Philotic Web

I really do like Order of the Phoenix the most.... too bad there's no way they're going to compress the book into a decent movie... well I hope they at least do the Ministry of Magic justice.

If you did a non-verbal spell, would it be more powerful or less powerful than if you said it verbally?

Also, do you think it would be possible to say one spell out loud but do a different spell at the same time non-verbally?

I'd imagine the power of a spell doesn't necessarily depend on whether it's verbal or not -- I think a person could make a non-verbal spell really powerful if they concentrated all their magic into it, while verbally it's probably easier to concentrate your magic, but it'd be entirely possible to make a verbal spell weaker than a non-verbal spell. So, short answer... sometimes? lol.

I don't think it would be possible to do two spells at a time -- in very quick succession, yes, but I think to make a spell work you've got to concentrate on it enough to not concentrate on something else. Does that make sense?

I've always liked Azkaban the best--it was the one that really hooked me into the series.

If you did a non-verbal spell, would it be more powerful or less powerful than if you said it verbally?

Also, do you think it would be possible to say one spell out loud but do a different spell at the same time non-verbally?

I'd imagine the power of a spell doesn't necessarily depend on whether it's verbal or not -- I think a person could make a non-verbal spell really powerful if they concentrated all their magic into it, while verbally it's probably easier to concentrate your magic, but it'd be entirely possible to make a verbal spell weaker than a non-verbal spell. So, short answer... sometimes? lol.

I don't think it would be possible to do two spells at a time -- in very quick succession, yes, but I think to make a spell work you've got to concentrate on it enough to not concentrate on something else. Does that make sense?

I actually didn't phrase the second question the way I thought i did...I meant to ask if it were possible to just do the non-verbal spell but say a different spell (but not do that one). So...if someone were to say Avada Kedavra out loud, but do Impedimenta non-verbally. So that way, only the Impedimenta would work...I guess it wold be to sort of confuse the other person, so they don't know what spell you're doing. Does that make sense?

I actually didn't phrase the second question the way I thought i did...I meant to ask if it were possible to just do the non-verbal spell but say a different spell (but not do that one). So...if someone were to say Avada Kedavra out loud, but do Impedimenta non-verbally. So that way, only the Impedimenta would work...I guess it wold be to sort of confuse the other person, so they don't know what spell you're doing. Does that make sense?

Ah, sorry. Hm, that is a good question. My guess would be yes, especially if you've practiced the spell so much that you can say it without thinking consciously about the words.

OK, I re-thought my Dumbledore theory with a friend and we came up with a revised one:

• Snape tells his first year potions class that he can teach them to “put a stopper to death”
• Snape and Lily were both in Slughorn’s Slug Club
• Lily was beautiful, Snape had secret feelings for her
• Snape was mad that Lily married James
• Snape overheard only part of the prophecy and reported to Voldemort
• Snape pleaded for Lily’s life but didn’t mind if Voldemort killed James
• Voldemort didn’t want to kill Lily, hence the, “step aside, there’s no need for you to die” etc...
• Snape really is on the good side, proof of this is when Snape hesitates to agree to the third clause of the unbreakable vow in HBP, he must finish Draco’s task if Draco is unable to...
• Snape tells Dumbledore about the unbreakable vow between him and Malfoy
• Snape is investigating to people in Slytherin, finds out when Malfoy is planning on springing his attack
• Snape tells Dumbledore he doesn’t want to “do it any more”, "do it any more" referring to the unbreakable vow/finish Draco's task
• Dumbledore and harry go to the cave
• Dumbledore drinks potion to get locket
• Harry and Dumbledore land and Dumbledore stuns Harry
• Dumbledore pleads with Severus, it sounds as if he’s pleading for his life, but he is actually asking Severus to pretend to kill him before the petrificus totalus on harry wears off
• Snape non-verbally does a spell that shoots a green light but knocks Dumbledore off the tower (similar to Impedimenta?) while saying Avada Kedavra (see the previous two posts for an explanation of how that would work)
• In all other scenes with the Killing Curse, it made people drop dead, not blast backwards, therefore proof that Dumbledore might not be dead
• Snape tells the other Death Eaters to leave quickly in case they find out Dumbledore is still alive
• Hagrid places Dumbledore’s body on the unlit pyre, they light it, Harry thinks he sees a phoenix fly into the sky
• Dumbledore is actually an animagus, he turns into a phoenix and flies away


