Our Purpose...what is it?

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!
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Postby Boothby » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:23 am

Rei,

Sure, there's a certain poetry that can be found in the premise of a kind, benevolent God--even of a cruel God. But there's also poetry to be found in Asimov, Bradbury, and Card. It doesn't make any of it true. Not "true" in a real sense, though it may find a place in your heart.
The universe is the macrocosmos and the human being is the microcosmos: we are both made to the pattern of the image of God; we reflect each other and we both reflect God
A poetic statement, though without any real truth value (except for the aforementioned emotional resonance)
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Postby jotabe » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:35 am

"Slave"--in this case "mind slave"--isn't the right term. To a degree, yes, we lock ourselves into a worshipful attitude, but it's a choice believers make.
With that term i am not referring to that, instead i am referring to the belief some hold that the purpouse of the life of human beings is to worship God and reach the extatic contemplation of him, and also referring to these same people believing that God made us so, programmed us to not be able to reach happiness except in him. This is what i call mean spirited, in comparison with the being of great power and benevolence and love for beauty one can emotionally (yes, only emotionally) perceive from the universe. Both perspectives just don't match, unless God is physical and suffers a disorder of personality.
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Postby Locke_ » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:18 pm

Whew okay a lot to discuss.
"Slave"--in this case "mind slave"--isn't the right term. To a degree, yes, we lock ourselves into a worshipful attitude, but it's a choice believers make.
With that term i am not referring to that, instead i am referring to the belief some hold that the purpouse of the life of human beings is to worship God and reach the extatic contemplation of him, and also referring to these same people believing that God made us so, programmed us to not be able to reach happiness except in him.
I'm curious about who "some" might be? Some Christians? Some Jews? Some of each and then those of other faiths? Including those who are spiritual without subscribing to a religion? And how many? I want to get the mental picture of what masses you mean.

Also, I'm curious about your definition of "worship"--that is, What comes to mind when you use the word, preferably without taking to a dictionary or another's definition? What does the word mean to you?

There's a point I'm tempted to make now, but I'm more curious about those questions.
This is what i call mean spirited, in comparison with the being of great power and benevolence and love for beauty one can emotionally (yes, only emotionally) perceive from the universe.
Yet the source of emotional perceptions is the same source of scientific and logical conclusions. It's all based on the senses, isn't it? And yet we know there are parts of the universe humans can't perceive, even with the tools we've created to break through barriers. Sometimes we fight through our limitations as fragile beings, but many times we simple work with our limitations. Or is it coincidence that the nature of debate, suggestion, and change are rooted in the way we perceive things in science, philosophy, and emotion?
Both perspectives just don't match, unless God is physical and suffers a disorder of personality.
"Man is more interesting than men. God made him and not them in his image. Each one is more precious than all." - Andre Gide

A mass group of believers doesn't mean God is this mass being. Try, in your head, to individualize him. In the Bible, he is undeniably kind at some moments and cruel at others, forgiving and vengeful, compassionate and envious, salvaging and murderous. To be made in his image is to admit that our crazy emotional roller coasters are rooted in his as well. It's scary to think of, but that perhaps by all rational thought he is unstable. But admitting this gives us a better understanding of both him and ourselves. He came to earth to die, after all. What could be wilder?

To cite a little secular doctrine I've kept in mind lately:
It's just cause and effect. We can never sort them out. Science refuses to admit any cause except first cause-- knock down one domino, the one next to it also falls. But when it comes to human beings, the only type of cause that matters is final cause, the purpose. What a person had in mind. Once you understand what people really want, you can't hate them anymore. You can fear them, but you can't hate them, because you can always find the same desires in your own heart.
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It is not the sound of victory;
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Postby jotabe » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:11 pm

Who? Fundies, but not only them. It's quite extended among the Catholic theologians, that humans can only be free and happy when they are worshipping god, because he made us that way. Of course this doesn't conflict at all with the free will :roll:

Worship? Ok, if you don't want me to go by the dictionary, for me it means feeding someone's ego. You worship some person who does something cool, or someone, so you note how cool they are PUBLICLY. Otherwise i just call it looking up to. There is a necessary public part of the act of worshipping, and that's why it's just inflating someone's ego, because eventually they get wind up of that.
What does any decent person do when they know someone worships them? Tell them to stop, because it's ridiculous. And God, a supposedly all powerful, all knowing, all good being wants us to? why? And here is where the people i said at first come in and say "because that's what makes us happy, because God made us for that."

