Even if you say that an egg cell is "alive" menstruation would be the natural end of its life. You can't really compare that to a deliberate act of destroying it.If you follow that argument to its conclusion, saying something is "possibly" alive kind of falls apart. What about right when the egg is fertilized? How about before? An egg cell is alive. Is every girl condemning the "possibly" alive every time they have their period?
Pro what?
- neo-dragon
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"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'
By the same measure, sperm dying inside a woman's body is the natural life cycle.Even if you say that an egg cell is "alive" menstruation would be the natural end of its life.
I was referring to something with different DNA that will develop into its own life, so epigenetics is irrelevant (since the DNA is the same), so are individual egg and sperm cells (since neither will become a fetus on its own), and so are mutations (since no mutation will fertilize an egg on its own, I think).
Since the entire topic here is about abortion, the underlying assumption is that we're talking about something that will grow up to be human if you don't kill it, not just random cells (so don't even think about mentioning chimerism, or viruses injecting their own genetic material, or cancer).
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- lyons24000
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Because not enough pro-life people decide to adopt children. It's easier to go to the street and be indignant than actually do something to help.if it got adoptive parents, hundreds of kids go through foster care for years and year
My take on the matter is that, while we definitely have "something" alive there, it is not human. Not at the start, at least. I see the start of the human life when the nervous system starts connecting, around the beginning of the third month. After all our brain, our extremely complicated neural network is what makes us human: without that, we aren't remotely human. We have to experiences, no way to connect ourselves to the world, no way to store memories, not even way to acquire memories (because the nervous tissue isn't connected before then).
A believer as i am in the concept of a physical soul, i can't see an embryo that young having a soul, even.
- Jeesh_girl15
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As a catholic Christian, I believe any type of life has a soul, no matter how small. Anyway, I can't believe anyone is stupid enough to think that abortion/ pro-choice is Ok at all.God made all living things holy and sacred, especially human beings. All you pro-choice freaks out there, Do you think an embryo/unborn baby regardless how old it is nothuman?
Me and my pro-choice friend argue this point all the time, and it doesn't always turn out pretty. Her mom has this button, though, and I think it is hilarious even though I don't agree with it's point. It says
I know it would be so extremely hard on a young girl to have such responsibility on her. But, why have sex in the first place? Again, I am a Catholic, and we oppose pre-marital sex. Not that it doesn't always seem appealing.
Sure, it's called Pro-choice to abort a baby. I think you should have the choice, it's yourbaby you're killing. But, if you do abort it, I call that pro-death.
Well, that's what I think as a 14-year-old kid. I know I'm young, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid
Me and my pro-choice friend argue this point all the time, and it doesn't always turn out pretty. Her mom has this button, though, and I think it is hilarious even though I don't agree with it's point. It says
It's hanging in her car.If You're so pro-life why don't you try getting one?
I know it would be so extremely hard on a young girl to have such responsibility on her. But, why have sex in the first place? Again, I am a Catholic, and we oppose pre-marital sex. Not that it doesn't always seem appealing.
Sure, it's called Pro-choice to abort a baby. I think you should have the choice, it's yourbaby you're killing. But, if you do abort it, I call that pro-death.
Well, that's what I think as a 14-year-old kid. I know I'm young, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid
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I wouldn't provoke the stupid, pro-death freaks if I were you. They are a vulgar, brutish bunch who won't hesitate to sling unwarranted insults your way instead of engaging in meaningful discussion.As a catholic Christian, I believe any type of life has a soul, no matter how small. Anyway, I can't believe anyone is stupid enough to think that abortion/ pro-choice is Ok at all.God made all living things holy and sacred, especially human beings. All you pro-choice freaks out there, Do you think an embryo/unborn baby regardless how old it is nothuman?
. . .
Sure, it's called Pro-choice to abort a baby. I think you should have the choice, it's yourbaby you're killing. But, if you do abort it, I call that pro-death.
Evil pro-death freak checkin' in.
I have no problem with Abortion before certain development milestones because souls are entirely imaginary. If it ain't joined up upstairs yet, I really have no moral qualm whatsoever. My only slight objection was the possibility that abortion was more psychologically damaging for the woman than giving the child away for adoption, but given the idea of 'post-abortion syndrome' is a complete myth and reading some truly haunting stories of the consequences and depression felt by women who gave up their children for adoption (not that this is necessarily a universal reaction, but it seems odd given all the attention paid to the horror of having an abortion you rarely ever hear this side of it), this likewise isn't an issue for me anymore.
