Ordinances, Sacraments, Rituals, Practices, etc.

[Jayelle]

You just said you loathe people who claim to be Christians but aren't. But who are you to decide that they aren't Christians and who are you to loathe them? That sounds like a pretty un-Christian attitude to me, especially when Jesus says the second-greatest commandment is to love your neighbour.

[Eaquae Legit]

I know. I don't judge who God saves, He does. God might easily save C S Lewis for his own purposes. I simply do not think that Lewis is currently in a salvific frame of mind.

Also, if you have read the Narnia series, you may have realized the allegorical parallels for the characters (C S Lewis himself has attributed to this I believe). In one novel, h "Lion" aka God, tells one child that he will accept some guy because he followed the Witch aka Satan with a whole heart. So he is saying that as long as you follow your religion faithfully, you are really worshipping God even though you don't know it. I think this is a load of bull.

Go read them again. You can't even get the stories right. Emet was a Calormene, who worshipped Tash, not the White Witch. Tash was a god, the White Witch was not. They don't even appear in the same book. The "Lion", Aslan, accepted Emet because he was striving toward good, toward a relationship with the Divine, even though he didn't know about Aslan. It wasn't Emet's fault the god his family and society followed wasn't Aslan. Also, Tash wasn't a Satan cognate, merely an Other God. The Narnian chronicles weren't intended as allegory anyway. There are comparisons to be made, that is sure, but allegory is much more heavy-handed than Narnia.

And, um, Lewis isn't in ANY frame of mind at the moment. He's been dead since 1963.

You go ahead and loathe whoever you want. But I'd suggest reading the parable of the Good Samaritan again (Samaritans were hated by Jews, and Jesus went and associated with them and told nice stories about them). God never commands us to hate. Forgiveness and unmerited love are the callings he set us to.

Pardon me for saying, but article 1260 is NOT holy writ. I is simply a statement of what the Catholics like to believe.

No, it isn't. But you asked what Catholics believe. That's the answer. Don't get all huffy about it.

[Rei]

I know. I don't judge who God saves, He does. God might easily save C S Lewis for his own purposes. I simply do not think that Lewis is currently in a salvific frame of mind.

Also, if you have read the Narnia series, you may have realized the allegorical parallels for the characters (C S Lewis himself has attributed to this I believe). In one novel, h "Lion" aka God, tells one child that he will accept some guy because he followed the Witch aka Satan with a whole heart. So he is saying that as long as you follow your religion faithfully, you are really worshipping God even though you don't know it. I think this is a load of bull.

The Narnian Chronicles were not an allegory, but, as Lewis called them, a supposition. This is part of why it is so hard to find consistent parallels in the Chronicles. I will confess, you baffle me with your dislike of his works and theology. I can understand if you just don't like to read fiction, or don't like to read apologetics or other theology, but to speak so vehemently against all he wrote and taught? it is a rare person who claims to be a Christian who does so.

Out of curiosity, what works of Lewis's have you read? And I might suggest that you do a very, very careful reading or re-reading of Mere Christianity as well as the Narnian Chronicles before you make anymore uneducated and poorly reasoned attacks on C. S. Lewis.

Pardon me for saying, but article 1260 is NOT holy writ. I is simply a statement of what the Catholics like to believe.

It may not be holy writ, but it IS the official teaching and interpretation of the Catholic Church, which is what you were asking about. And before you make any snide comments on interpretation, do be aware that any understanding anyone has about the Bible is passed through the filter of their interpretation. And yes, this even includes your own understanding of the Bible. It all hinges on how you interpret what has been written.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

The "Lion", Aslan, accepted Emet because he was striving toward good, toward a relationship with the Divine, even though he didn't know about Aslan. It wasn't Emet's fault the god his family and society followed wasn't Aslan.

But thats exactly what I'm talking about. He was worshipping SOME OTHER GOD besides Aslan, or the judeo-christian God. In reality, God does not condone worship of other gods, he despises it. we cannot say he was right in what he did just because he thought he was doing good.