Source is the same, but processing is completely different. Science perceives and accepts the fact that our knowledge has limitations, and works towards overcoming them if possible. Emotion instead tries to fill in the gaps with imagination and plausible stories that look pretty. And i am telling you this as a believer. Because our brain needs this emotional support, that's how we evolved, so we have to chose the story we believe in. We have evolved to create powerful ideas without any basis on reality, because that helped us build tight-knit societies that enhanced the survival of their members: this is why it is not coincidence. We want to believe.

A mentally unstable god, with tendency to rage and abuse, and theatrical self-sacrifice... sorry, i want nothing to do with that.
Really, man, do you want to make an atheist out of me? :lol:
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Postby Boothby » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:09 pm

Really, man, do you want to make an atheist out of me?
Well, it's certainly too late for me!
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Postby Satya » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:28 pm

It's never too late. Unlearn what you think you know, as the Buddha would say.
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Postby Locke_ » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:32 pm

One can't generalize believers' worship into fundamentalists, unless the point of your posts is specifically aimed at fundamentalists. The don't exactly make up the majority of Christians. Not to say they lack numbers, but one can't (though people do) base all Christians on even one larger group.

The step a Christian must take towards true worship--true acknowledgement and respect toward God--comes in the way the life is lived. Which doesn't mean we ought to be satisfied by saying Oh yes I was born with the purpose of worshipping God. It's too vague. It beats around the bush. It avoids the lesser known depths of what to do with that kind of knowledge.

(An acquaintance once said to me, regarding her taking a couple months to serve a mission, "I was going to go to Thailand, but then God changed my heart." She lashed out when i asked what that even meant. The story isn't what took place before and after the "change of heart" but the process of that act. Asking one's self what that means--that's the kind of God lingo I think people are too often afraid to define or elaborate.)

Let's take Jesus. It's no secret that he rarely told someone without ambiguity how to live. His compassion was in his actions more than his words, with big exceptions like the Sermon on the Mount, when he put it all out there. Jesus represented the first moments when Jews were taught to see how to really live. Apostles and disciples watched his actions as much as they heard his words. Perhaps he literally touched and healed the leper, but in our modern world the same act could be "emotionally" healing--a person who lives with people afraid to touch him/her suddenly meeting someone unafraid to hold their hand. That's amazing. That makes people think and speaks much more than words.

People can live their entire lives as believers and have no way of letting people know of it--people might never guess. There came a point when I decided to challenge myself: to figure out how I could be that human manifestation of what I believed. To be that link between beliefs (which many share) and the world. This search, as uncertain and mysterious as it can be, is the purpose. God doesn't want us to sit in church and worship him, or to pray at night before bed or at dinner and call it a day, or even to just read all the right books for personal comfort. He wants us to examine our own passions and choose to offer them to him (a tough choice, a sacrificial choice, but a choice nonetheless). Then take a leap of faith into something that feels right because why should we follow a path that doesn't give us that feeling of rightness? (I realize people too often do, and I or you one day may, but the question should still be posed.) I think any denomination, once you get to know it, will encourage this. It's a unifier.