Incidently, my opinion wouldn't change on this even our ability to sustain life outside the womb significant dropped significantly below this development cut-off point. Most fertislied eggs (and that itself is a bit of a misnomer as by the time they reach the uturus they are blobs of dozens of cells) never attach to the uturus and get flushed out. If we hold that those little blobs are just as soul-containing and human as we are, then we'd really have to do something about this natural genocide and the obvious solution would be to have women collect and hand in their menstruation on the chance there's a little blob of cells with a soul floating round in there waiting to be saved. Sure it may seem a little extreme, but think of all the lives we'd be saving - you're not pro-death are you?
I have no problem with Abortion before certain development milestones because souls are entirely imaginary. If it ain't joined up upstairs yet, I really have no moral qualm whatsoever. My only slight objection was the possibility that abortion was more psychologically damaging for the woman than giving the child away for adoption, but given the idea of 'post-abortion syndrome' is a complete myth and reading some truly haunting stories of the consequences and depression felt by women who gave up their children for adoption (not that this is necessarily a universal reaction, but it seems odd given all the attention paid to the horror of having an abortion you rarely ever hear this side of it), this likewise isn't an issue for me anymore.
Incidently, my opinion wouldn't change on this even our ability to sustain life outside the womb significant dropped significantly below this development cut-off point. Most fertislied eggs (and that itself is a bit of a misnomer as by the time they reach the uturus they are blobs of dozens of cells) never attach to the uturus and get flushed out. If we hold that those little blobs are just as soul-containing and human as we are, then we'd really have to do something about this natural genocide and the obvious solution would be to have women collect and hand in their menstruation on the chance there's a little blob of cells with a soul floating round in there waiting to be saved. Sure it may seem a little extreme, but think of all the lives we'd be saving - you're not pro-death are you?
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Acting as you just did, it made me have my doubts about that final statement. There are ways to make a point without insulting others. I know you feel strongly about this, as do I, but heaping insults at people will not make them see their error. Just because you and I know abortion is wrong does not mean we can act impetuous.
Well, that's what I think as a 14-year-old kid. I know I'm young, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid
Here are a few Bible principles that bear on this matter:
"An answer, when mild, turns away rage, but a word causing pain makes anger to come up."-Proverbs 15:1
"Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt."-Colossians 4:6
"[Be] ready to make a defense before everyone that demands [it] of you...but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect."-1 Peter 3:15
You should never scream and yell when you feel someone else is in the wrong. It makes you seem ignorant and takes away credibility. People won't want to listen to you or take you seriously.
"This must be the end, then."-MorningLightMountain, Judas Unchained
- Jeesh_girl15
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Well, you are totally right, I did act out of place (as I always do). and I am really ignorant all the time (aren't we all at least a little?). But, i have to say that I am really good at heaping on the insults. Ask just about anyone. I should be a critic when i grow up! I get it from my daddy. You should hear him talk about Obama.I know you feel strongly about this, as do I, but heaping insults at people will not make them see their error. Just because you and I know abortion is wrong does not mean we can act impetuous.
Here are a few Bible principles that bear on this matter:
"An answer, when mild, turns away rage, but a word causing pain makes anger to come up."-Proverbs 15:1
"Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt."-Colossians 4:6
"[Be] ready to make a defense before everyone that demands [it] of you...but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect."-1 Peter 3:15
You should never scream and yell when you feel someone else is in the wrong. It makes you seem ignorant and takes away credibility. People won't want to listen to you or take you seriously.
I think I already knew the bible said that in the back of my head. How did you know the exact verse word for word? I bet it's one of the ones as my teacher says ,"Hide it in your heart. You'll need it someday." It's not like I can remember much more than "John 3:16." I suck at memorizing.
Thanks I guess. I think I just learned a serious moral lesson from someone i don't even know.
You musn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling.
Wow. It's hot on this thread. But I guess, if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen, neh?