[Eaquae Legit]

The "Lion", Aslan, accepted Emet because he was striving toward good, toward a relationship with the Divine, even though he didn't know about Aslan. It wasn't Emet's fault the god his family and society followed wasn't Aslan.

But thats exactly what I'm talking about. He was worshipping SOME OTHER GOD besides Aslan, or the judeo-christian God. In reality, God does not condone worship of other gods, he despises it. we cannot say he was right in what he did just because he thought he was doing good.

No, I don't think you're getting what I meant. Aslan accepts Emet because - through absolutely no fault of his own - Emet did not know Aslan, but still sought him. He was given Tash by his culture and family, but in his heart he was seeking for the truth, for Aslan. Lewis was making the point that only God can know what is in a person's heart, and only God can judge. Emet was worshipping Aslan, even though he had never known about him.

Otherwise, there's a heck of a lot of Jews, small tribal nations, Asians, and various others who God condemned to hell for the unavoidable - yet unforgivable - sin of not ever being told about Jesus. That just doesn't compute.

[Jayelle]

What EL said, plus the story of the Sheep and the Goats from Matthew hints at people following Jesus without realizing it.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

No, I don't think you're getting what I meant. Aslan accepts Emet because - through absolutely no fault of his own - Emet did not know Aslan, but still sought him. He was given Tash by his culture and family, but in his heart he was seeking for the truth, for Aslan. Lewis was making the point that only God can know what is in a person's heart, and only God can judge. Emet was worshipping Aslan, even though he had never known about him.

Otherwise, there's a heck of a lot of Jews, small tribal nations, Asians, and various others who God condemned to hell for the unavoidable - yet unforgivable - sin of not ever being told about Jesus. That just doesn't compute.

"Emet was worshipping Aslan, even though he had never known about him" ?!?! That's like saying I majored in subcellular physics even though I never studied it; it doesn't make any sense. If God wishes for somebody to go to heaven, He reveals himself to that person. As to all the people before Christ; perhaps you remember how, after His ressurection, Christ descended into Hell? This is called "The Harrowing of Hell" and it is when God took all those whom he had chosen who lived before Christ out of Hell into Heaven. So it's perfectly fair. Emet could not seek for something of which he was unaware unless it is Truth. You are absolutely right that only God can know what is in a person's heart, and that only God can judge, but unless "emet" the ignorant idolist/pagan/infedel actually was made aware of God, he could not be saved.

[Jayelle]

perhaps you remember how, after His ressurection,Christ descended into Hell? This is called "The Harrowing of Hell" and it is when God took all those whom he had chosen who lived before Christ out of Hell into Heaven.

Ha. Dude, you get all huffy about Rei quoting Catholic Doctrine, and now here you are talking straight from the Catechism.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

That point is also straight from the Bible. Just because I disagree with Catholics doesn't mean they don't have some points of truth, like this and the Doctrine of the Trinity, etc.

[Jayelle]

Actually, it's not "straight from the bible". It's an interpretation of various verses in the bible.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

Oops. My apologies, Jayelle. You're right, it doesn't say anything about Christ collecting people like Abraham and Adam from Hell.
I guess, then, that because the content of Faith was different before the time of Christ, that believing that Christ died for their sins was not a requirement for being saved, because he hadn't died yet.

verse 4, "By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain..."

verse 7, "By faith Noah... moved with Godly fear..."

verse 8, " By faith Abraham obeyed whan he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheretance"

verse 13, " These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

verse 16, "But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them."

Thank you, Jayelle, for making me realize my mistake.

[Eaquae Legit]

Actually, it's not "straight from the bible". It's an interpretation of various verses in the bible.

What Jan said. High five?

As to the rest, I reject your version of God as cruel and unworthy of worship. The God I know and worship is fulsomely loving, granting unmerited grace, and willing all men to salvation. He wishes all men to go to heaven, and reveals himself even to those who were never explicitly given the gospel. He reveals himself in the workings of nature, the urge toward doing good, and yes, the moral teachings of other religions which lead men to act in a manner in accordance with his will.