The entire experience satisfies the ego to an extent, yes, because that sense of purpose starts to be fulfilled. But it's also humbling to the individual, the act of which on the personality has the antithetical effect on the ego. And one can't tell me that even atheists don't try to feed the ego. Existential psychotherapy is founded on the basis that there is no higher being and no grand meaning, but that the therapy is designed to teach people to create individual personal meanings. To say that religion alone inflates ego is absurd.
Science perceives and accepts the fact that our knowledge has limitations, and works towards overcoming them if possible.Emotion instead tries to fill in the gaps with imagination and plausible stories that look pretty.
When mankind was grounded, some imagined man in flight.
When mankind was limited to earth, some imagined man in space.
When the world was flat, someone imagined that it was round.
When the earth was the center of the universe, someone imagined that it was the sun.

Imagination is not simply a tool used to deal with emotion. It drives science as well. Science has its own gaps to fill, and gaps to create, just like emotion (and to move back to the main point, purpose). Imagination and stories aren't always used to satisfy; as often are they used to compel--"to force or drive, especially to a force of action."
A mentally unstable god, with tendency to rage and abuse, and theatrical self-sacrifice... sorry, i want nothing to do with that.
"Mentally unstable" sound like a clinical term. "Unstable" is an adjective, and one that can even describe lapses in the average person's common sense. Moments of anger, of hate, of frustration or even annoyance. But there is always the joy happiness calmness felt. You can't deny that we feel the spectrum of these things.

To worship God for perfection makes a distance between you and him, draws an unattainable image; to worship him as a creator makes you look around and see all that is created. A God we can relate to. Just because the idea that God feels sadness and jealousy challenges you doesn't mean he wants you to turn your back on him. A hardened mold he can no longer fit would simply need changing. The Bible is very straightforward about his emotions and the results of them.
It is not the sound of victory;
it is not the sound of defeat;
it is the sound of singing that I hear.
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Postby jotabe » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:17 pm

Fundamentalists are, nevertheless, the ones with the ideological muscle strong enough to create the public impression of "what should be".

Btw, about feeding the ego, you misunderstood me. I didn't mean to say feeding the ego of the worshipper, but the ego of the object of worship. Namely, god, or whoever person who happens to be worshipped by another. What kind of God needs his ego fed so badly that he creates people for that?

Sorry, about the imagination, but it isn't like that. For every dream we dream that fits with an unknown reality, thousands are just nonsense. More: the wish to fly came mostly from envy: we saw other beings flying, and we wanted that too. Roundness of the earth and heliocentrism are very clear cases of finding a solution that fits with experimental data better than previous hypotheses.

More often than not, the stories created to compel have catastrophic results, because they appeal to the emotion, not to the facts. Imagination, reason, are good things, as long as they are tightly embridled with facts and data.

You will forgive me, but i want nothing with anyone who allows their emotions get the better of them, be it a person or a god.
And we are justified to feel angry and frustrated! We are so very powerless! We can barely scratch the fabric of reality. What right has an all-powerful being to be angry or frustrated? Frustrated because we want to be autonomous beings? Because we don't love him as much as he wants us to love him after he threatens us?
No thanks. I don't believe God is like that at all, of course. But if i believed he was like that, opposing him, making a stand for human dignity against a schizophrenic tyrant, would be a very honorable thing to do. Hopeless, yes. But honorable.
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Postby Rei » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:01 pm

Rei,

Sure, there's a certain poetry that can be found in the premise of a kind, benevolent God--even of a cruel God. But there's also poetry to be found in Asimov, Bradbury, and Card. It doesn't make any of it true. Not "true" in a real sense, though it may find a place in your heart.
The universe is the macrocosmos and the human being is the microcosmos: we are both made to the pattern of the image of God; we reflect each other and we both reflect God
A poetic statement, though without any real truth value (except for the aforementioned emotional resonance)
Steve, without question, I agree that there is poetry and beauty to be found in Asimov, Bradbury, and Card, as well. I did not write that as a challenge to you or any atheist, nor as any proof of God's existence or non-existence -- merely as my own way of looking at the universe.
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:08 pm

I know all you aetheists are going to hate me for this....