I voted pro-life (ahh! don't hit me!), but I also know there're a lot of circumstances where pro-choice is the better answer. My point is, while pro-choice can be a good thing, I know that there are many who would take advantage of abortion. I'm talking about people who do anyone and everyone with no control, people who are irresponsible and neglegent, not those who would use abortion for a good purpose...
but then... what is a good purpose, and what is a bad one... hmm...
I voted pro-life (ahh! don't hit me!), but I also know there're a lot of circumstances where pro-choice is the better answer. My point is, while pro-choice can be a good thing, I know that there are many who would take advantage of abortion. I'm talking about people who do anyone and everyone with no control, people who are irresponsible and neglegent, not those who would use abortion for a good purpose...
but then... what is a good purpose, and what is a bad one... hmm...
I have voted pro-choice.
All I'm hearing about is stories of women who took abortion way tooo lightly and with a form of understanding like it were a contra-ceptive. Understanding and/or using it such is of course out of place. And of course there must be a fine number of people with such stances, somewhere.
But then on, I go and meet some of the fleshed women instead of those story ones, and what I see is psychological trauma of some kind, because the thing they resorted to still isn't something they would do were the circumstances different.
They just wouldn't 'take it back', because it was the way they got to the point where they're now, their back-then complicated situation would have no clear cuts. It's their own fight in the end, not of those that criticise them or their choice.
Btw., for abortion- because I think there should be a way to protect the health of a woman undergoing it, and if abortions either are or become illegal, there isn't really much space for health safe environment. I'd not like women dying out of badly performed surgeries, of infection, and the like. The procedure is damaging enough as it is, I don't think it should be even more damaging or, sadly, lethal.
I think there's a major difference between 'right' and 'needed'. I'd like people have option to do things that are 'needed', even if they are not completely 'right'.
All I'm hearing about is stories of women who took abortion way tooo lightly and with a form of understanding like it were a contra-ceptive. Understanding and/or using it such is of course out of place. And of course there must be a fine number of people with such stances, somewhere.
But then on, I go and meet some of the fleshed women instead of those story ones, and what I see is psychological trauma of some kind, because the thing they resorted to still isn't something they would do were the circumstances different.
They just wouldn't 'take it back', because it was the way they got to the point where they're now, their back-then complicated situation would have no clear cuts. It's their own fight in the end, not of those that criticise them or their choice.
Btw., for abortion- because I think there should be a way to protect the health of a woman undergoing it, and if abortions either are or become illegal, there isn't really much space for health safe environment. I'd not like women dying out of badly performed surgeries, of infection, and the like. The procedure is damaging enough as it is, I don't think it should be even more damaging or, sadly, lethal.
I think there's a major difference between 'right' and 'needed'. I'd like people have option to do things that are 'needed', even if they are not completely 'right'.
- Jeesh_girl15
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What a weird cowinky dink. The office in my house comes right off of the kitchen.Wow. It's hot on this thread. But I guess, if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen, neh?
I voted pro-life (ahh! don't hit me!)
Anyway, I wouldn't dream of hitting you. As everyone who actually read my posts know, I am totally pro-life.
Last edited by Jeesh_girl15 on Sat May 09, 2009 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You musn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling.
sigh... of course I read your posts. I make an effort to read all of them to make sure I don't sound redundant by repeating points already said.
Eskarina, I see what you're saying. By making abortion legal, you make sure that all abortions (or most at least) are done safely and by professionals. Or am I totally off?
Eskarina, I see what you're saying. By making abortion legal, you make sure that all abortions (or most at least) are done safely and by professionals. Or am I totally off?
^Peter, you're right on the spot.
My reasoning behind this may be coming from my experience of living in a country where abortions are legal [quite luckily] as opposed to being in close proximity to Poland where they're banned, and hearing the comparisons with said country quite often. I've pondered about this for a while and just think it's a safer way.
My reasoning behind this may be coming from my experience of living in a country where abortions are legal [quite luckily] as opposed to being in close proximity to Poland where they're banned, and hearing the comparisons with said country quite often. I've pondered about this for a while and just think it's a safer way.
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Ya know, now it sounds as if you actually care what people who you don't even know think. I can't believe you tried to read all my posts. I wasn't actually serious about that. You just had to scroll up the page.sigh... of course I read your posts. I make an effort to read all of them to make sure I don't sound redundant by repeating points already said.
You musn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling.