I will not and cannot ever worship a God who wills men to eternal suffering, even by a sin of omission.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

seems we posted around the same time; see my previous post.

If God wished all men to go to heaven, then they would. He is all powerful, and he has no reason to do what he does not wish to do.

Unfortunately, he doesn't reveal enough of Himself in nature, it seems, because so many people believe He did not create it.

God wills men toward eternal suffering because it is just. Does not the potter have power over the clay? Cannot the potter make two vessels, one for honour and one for dishonour? (I may have paraphrazed a little, but I'm too lazy right now to look up the exact verse. I can if you want me to.)

If you cannot worship a perfectly just God, try Allah or Kira.

[Eaquae Legit]

If you cannot worship a perfectly just God, try Allah or Kira.

Nerys, Reon, or Pohl?

[Rei]

A Baptist dies and goes to heaven where he is met by St. Peter. St. Peter takes him on the grand tour, and the Baptist notices a large building and asks Peter about it. Peter tells him, "Well, if you're really quiet I can show you." So Peter opens the door softly and the Baptist looks in to see a dour room full of people kneeling in hard, wooden pews, praying. Peter closes the door and the Baptist asks him about them. Peter replies, "They're Mennonites. They don't think anyone else made it."

[jotabe]

Well, CT, what if i told you that some atheists believe in God more than you do? Where do you think i could take that from?

[Taalcon]

If God wished all men to go to heaven, then they would. He is all powerful, and he has no reason to do what he does not wish to do.

Unfortunately, he doesn't reveal enough of Himself in nature, it seems, because so many people believe He did not create it.

God wills men toward eternal suffering because it is just. Does not the potter have power over the clay? Cannot the potter make two vessels, one for honour and one for dishonour? (I may have paraphrazed a little, but I'm too lazy right now to look up the exact verse. I can if you want me to.)

If you cannot worship a perfectly just God, try Allah or Kira.

The following is my personal understanding and opinion:

In my opinion, a God who creates with the intent to take pleasure in destroying is not Just, he is cruel, and not worthy of love. It would be the same as parents who reproduce just so they can call their children evil, and then immediately begin to torture their children because they feel they deserve it, and they can declare it just, because they brought them into the world. We don't call them good parents, we lock them up in prison.

I believe we're a loving God's offspring who are being given a chance to gain needed experience to become like Dad, if we so choose.

I believe that what is commonly called 'heaven' is a state of ultimate freedom that results from individual choices we make, as facilitated by God's (necessary) assistance.

I also firmly believe that at some point, everyone (whether in this life or the next) will have the opportunity to make an informed decision. Our personalities don't change when we die. We're not suddenly brainwashed into a state of bliss or acceptance. How we condition ourselves here, and how we adhere to truths we do know directly affects who we are over There.

One thing God will not do is force someone into a result they did not knowingly choose, whether it be heaven or hell. That's wouldn't be freedom, that's slavery. And it just wouldn't work.

And 'Hell' isn't a torture pit. What is generally thought of as hell is, for all intents and purposes, the state of recognition of choices that led to unfulfilled potential.

All IMHO, of course.

[Rei]

I think that is the crux of it all, CT:CT.
Crazy Tom: C Toon wrote:

God wills men toward eternal suffering because it is just.

versus
Taalcon wrote:

In my opinion, a God who creates with the intent to take pleasure in destroying is not Just, he is cruel, and not worthy of love. It would be the same as parents who reproduce just so they can call their children evil, and then immediately begin to torture their children because they feel they deserve it, and they can declare it just, because they brought them into the world. We don't call them good parents, we lock them up in prison.

If God creates people who never get to hear the name of Jesus, or who hear it only horribly mis-represented, then it cannot be just to simply condemn them for not having chosen to believe in Christianity. In order for God to in fact be a just God, there has to be a mechanism in place for these people to have a chance at seeing heaven. While stories have been told of individuals who looked at the world around them and became sure that it must have been created by a single God, and they were later introduced to Christianity, it happens too seldom that this be a just mechanism. Whatever means God uses with people who have never heard fairly of Christianity or heard of it at all, they must be based on something that all people in this situation experience (and let's face it, not everyone is introspective enough or cares enough about the origins of things to meditate upon creation long enough to find God -- some folks are a bit more practical).

