes them a legitimate organization. This country has a mindset where business interests are equated to individual citizen's interests, and so companies get the same political rights as people without any of the civil responsibilities.

The relationship between legislators and business interests is disgusting. We don't let prosecutors or judges oversee any case where they might have a personal stake in the outcome, so why do we let the actual lawmakers develop financial interests with the same companies? Be it campaign finance or the actual payoff in million-dollar a year "consulting" salaries after they leave office, any legislator that derives singular personal benefits from their time in office ought to be prosecuted. For f***'s sake, insider trading is somehow legal for our congress!

Where does it end?

EDIT:

There's also most likely a sense of futility in being concerned with it. Truly, what can be done about that?

That really is the heart of it. The Founders would say, well, if you hate the Congress, throw them out, and run yourself or find someone who will stand up for you. The problem is that when the country seems to be in crisis somehow or another all the time, a reform party can never find the chance to get together and fix the system. And it's only during times of crisis that the need for reform becomes terribly apparent.

To make lasting change, you'd need a constitutional amendment restricting Congress's ability to benefit from their own decisions, or else it would simply be repealed once the Reform party dissolved. So, unless we can get a truly massive, revolutionary groundswell of support for solutions to these issues, the machine will keep on going.

[neo-dragon]

Asian Invasion in Canadian universities

Of some 20 per cent of Toronto public high school students of east Asian background, fully 85 per cent of their parents say they expect their children to go to university, according to a 2008 TDSB survey, compared to 78 per cent of South Asian parents, 59 per cent of white parents and 49 per cent of black parents.

In contrast, east Asians have the lowest rate of attendance at community college — only 8 per cent, compared to 14 per cent for Canadian-born.

I find it fascinating how parents in certain cultures put such pressure on their children to enter high prestige careers, and other cultures... well... don't.

I see it every day. The school I teach at has a very large Indian population. It's not even funny how many of them MUST be doctors or at least pharmacists; including ones I've failed in chemistry.

[Rei]

That really brings up my issue with the general push for young people to go to university. I do think our society and economy could be benefited by treating trade schools less like the place for people who couldn't make it in university and more like a place for people who just plain do better at hands-on stuff or who prefer that kind of thinking and work.

[jotabe]

I do think our society and economy could be benefited by treating trade schools less like the place for people who couldn't make it in university and more like a place for people who just plain do better at hands-on stuff or who prefer that kind of thinking and work.

I wholeheartedly agree. That's what law and business schools are there for.

In any case, what you say is a depressing truth. I felt ashamed when i heard my professor saying how technical and manual labour were less dignified than, for example, being a college professor. And that that's why it's fair he earns so much more than them. And he claims to be a leftist!
It's work what dignifies you, and being able to do a job you enjoy and fits with you is one of the main factors in achieving happiness. I can understand that a professor makes more money, because they need skills that are harder to acquire and take to train. But that doesn't confer them any superior "dignity". And it's this kind of mindset that hauls talent to college, whether they like it or not.

[Janus%TheDoorman]

The issue with fostering respect for skilled labor on par with people trading on their intelligence is that it's the people trading on their intelligence that have the most influence on our philosophy, and who are more often singularly important to developments in society.

I'm not saying it's impossible, or something we should give up on, but the smartest men and women of society have been lauding intellectual pursuits over physical professions since Aristotle. The relatively sudden press for as many kids as possible to head off to get degrees has made it painfully obvious that degrees are not easy guarantees of gainful employment. Decades of campaigns promoting education as the cure to society's ills have led a lot of people who were simply after financial stability to pursue degrees that aren't well suited to what they're after. Colleges, rather than give up these new students have tried desperately to adapt their programs to provide job skills rather than general education, and both their curriculum and the potential skills of their graduating classes have suffered for the compromise. As the glut of "overqualified" job candidates without the proper skills struggle to find employment, trade schools will become more attractive, and as they become an obviously viable option, the associated dignity will increase by virtue of a loss of respect for more difficult to utilize degrees.

A campaign to promote developing skills and applying them as part of your country's workforce as patriotic would probably help speed things along.

[Rei]

The issue is particularly on my mind as there has been a sequence of articles at the BBC on a major hike in tuition fees which came shortly after a few articles complaining about how percentage-wise, the UK has fewer university graduates and it was spoken of as a Bad Thing. And with that mentality, combined with a major hike in tuition, either university becomes even more of a status symbol and a class divider, or a lot of people go very, very deep into debt. Or possibly both. And the only way I can see to really deal with the issue (that being that the government either doesn't have money to put into the universities or doesn't want to do so) is to encourage trade schools which cost a lot less and, quite frankly, are probably a better place for many people.

A campaign promoting the trades is pretty much exactly what I would like to see.

[neo-dragon]

Toronto's "Afrocentric" school replaced its black principal with a white guy.

I just think it's funny, is all.

Also, a principal in Halifax wants to make his school "Afrocentric" as well.

[neo-dragon]

Hobbit Racism Controversy

[Janus%TheDoorman]

...

Aren't hobbits meant to be fantastical counterparts to rural English folk? Would anyone be upset if they didn't want a black guy to play Odin or Thor...

And now I'm seeing that people complained when Idris Elba was cast as Heimdall in the upcoming movie.

I don't even...

[Dr. Mobius]

If they can make John Rhys-Davies four feet tall, making a brown woman white should be a piece of cake.

[Jayelle]

But...but... If you don't want to be judged on your race (or your LOOKS), DON'T BE AN ACTOR. Casting HAS to be based on looks. It's not racism, it's CASTING. Accuse Tolkien of racism, sure, but not the casting director. Lame.

[neo-dragon]

To be fair, I'm no Tolkien scholar but I don't recall it saying in any of his works that there aren't dark skinned hobbits. It just seems unlikely based on implied geography.

[Rei]

The BBC, if I recall correctly, has a colourblind casting policy. I'm not saying it would work everywhere, but it certainly can work more places than not.

[Eaquae Legit]

To be fair, I'm no Tolkien scholar but I don't recall it saying in any of his works that there aren't dark skinned hobbits. It just seems unlikely based on implied geography.

Casting policies aside, I think it's strongly implied any time they mention the "swarthy" or "dark" Southrons. It's taken as something unusual in the more northern parts of Middle Earth.

As to casting, well, I'm being descriminated against because I'm too tall, and I'm not whining. I don't fit the requirements for the role. Simple.

[Mich]

Casting policies aside, I think it's strongly implied any time they mention the "swarthy" or "dark" Southrons.

Is that what "swarthy" means? Holy crap!

*one Google later*

It is! Well I'll be. I always assumed it meant "rugged" or "swashbuckling." It even looks like swashbuckling!