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Pro- Life
If a parent doesn't want a child, she should put the child up for adoption, or at least in an orphanage. What if YOUR parents decided that you would just be draining their money for 18 years and killed you? HMM? Would all you pro-choice ists be that way if you had been killed before you were even BORN?! well, you would obviously be dead, but just put yourself in the place of all those people who never got a shot at ANY kind of life just because their parents decided they would be a problem. If you think babies are a problem, refer to Johnathan Swift's A Modest proposal In it he discusses how, instead of getting abortions, people should just sell their babies as food and get money from it. Oh? That would be immoral? Unethical? Sick and disgusting? Really?! well maybe you should take a good, hard look at your own beliefs.
If a parent doesn't want a child, she should put the child up for adoption, or at least in an orphanage. What if YOUR parents decided that you would just be draining their money for 18 years and killed you? HMM? Would all you pro-choice ists be that way if you had been killed before you were even BORN?! well, you would obviously be dead, but just put yourself in the place of all those people who never got a shot at ANY kind of life just because their parents decided they would be a problem. If you think babies are a problem, refer to Johnathan Swift's A Modest proposal In it he discusses how, instead of getting abortions, people should just sell their babies as food and get money from it. Oh? That would be immoral? Unethical? Sick and disgusting? Really?! well maybe you should take a good, hard look at your own beliefs.
Under the spreading chesnut tree
I sold you and you sold me:
There they lie, and here lie we
Under the spreading chesnut tree.
I sold you and you sold me:
There they lie, and here lie we
Under the spreading chesnut tree.
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Ignoring the tone you're using, you already said it but it bears repeating: I wouldn't be alive to feel much about it either way. Just like the eggs my body disposes once a month aren't causing me to be all emo over lost potential; the fact that they're unfertilized does not make much difference to me at this point.What if YOUR parents decided that you would just be draining their money for 18 years and killed you?
I don't feel sorry for them. It's a literal case of them not knowing what they're missing. While they're not "enjoying" life, they're also not suffering from not being alive.put yourself in the place of all those people who never got a shot at ANY kind of life just because their parents decided they would be a problem
I don't much feel like arguing, though, so respond if you'd like but I'll be over here, entirely content with my own Pro-Choice belief that allows women to abort or give the child up for adoption or keep it. They have, ya know, a choice. And that is all this is about to me anyway: even if I could never personally abort a child (not sure on that but I've never been pregnant), I don't think it's fair of me to insist all the women of the world, in all their different circumstances, do what I would personally do. Especially given even one woman will likely not get pregnant under the same circumstances every time.
Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.
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I read it in high school. It was brilliant satire. But, as I said before, I'm not interested in arguing or even doing any discussion beyond what I've said. I won't change your mind -don't have any interest in trying- and you certainly won't change mine. Good day.
Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.
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This right here is why I refuse to discuss things with people like you; yes, people like you. The tone you started with before I posted a thing suggested you were incapable of entering into a discussion on this with an open mind and an intention of walking away with a better understanding of the other side's POV. That sort of attack on an entire population of people is uncalled for. And people aren't "pro-abortion."One bright side of all the Liberals being pro-abortion is that it cuts down on the numbers who would potentially believe the same.
Slightly edited:
[ETA: Choice To help with your comprehension.]Pro-Choice = belief that women can abort or give the child up for adoption or keep it.
What you said is a fallacy used by the ignorant to comfort themselves with their sense of righteousness.
One bright side of keeping an open mind is knowing that not all Pro-Lifers/Conservatives are like you.
Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.
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Why did you take offense? all those murdered babies NEVER EXISTED right? So what could be offensive in that to you? Im not, after all, insulting PEOPLE, im insulting the embryos which you so casually kill, which aren't, by your definition, people.
Under the spreading chesnut tree
I sold you and you sold me:
There they lie, and here lie we
Under the spreading chesnut tree.
I sold you and you sold me:
There they lie, and here lie we
Under the spreading chesnut tree.
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Actually, the insult was to the "Liberals" who are alive. "Pro-abortion" is somewhat loaded; you're calling them murderers (unjustifiably so, IMO, but you know this), which is certainly an insult in my books. You really oughtn't fling that word around so casually.
And who needs hate when you can ooze condescension?
Yes, yes, I have an issue walking away from inane statements but I'm doing it now.