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

I could simply point out that life isn't fair, but I suppose that would be deflecting the question.

God created men who were predestined to do evil and go to Hell so that he could be further glorified. Who could know light without dark; who could know God's true holiness without evil? If God really were ABSOLUTELY just, EVERYBODY would go to Hell, no exceptions. But in His mercy he sent His Son to die on the cross for those certain elect few, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the earth (see: Ephesians chapters 1 and 2). You all think that my point of view is portraying God to be overly cruel, whereas I see it as being overly kind.

Also, only God's elect are his "children." His elect, and the Jews. If everybody were God's children, how could God ever have the heart to send any one of them to eternal torture? Because they are not His children. He does want all His children to go to Heaven, so they do. those who are not go to Hell.

[Sonikku13]

Christianity did not start out as one religion and branched off, it started with multiple sects, and eventually one faith became large enough - the Catholic Church - to call itself the "correct" faith. So what about the other sects? We don't know much about them, but their ancient texts contrast from the Bible.

[Taalcon]

If God creates people who never get to hear the name of Jesus, or who hear it only horribly mis-represented, then it cannot be just to simply condemn them for not having chosen to believe in Christianity. In order for God to in fact be a just God, there has to be a mechanism in place for these people to have a chance at seeing heaven.

I believe there is.

[Taalcon]

Also, only God's elect are his "children." His elect, and the Jews. If everybody were God's children, how could God ever have the heart to send any one of them to eternal torture?

I don't believe that God sends anyone to Eternal Torture. I do believe that He does, however, allow his children to choose to not live up to their full potential.

[Satya]

God is Holy. We are not. We chose that path. We choose it every day. God did indeed put a mechanism in place whereby we may, upon being freed of the flesh (which is impure and therefore incompatible with a Holy God) to be reunited with Him, the Source and Creator. Salvation then, is choosing that which He has ordained for us to be redeemed. Damnation then, is rejecting it. Heaven then, is eternal union with God Almighty, the Creator. Hell then, is eternal separation from a Holy God by our own volition.

[Rei]

If God creates people who never get to hear the name of Jesus, or who hear it only horribly mis-represented, then it cannot be just to simply condemn them for not having chosen to believe in Christianity. In order for God to in fact be a just God, there has to be a mechanism in place for these people to have a chance at seeing heaven.

I believe there is.

Oh I know you do, much as I do, although we may not entirely agree upon what the mechanism is. We both know you are not so Calvinistic as all that

I'm more concerned with the fact that there must be some such a mechanism in order for the word "justice" to have any meaning.

[jotabe]

God created men who were predestined to do evil and go to Hell so that he could be further glorified. Who could know light without dark; who could know God's true holiness without evil? If God really were ABSOLUTELY just, EVERYBODY would go to Hell, no exceptions.

According to you, God himself would go to hell himself, because of him being the origin of evil. You say that God creates evil people to glorify himself (!!!). But upon creating evil people, he has to be evil himself, or harbor evil inside. Because you say many times that something cannot come from nothing: the soul of an evil person created as such, is evil, and to create an evil soul God has to do it from his own evil, there is no way around it.
Also, remember that the human souls are created to his image and likeness, so if he create evil souls, again, they have to reflect his own evil.

And you go and trust a God that is telling you so many times "i am evil"? And you believe him fair and good? Because such a god is much more likely to be lying to you, so he can enjoy your puzzled look when you are sent to hell. What's going to stop him from doing so, anyway, if he is all-powerful?

[Taalcon]

God created men who were predestined to do evil and go to Hell so that he could be further glorified.

Who do you consider abetter parents? Those who neglects a large percentage of their children, or those who do all they can to see that each and every one of their children have (at the very least) all of the opportunities to amount to the fulness of potential that they themselves had?