Our only purpose for existence is to glorify God. Evil even glorifies God because it provides contrast; how could you possibly know "light" without "dark"?
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Postby jotabe » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:33 am

I know all you aetheists are going to hate me for this....

Our only purpose for existence is to glorify God. Evil even glorifies God because it provides contrast; how could you possibly know "light" without "dark"?
What shows you believe that God is conceited and evil, as i explained previously.
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Postby Boothby » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:20 pm

Our only purpose for existence is to glorify God. Evil even glorifies God because it provides contrast; how could you possibly know "light" without "dark"?
Nope, don't hate you.

However, I will no longer feel chastized when I am told that Atheists have no purpose in life, while religious people do.

If that is your purpose (glorifying God), then you have no purpose. I was told by another Fundamentalist (such as yourself, or at least the character you play on this forum) that their sole purpose was to "make it into heaven where I can glorify God for all eternity."

I asked him, "Don't you think that God might find that annoying after the first hundred thousand years or so?" He stopped talking to me shortly after that.

But I agree whole-heartedly with Satya: any being that creates puppets for the sole purpose of later glorifying him for all eternity is a supreme egoist. Makes Ayn Rand look like Mother Theresa.
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Postby Locke_ » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:35 pm

Crazy Tom: atheists would expect you to disagree with them, but if I were one I'd be more offended that you would suppose I'd "hate" you for your proclamations. Frustrated yes, but for your putting words in my mouth. That being said, as a fellow believer, I encourage you to be careful about what you proclaim. When you say "our" you include all of humanity; not all of us--believers or nonbelievers--would want to say our purpose is to glorify God and leave it at that. As I've been saying, it's important to know what that expression means to you as an individual believer. You have the "what" of living pretty simply accepted--glorify. You have to ask yourself the How. Beyond prayer, beyond church attendance, beyond Bible reading, and even beyond accepting Christ, you're asked to live out your faith, to put it into your actions and choices and with God's help follow a destined path, should you so ask for one. That's the challenge: the How. So it's neither safe nor fair to generalize millions of believers' purposes in your own rather vague terms.

jotabe: it's scary how much power you choose to give to Fundamentalists. Muscle they do have, but I don't think that they provide even the stereotypical impression of what Christianity is, or how people should act as a result. If any denomination takes that superlative, it should likely go to Catholicism, with the Pope leading as one of the most recognizable titles and figures worldwide. It seems like you have some kind of stern fear over the potential power of the fundamentalists because they are radically old school and diligent. But you shouldn't acknowledge power where power isn't due.

On the ego: You're unwilling to consider--based on stories from the old testament and then human evidence in form of Jesus in the new testament--that God understands human emotion, and as his creations and as we are made in his image, he is responsible for those basic feelings. And yet if part of our purpose is to worship, you're willing to apply a psychological (Freudian) term to the "mind" of God?

You don't think we're meant to worship (even as one aspect of living[?])... You don't think God has any connection with us emotionally... you deny His emotions for which the Bible provides images (at least symbolically)..... I must say that you're idea of God seems distant and unrelatable.
It is not the sound of victory;
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Postby jotabe » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:48 pm

I don't chose to give them any power. They have it, they are THE image of Christianity, as long as noone is willing to challenge them for that. The Catholic church, since you mention it, being a lot closer to the truth, doesn't have the lesser interest in calling them out.
Yes, i do fear them. There is a lot of people who are nowadays regretting not having feared the fundamentalists when it was still time. See the muslim world: 40-50 years ago, what was really popular was arab nationalism with heavy strokes of socialism, and muslim fundamentalism was laughed at outside Saudi Arabia and thought of as a minoritarian current about to be blown by the winds of time.