One reason for this is that if Dumbledore is alive, Harry will not be able to kill Voldemort because he will rely on Dumbledore, therefore Dumbledore must die in order for Harry to kill Voldemort. BUT, Dumbledore doesn't neccesarily HAVE to die. Harry must only THINK that Dumbledore is dead.

Also, Rowling's words mean nothing until the book is out. She can say anything she wants about it just to lead us away from certain topics.

Any new comments?

i admire your creativity. and i appreciate your obvious esteem for one of the greatest characters of the series. but it's time to face the facts, kid.

Dumbledore is dead.

for one thing, to my knowledge, JKR has never given her fans false information. if she does not wish to reveal specific details about future developments in the series, she simply does not reveal them. i think it is safe to take her statement that Dumbledore has died as pure canon.

however, once again, a point by point deconstruction of your theory:

• Snape tells his first year potions class that he can teach them to “put a stopper to death”

this is, again, a misquote. see my previous post.

• Snape and Lily were both in Slughorn’s Slug Club

i've lent my copy of the 6th book to a friend, but i'm pretty sure this is canon. if not, i'm willing to make this assumption.

• Lily was beautiful, Snape had secret feelings for her

a popular theory. not sure where i stand on it just yet. but there is some textual evience to support it. it's a fairly logical conclusion.

• Snape was mad that Lily married James

if he loved her, that's quite possible.

• Snape overheard only part of the prophecy and reported to Voldemort

yes. canon.

• Snape pleaded for Lily’s life but didn’t mind if Voldemort killed James

first of all, i am not sure Snape even knew the Potters were the targets at this time. it could've been Harry or Neville, remember, and Voldemort is the one who made the choice.

regardless, my point from my previous post still stands. no one, not Snape, not Wormtail, not Lucius, not Bellatrix, no one tells Voldemort what to do and survives. very rarely does anyone even make a request. ever. his power over his "minions" is absolute. they fear him as much as the others do.

not to mention that Voldemort does not care for love or even really believe in it, and would have no interest or sympathy regarding Snape's plight. furthermore, Lily is muggle-born, and therefore anathema to Voldemort. Snape would not be likely to confess his love of a muggle-born to the Dark Lord.

• Voldemort didn’t want to kill Lily, hence the, “step aside, there’s no need for you to die” etc...

i've always interpreted that as "couldn't really be bothered" as opposed to "didn't want." it's a subtle difference, but if he didn't initially intend to kill her, it's not because he'd rather she lived. it's because he had another goal to focus on.

• Snape really is on the good side, proof of this is when Snape hesitates to agree to the third clause of the unbreakable vow in HBP, he must finish Draco’s task if Draco is unable to...

i do agree with you here. this scene is one of many that supports the Snape is Good theory, to which i certainly subscribe.

• Snape tells Dumbledore about the unbreakable vow between him and Malfoy
• Snape is investigating to people in Slytherin, finds out when Malfoy is planning on springing his attack
• Snape tells Dumbledore he doesn’t want to “do it any more”, "do it any more" referring to the unbreakable vow/finish Draco's task

canon, canon, and canon with supported interpretation.