I'd worship and serve a God whose purpose is to give a legitimate opportunity for all of his children to become like him - for serving Him would consist of participating in helping everyone else achieve this purpose.

But I would certainly not have any desire to worship or serve any being that who randomly made some people for the sole purpose of torturing them forever in order to make himself look better.

[jotabe]

Apocatastasis.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

God created men who were predestined to do evil and go to Hell so that he could be further glorified. Who could know light without dark; who could know God's true holiness without evil? If God really were ABSOLUTELY just, EVERYBODY would go to Hell, no exceptions.

According to you, God himself would go to hell himself, because of him being the origin of evil. You say that God creates evil people to glorify himself (!!!). But upon creating evil people, he has to be evil himself, or harbor evil inside. Because you say many times that something cannot come from nothing: the soul of an evil person created as such, is evil, and to create an evil soul God has to do it from his own evil, there is no way around it.
Also, remember that the human souls are created to his image and likeness, so if he create evil souls, again, they have to reflect his own evil.

And you go and trust a God that is telling you so many times "i am evil"? And you believe him fair and good? Because such a god is much more likely to be lying to you, so he can enjoy your puzzled look when you are sent to hell. What's going to stop him from doing so, anyway, if he is all-powerful?

I have said it before, but since you apparently didn't read that post, I'll say it again:

God did not create evil. He created man as holy with the option to do evil (as adam did). Evil is simply the absence of good (see Augustine's confessions) God decreed that Adam would Fall because without evil, we, God's creation, could not truly worship God as we ought, because we could not know Him.

Taalcon: I'll say it again: Only God's elect are his "children." Therefore, he only has to act like a father to the Elect, and like a righteous judge to those who are not. It seems you do not believe in Hell, though (?), so I see no real point in debating this particular issue when we disagree on this basic premise. if otherwise, however, please see Ephesians chapters one and two in order to understand my point about God saving His children i.e. the Elect and condemning those who are not.

[Taalcon]

Taalcon: I'll say it again: Only God's elect are his "children." Therefore, he only has to act like a father to the Elect, and like a righteous judge to those who are not. It seems you do not believe in Hell, though (?), so I see no real point in debating this particular issue when we disagree on this basic premise. if otherwise, however, please see Ephesians chapters one and two in order to understand my point about God saving His children i.e. the Elect and condemning those who are not.

Oh, I understood you, and am familiar with the scriptures you cited. I just completely disagree with your conclusions.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

I wasn't sure if you understod me because you started talking about how all mankind was His "children" again.

I see why you look upon my view with disfavor, but that it the way the Bible says that it works, and as long as you view us (mankind) as God's totally unable creation rather than as a deserving group of children, it becomes quite clear how it all works and how kind God has been compared to how he could have been.

[Taalcon]

that it the way the Bible says that it works

You mean, "That's the way I interpret what the Bible says." We disagree on that interpretation.

[Eaquae Legit]

that it the way the Bible says that it works

You mean, "That's the way I interpret what the Bible says." We disagree on that interpretation.

Indeed. And it's hilarious to me that my conception of God is closer to Taal's than CTCT's. (Hi Dave!)

You know what, CTCT? God says very directly and literally in the Bible that we have to eat his flesh and drink his blood, or we have no life in us. When people complained, he told them too bad, that's the way it is. You pick and choose what you want to be literal based on your own preconceived ideas of what God "meant". Drop the hypocrisy and admit that what you believe is very largely based on subjective interpretation of scripture.

[Taalcon]

Indeed. And it's hilarious to me that my conception of God is closer to Taal's than CTCT's. (Hi Dave!)

I'm really not surprised at all. Remember, we're both part of non-Christian cults after all.

[Eaquae Legit]

So it seems, lol. (Make sure to check your PMs, k?)

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

From all your talk about my "interpretations" as you call them, you clearly did not go and read Ephesians like I requested. Paul is very clear and precise on this subject.

Also, EL, please point out the part where it says that only Christ's literal flesh and blood is capable of removing sin.