It's necessary to remember that our emotions are just a survival mechanism. They have an evolutive purpouse. Furthermore, there are very specifical chemicals that trigger our emotional responses. It just make no sense, speking strictly, to assign emotional states to God, when God doesn't have a human being. Whatever kind of being God is, he could have his own emotions, that's true. Stranger than we think, maybe. But more than anything, a thinking being is characterized by being able to keep their emotions under check. Keeping the animalistic/irrational/instinctive part of our nature under control is a virtue, not a defect. Otherwise we are just slaves to our passions. If God is a thinking being at all, if he is free at all, he cannot allow his emotions to control his actions in such evil ways as shown in the old testament. I cannot relate at all to a small child throwing tantrums. Can you?
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Postby Rei » Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:41 pm

While it is true that noisy fundamentalists have an intangible power, it is not quite so great as the news would have you believe. Part of why the Catholic Church doesn't get so easily riled up is partly due to its inertia. Another aspect is the notion of Christ's dispassionate passion. God has given us the passions which allow us to experience him in a powerful way, and yet if we allow our passions to rule us -- as we see often in all forms of fundamentalism -- then they burn us up and leave little to nothing behind.
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Postby Boothby » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:53 pm

My fear is that Christian (and Jewish) fundamentalists have such a sway over the current crop of politicians that soon we'll ALL be burnt up and have nothing left.

And that's just metaphorically speaking. We have a less metaphorical problem with being burnt up and having nothing left with some of the recent Muslim fundamentalists.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:29 pm

Well, I'll have to grant you that. U.S. politics weird me out for that reason (among others, but it's definitely one of them).
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Postby Rei » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:31 pm

Point.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:41 pm

Yes, religion has huge sway over politics, but it can hardly be called fundamentalism.
But I agree whole-heartedly with Satya: any being that creates puppets for the sole purpose of later glorifying him for all eternity is a supreme egoist. Makes Ayn Rand look like Mother Theresa.
He's God, he has a right to be egotistic. The only reason why arrogance is despised in our society is because everybody makes mistakes, including the arrogant, but this is not true of God. He is flawless.
As Sister Carolatta said (In Ender's Shadow I think), and I'm paraphrasing a little, "When you're as smart as he [Bean] is, accurate self-assessment looks like arrogance." The same principle applies to God.
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Postby Locke_ » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:07 am

As our Creator, we acknowledge God as the perfect being, his son as the perfect living being, because they are the utmost and all we know in terms of perfection. But even Jesus among the gospels does not claim perfection. We attribute this to him as the "son of God" which he eventually does proclaim. To us, of course God and the son of God are perfect, but they avoid gloating such to us.

It boggles me that one would challenge the idea of glorifying and worshipping a God even by choice. If one is a believer, one must acknowledge that God is responsible for existence, and each small blessing throughout one's lifetime is a direct result of the big blessing of birth. The ability to fathom. No, I don't think worship should be enforced, nor do i think god himself enforces it, but I do think once a person starts to consider being a believer, an inclination to worship is natural. So whether you attribute this as a subtle way to call us a slave of God, or a non-choice with the mask of free will, is up to you, and I suppose your attitude toward life (cynic, optimist, idealist, etc.). But one would think that if you choose to believe in God, either naturally or logically you would think it right to worship.

(Let me reiterate, so as not to get lost in the abstracts of "worship" and glorification" that I don't think it's as simple as saying those words. That one's vocation or avocations can easily be forms of worship.)

With regards to emotion: Why must we separate the scientific explanation from the Creator? Why can't we explain the emotional system scientifically, here in the form of vaguely mentioning the chemicals at work, and then credit God with the design of such a brain that wields both logic and emotion?

