Bean

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Bean

Postby Mega » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:01 am

I am just wondering, do any of you think that Bean could survive 3000 years on a relativistic journey, even though he only had about 6 months before he had to go null-g. I really hope so seeing as he is my favorite character in the series, but it seems highly unlikely. Any thoughts?
if this has been done before I did not see it

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Postby neo-dragon » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:32 pm

It's certainly possible that he could still be alive. Ender and Val aged about 10 years during that amount of time, but they stopped for months at a time on various planets. Bean's subjective time would be much shorter if he remained at relativistic speed as much as possible. Also, I don't think that anyone made a solid estimate on how long Bean could live once the strain on his heart was eased by the lack of gravity, so if OSC wants him to still be alive I don't think that it'd be a huge stretch.
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Postby locke » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:00 pm

am I the only one that thinks he would die quicker in null g? due to the atrophy of his muscles, including his heart, as his heart muscles grows weaker while he grows bigger he dies faster, right? Perhaps if they amputated his legs he'd live longer?
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby neo-dragon » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:57 pm

I'm no cardiologist but the theory is that since he was going to die from his heart giving out from the stress of having to pump blood throughout his massive body, a zero-g environment would extend his life by greatly reducing the work required to transport blood. The null-g just compensates for the extra work that comes with a massive body, so his heart should be doing something close to a normal amount of work, not too much or too little.
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Postby Mega » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:01 am

if I am not mistaken Graff mentioned near the end of SotG that Bean had about 6 months before he had to be placed in null-g, so I said 6 months as an estimate not a definite.
Also if that were the case Locke why would (can't remember his name) suggest that to be the only way he could survive. I mean he did mention that a few years after that was originally set up, there would have to be a few amputations here or there, but all in all null-g would prolong Bean's life, but no one of Bean's type would ever take such a horrifying option.
So anyone think that in the 3000 years a cure would be devised, or do you think they would have to make another prolonged out space journey.

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3000 Years = A butt-load of time.

Postby nigel%rodolfo@hegemon.gov » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:19 pm

Just a quick note, if Bean never stops growing, even if his heart could pump all the needed blood, he would soon become too big to fit through most regular spaceship doorways, thus having to stay in the biggest room of the spaceship, until that became too small for him too. And as soon as he hit gravity, that would most likely than anything else, kill him, because of the strain on his heart. I know they might be able to make larger rooms in the spaceship, but it would be better, if possible, for them to somehow give him some sort of plastic surgery to make his body smaller.

Anyway, 3000 years will most likely yield a cure, theorizing that a new generation is born every single year, so 3000 generations of scientists, and maybe only 10 of them per ten generations work on this, so at least 300 scientist get to work on this. Though, truth be told, I doubt a cure can be found for Bean now, his body being so large. But if they mutate all of his kids' DNA to get rid of Anton's key, well, that would probably be all they have to find out how to do to cure them.

And one more note on Bean's size. I'm not sure, but if he got extremely large could his body stop producing enough blood to pump through his veins at some point, since on average people have 5 pints of blood. But then again, maybe it's different, since extremely wide people are fine. Are they, blood-wise? Not counting fats of course.

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Postby Mega » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:25 am

as I said, when he gets too large, amputations are possible so that would help with the space issue, besides he wouldn't be moving around, he would be strapped down. I believe that your body is constantly making new blood so that wouldn't be a problem and with the amputations, that would help even if your body doesn't create more and more blood as the need presents itself.

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Re: Mega

Postby nigel%rodolfo@hegemon.gov » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:10 pm

as I said, when he gets too large, amputations are possible so that would help with the space issue, besides he wouldn't be moving around, he would be strapped down. I believe that your body is constantly making new blood so that wouldn't be a problem and with the amputations, that would help even if your body doesn't create more and more blood as the need presents itself.
Ah, but not having limbs isn't very fun, so I'd edge more for some sort of surgery that could make him smaller, though I can't see how it wouldn't be astoundingly difficult cutting him up, and I'm not sure Bean'd agree to having his brain cut down, which would also probably cause some brain damage.