• Dumbledore and harry go to the cave
• Dumbledore drinks potion to get locket
• Harry and Dumbledore land and Dumbledore stuns Harry

canon, canon, canon

• Dumbledore pleads with Severus, it sounds as if he’s pleading for his life, but he is actually asking Severus to pretend to kill him before the petrificus totalus on harry wears off

canon, and i agree with your interpretation, except for the "before the spell wears off" bit. i'm pretty sure the spell can't wear off unless it's caster dies. it must be lifted. or broken. but i don't believe it wears off. *wishes she had books with her*

• Snape non-verbally does a spell that shoots a green light but knocks Dumbledore off the tower (similar to Impedimenta?) while saying Avada Kedavra (see the previous two posts for an explanation of how that would work)

here's where most of your creativity comes in. unfortunately, i still believe it's fruitless. we have never seen an example of this in the text before, and JKR is meticulous about planting things far in advance. this is altogether too Deus Ex Machina.

• In all other scenes with the Killing Curse, it made people drop dead, not blast backwards, therefore proof that Dumbledore might not be dead

i don't have my book so i can't contradict you, but i'd be wary to hang my theory on this one detail.

• Snape tells the other Death Eaters to leave quickly in case they find out Dumbledore is still alive

i seriously doubt this is the reason for the retreat.

• Hagrid places Dumbledore’s body on the unlit pyre, they light it, Harry thinks he sees a phoenix fly into the sky
• Dumbledore is actually an animagus, he turns into a phoenix and flies away

this cheapens death. i agree with you that Dumbledore must be dead in order for Harry to have his final showdown with Voldemort. but this fake death thing is cheap, it's harmful to the characters emotionally, and Dumbledore has already exhausted his purpose within the story. he has done what he can for Harry. if he were to live, his existence would be robbed of meaning. (this is, of course, getting into symbolic-talk here. not literal).

but mostly, Dumbledore himself does not fear death, and makes that statement many times.

it's time to accept the facts and begin the grieving process.


don't get me wrong, i love debating Harry Potter lore. and i'd love you to keep posting, but perhaps on a topic that has not been definitively settled by the author. such as What Side Is Snape On? or Will Harry Survive? or How Will Voldemort Be Killed? or Who Will Die In The Next Book?

The trouble with believing Dumbledore is dead begins with the comparison between him and Gandalf. Gandalf came back, so Dumbledore must come back too!

Face the facts, though. JKR is no JRR. Dumbledore is no Gandalf. Dumbledore is dead. Dead as a doornail.

sad, but true.

I still like my Snape is Harry's dad theory. Lily and Snape had too much fun in the potions closet...

That makes no sense. Everyone is always saying how much Harry looks like James (except for Lily's eyes).

Snape and James were identical twins before a terrible, disfiguring accident made Snape slimy.

and Hermione is TOTALLY Voldemort's daughter who was adopted at birth and has not yet learned of her true heritage. when her true blood-line is revealed to her, Hermione will get a makeover to get rid of her bushy hair and start answering to her birthname, Selena Silver Moon Cloud Raven Riddle. she has been betrothed to Draco since infancy. she is the hawtness. prepare yourselves!

I don't give much credence to big theories but this guy makes some EXCELLENT points, I still think he's reading the character reactions wrong, but it does make me very, very suspicious.

http://community.livejournal.com/unplot ... tml#cutid1

If Snape does turn out to be good, this would make a fabulous mirror of that aspect and explain pretty much every plot hole that occurs if Snape is good (if he's bad then they're not holes, but explainable through Snape being a double agent).

Adam

it's interesting, and supported with canon text, which i appreciate.


however, i don't believe a word of it.


i'll back up my opinion with canon when and if i summon the energy to do so.

great find, though, adam. one of the most original and interesting theories i've heard in ages.

I don't believe it either. I can't back it up with canon, but -- and this is the weakest argument ever -- I just get a good vibe from that character. I'm attached.

I don't know, it sounds plausible... She does take a background role for being in the position she is in, and it is time for her to show her true colors, I mean she's running the school now...

i also happen to be rereading chamber of secrets and I think I disproved it with the way McGonnagal reacts to Harry and Ron's arrival. she's upset and disapointed and punishes them but she does provide them with food and only gives thema detention. I think the theory only works out of the context of the books and all of mcgonnagal's scenes, because circumstantially you can twist everything into a negative light if you try hard, but that's just not her character at all.