ETA scare quotes around the word Liberals. Love how it sounds like a dirty word coming from you.
And who needs hate when you can ooze condescension?
Yes, yes, I have an issue walking away from inane statements but I'm doing it now.
ETA scare quotes around the word Liberals. Love how it sounds like a dirty word coming from you.
Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.
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My $0.02 on the issue - I don't think abortion should be legal. In my opinion, well, life begins when the egg is fertilized. Ok, miscarriages are legal, but not intentional abortion in my opinion. My main reason for this are two documents. First, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), which clearly states every human has the right to life. "Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life." Article 6.1. In the Declaration of Independence, it is said you have inalienable rights, and among them is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, as taken from the Preamble. By taking away a fertilized baby's life by intentional abortion, you deprive the baby of their life, and although an unborn baby can't make a decision, you took away their liberty and freedom by deciding to abort them. They would also never be able to pursue happiness - the last moment that they'd know is being sucked out of a womb forcibly, and although I don't know how the baby would react, my best guess would be a lot of pain and insured death. I'd presume it isn't a happy feeling. Anyway, thats my thoughts on the issue, and it's mostly my thoughts of elective abortions - ones other than a mother's health or fetal disease.
TG M203 Bunker, PFC, 1st Corps, CoD Division, PC Brigade, 1st BTN, Chungking (ST) Squad, SM
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I've had 102 nukes on MW2.
I have Asperger Syndrome (I was diagnosed at birth). It's categorized as a "disability".
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thank you sonikku.
I agree that in the case where a mother might die if the baby is born, abortion is a viable option. but like sonikku said: a right to the pursuit of happiness. not to mention life.
I agree that in the case where a mother might die if the baby is born, abortion is a viable option. but like sonikku said: a right to the pursuit of happiness. not to mention life.
Under the spreading chesnut tree
I sold you and you sold me:
There they lie, and here lie we
Under the spreading chesnut tree.
I sold you and you sold me:
There they lie, and here lie we
Under the spreading chesnut tree.
How can you kill that which has no life?
Its cells are alive, yeah. He has its own dna, but that's what a human being is? a chain of dna?
It's a human being in-construction. Same as a building isn't yet a building while youare building it, a phoetus isn't a human, the mother is constructing it. There is no brain, no thought, no synapsis in the first months. There is no human life at all in there. While the brain isn't working, there is no life there to be killed.
Its cells are alive, yeah. He has its own dna, but that's what a human being is? a chain of dna?
It's a human being in-construction. Same as a building isn't yet a building while youare building it, a phoetus isn't a human, the mother is constructing it. There is no brain, no thought, no synapsis in the first months. There is no human life at all in there. While the brain isn't working, there is no life there to be killed.
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yes, exactly. I get the whole argument of, "well this potential person doesn't know what he's missing out on, so it's OK, " but I think it is our moral responsibility to allow every unconceived embryo a chance at life. If the mom can't handle it, put it up for adoption.Its cells are alive, yeah. He has its own dna, but that's what a human being is? a chain of dna?
Incedentally, for all you pro-choicers out there who voted Democrat in this last election: Obama is FOR partial birth abortion, i.e. he is perfectly fine with killing the baby right after it's born. How's that for sick and unethical?
Under the spreading chesnut tree
I sold you and you sold me:
There they lie, and here lie we
Under the spreading chesnut tree.
I sold you and you sold me:
There they lie, and here lie we
Under the spreading chesnut tree.
Well, first, partial birth abortion is not an abortion method. Not in the way "i don't want to have a baby, i will get an abortion". As far as i know, it's a method for a therapeutical abortion where the birthing baby has no chance to survive the birth and/or there is severe risk for the mother's health.
Well, i have a higher concept of human beings than existing simply to satisfy our dna, the selfish gene. We are a lot more than machinery to reproduce our dna, even if that's how we came to be. What makes us human is our thought, our ability to be aware of our environment and of ourselves. The divine spark, so to speak, that lights up the synapsis of our outer cortex.
Well, i have a higher concept of human beings than existing simply to satisfy our dna, the selfish gene. We are a lot more than machinery to reproduce our dna, even if that's how we came to be. What makes us human is our thought, our ability to be aware of our environment and of ourselves. The divine spark, so to speak, that lights up the synapsis of our outer cortex.
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