Why should he be strapped down? It'd be infinites better to have freedom of mobility. Not that he definitely needs it, but good exercise could help strengthen his body so he can live somewhat easier and maybe even longer through his "growing pains".

And a new idea, steroids. Strengthen him it will, though no chance of him surviving without serious side effects.

And the idea which might, could have prevented Bean's predicament. They could have stopped him from growing. Here's an example of what they did to one person:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 51,00.html

Of course, it would probably mean he'd become addicted to all the continually needed treatments to not grow too much. But there could be other factors. Anyone can spot them? Add in to the discussion.

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Postby locke » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:31 pm

but here's my question. do all muscles atrophy in zero gravity? both smooth muscles and skeleton muscles? basically is organ function impaired by zero g? in other words bean's heart is getting weaker in zero g. and if he's growing bigger and his heart is getting weaker then he dies faster.

i suppose Card can use bugger gravity to provide a weak grav pull to stave off muscular atrophy. In fact I imagine they have to have gravity on the ship for the sake of the babies.

Where is steve when you need him? :P
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby neo-dragon » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:58 am

But as I said above, the basis of atrophy is a muscle not having to work hard. The whole point of Bean living is zero-g is because the sheer size of his body makes his heart have to work too hard under normal gravity. The two factors are meant to cancel each other out so that his heart does a healthy amount of work.

But yeah, I imagine that there's some degree of gravity manipulation on the ship because the kids couldn't possibly develop properly in zero-g. Their bone and muscle structure as well as their circulation would be screwed up, and they'd never be able to live on a human world. They'd probably also grow even faster than Bean did on Earth.
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Postby locke » Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:25 am

But as I said above, the basis of atrophy is a muscle not having to work hard. The whole point of Bean living is zero-g is because the sheer size of his body makes his heart have to work too hard under normal gravity. The two factors are meant to cancel each other out so that his heart does a healthy amount of work.
yeah I understand the counter argument, but it doesn't sound quite right to me. :p
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Mega » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:00 pm

in the case of the girl that was normal growth they were talking about, so Bean's situation is completely different and I don't think any amount of hormones would slow the process of his growth. I never said amputating brain parts, just body parts. Also, I believe the ship they are on now, is not null-g. I think it is like the ones Ender used to travel from planets, complete with gravity. I mean there could be areas where there would be null, but not the entire ship. Imagine if it was, how could the people ever expect the little kids to walk, you know, they would lose the whole muscle memory thing.

Also, the situation where he was strapped down, was where he was placed in an area in space, like the Battle Room, and he would be strapped down, and when needed he would have limbs amputated, until he was nothing more then brain and heart, or something like that, don't remember the exacts. I never said Bean would like it.

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Postby Bean_wannabe » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:34 pm

As far as I understand, muscle atrophy is caused by your muscles not having to do so much work in zero- or lesser-gravity. This causes them to become weaker as they are not worked as hard - the opposite of weight training.

Because the heart is working all the time, it is never affected by muscle atrophy. Otherwise, our astronauts would have huge problems when they returned form the ISS, for instance.

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Postby akrolsmir » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:30 pm

You guys arent' taking into account the fact that they have to eat. Bean couldn't remain on the ship for long, because of supply issues, since he would have to consume more to continue growing. and growing. and growing...
not to mention that the children would probably eat a lot too
which means that eventually, they would have to restock, and then bean would die due to gravity.
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Postby nigel%rodolfo@hegemon.gov » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:49 pm

in the case of the girl that was normal growth they were talking about, so Bean's situation is completely different and I don't think any amount of hormones would slow the process of his growth.
Hmm, though growth hormones are needed to grow, and if said growth hormones could be removed, such as by removing the pituitary gland, growth could be stopped, though not without side effects. Here's an article on actually helping stop, though not cure gigantism, as far as I understood in my quick reading.