And on emotion and God: I believe in a God who feels what I feel, who can empathize with me. But let me tack something on to what I early said and say that just because God knows emotion does not mean he acts upon them. Jesus himself turned over temples when he lost his temper after witnessing the mistreatment of temples and holy ground. It was one of the few moments when he "threw a tantrum." Basically, i agree with you Rei and jotabe that emotions and passions ought to be kept under control, that not only emotions but the mind should be wielded as well. But to shut out God from an emotional scheme, though he's not limited to our scheme but knows it, is to take away what I think is an opportunity to get closer to him.
It is not the sound of victory;
it is not the sound of defeat;
it is the sound of singing that I hear.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:58 pm

I agree that God doesn't flaunt His perfection. He just knows it is, and acts like it, but he is not overly humble because he doesn't deserve to be.

I also agree that God has emotion. The Bible is very clear when God is "wrathful" or "pleased." However, this is not to say he ever experiences sinful emotions, like lust.
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Postby jotabe » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:22 pm

Because wrath is not a sin :roll:
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:26 pm

... no. Where does it say it is?
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Postby jotabe » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:41 pm

Nevermind, the 7 deadly sins is a Catholic thing. Not that anyone'd know. Maybe if there was a really popular movie about it...
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Postby Satya » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:43 pm

Most emotions in and of themselves are not 'sin.' Just like being tempted is not a sin; everyone's tempted. Everyone feels certain emotions at times. That fact of itself does not constitute sin.
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Postby jotabe » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:49 pm

Wrath, as a sin in theology, implies that is uncontrolled, that is, it manifests outwardly through wrathful behaviour, whether it be words, violence or other forms.
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Postby Satya » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:54 pm

okay bro.
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Crazy Tom: C Toon
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:08 pm

Hence the existence of "Hell." I would call that an outward manefestation of wrath, but it is not a sin because it is perfectly just.
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Postby Jayelle » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:35 pm

I would call Hell the absence of God, and only the absence of God.
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Postby Wil » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:46 pm

I'm not sure if this has been covered or not, as I haven't really read the thread, but I just felt like pointing this out:

God is neither good nor evil. He has no equal, he has no opposite. Contrary to the beliefs of many, Satan/Lucifer/The Fallen One is not the opposite of God, but is more akin to the opposite of Michael, since God created both of them. So, why would Hell (the place where sinners who commit evil acts go) be the absence of God?

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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:58 pm

God is neither good nor evil.
well... not much to say to that except how woefully wrong it is. You are right about God having no equal or counterpart, however. Michael is, like you said, probably the closest counterpart to Satan that you can find. In a certain sence, Hell is the absence of God in that sinners are not able to feel his grace. In another sense, though, Hell cannot exist without God. God CREATED Hell for sinners and it only exists because he allows it to.
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Postby Wil » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:05 pm

How can it be wrong? If you're not one or the other, then you're neither. Or, I suppose you could look at it as being both, or neutral. Also, if they don't feel his grace, then do they feel his damnation?

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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:15 pm

It is wrong because He is perfectly Holy and good.

Yes, they do feel his damnation and not his grace.
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Postby Wil » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:41 pm

Wait. God is perfectly Holy and good, but those in Hell feel his damnation? Doesn't this strike you as a contradiction? Stupid question, of course it doesn't.

I wonder what the "Holy and good" God was thinking when he sent his angels to strike down the innocent first born children of anyone who didn't put lambs blood on their door...

God is both good and evil (or neither good or evil, same difference). God is both. At once. The thing that struck me as odd is how often God is praised as being good, forgiving, caring, and all matter of positive things, but while reading the Bible (at least the Old testament) I constantly came upon instances of God doing brutal things. God would free an entire nation that has been enslaved just as easily as he would order his Angels to kill the slavers children, whom had no part in the enslavement. God would have a man lead this nation for [40?] years to the promised land, only to ban this man from entering. Just a few examples.

Point is, God is both. God would just as easily give you a miracle as he would take it away. Not because one is Good and one is Evil, but because they are opposites. God giveth, and God taketh away. Good and Evil are just words to describe individual points of view. Of course, this is an argument from some other thread, and you didn't believe this either.

I really should stop posting in this forum.

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Postby Satya » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:09 am

I really should stop posting in this forum.
I second that motion.


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