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec13/ch162/ch162e.html

Quick note, I would suppose his growth plates have never closed, which is why he can grow endlessly without suffering from Acromegaly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acromegaly

And another, if that was it, why can't Bean be cured? Surely I'm missing something, I can't remember what, and I can't check Shadow of the Giant, or whichever it explained it better, at this moment. There must be some underlying cause though, or at least I hope. It'd be as if in the Enderverse the treatment just didn't exist, despite being more than a thousand years into the future.
I never said amputating brain parts, just body parts.
Ah, no, that was part of my argument for making Bean's body smaller through amputations of all his body parts, but if he kept his large brain without shrinking it he'd have a tremendously sized head like those you would see in cartoons with evil geniuses, but even bigger.
I never said Bean would like it.
Quite sure I didn't say you did, just a thought I added in.
You guys arent' taking into account the fact that they have to eat. Bean couldn't remain on the ship for long, because of supply issues, since he would have to consume more to continue growing. and growing. and growing...
not to mention that the children would probably eat a lot too
which means that eventually, they would have to restock, and then bean would die due to gravity.
I don't remember exactly how they do restock ships, though you do bring up a tremendously crucial point. I imagine they could get a supply ship to align trajectories with Bean's ship, though that must be tremendously difficult in light-speed. Maybe they can teleport food over in the future? Another idea would be to take any smaller ships on their ship and launch it off to get food, then have it gain light-speed again and catch up with them.

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Postby locke » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:16 am

And another, if that was it, why can't Bean be cured? Surely I'm missing something, I can't remember what, and I can't check Shadow of the Giant, or whichever it explained it better, at this moment. There must be some underlying cause though, or at least I hope. It'd be as if in the Enderverse the treatment just didn't exist, despite being more than a thousand years into the future.
if card's not aware of the treatment then you're not missing anything. or he is aware of the treatment and becuase it doesn't fit with the thematic/metaphorical intent he had in mind he's happily ignoring it in his universe.

And it's more akin to a couple hundred years (if that) in the future.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Bean_wannabe » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:29 am

I don't remember exactly how they do restock ships, though you do bring up a tremendously crucial point. I imagine they could get a supply ship to align trajectories with Bean's ship, though that must be tremendously difficult in light-speed. Maybe they can teleport food over in the future? Another idea would be to take any smaller ships on their ship and launch it off to get food, then have it gain light-speed again and catch up with them.
Wouldn't work, as it would require ansibe communication to 'order' the food, and as mentioned in the later Ender books that is very difficult. Also, no ship could 'catch up' as nothing can o faster than these 'messenger ships' anyway

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Postby neo-dragon » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:51 pm

I guess we don't really know how much preserved food the ship could carry.

As for why they didn't remove Bean's growth hormones, all I can say is that the first lines of the acknowledgments in SotG read:
Thanks to Joan Han, M.D., who works in pediatric endocrinology ... for advice on what kinds of legitimate therapy might be tried to stop Bean's unstoppable growth. Along the same lines, M. Jack Long, M.D. brought up the ideas that became Volescu's suggestions for how Bean might live a long life.
So it seems that Card did consult experts in the field, which suggests that either that treatment wouldn't work for some reason, or it would work but Card ignored it so as not to ruin the story, or he consulted pretty lousy experts. :P
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Smeg-up.

Postby nigel%rodolfo@hegemon.gov » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:22 am

So it seems that Card did consult experts in the field, which suggests that either that treatment wouldn't work for some reason, or it would work but Card ignored it so as not to ruin the story, or he consulted pretty lousy experts. :P
Ahaha, I supposed that for a few moments myself. But I finally managed to get my hands on a copy of the book again, and here is the reason:
" Re: Prognosis
Dear Julian,

I wish I had better news.
But yesterday's tests are conclusive. Estrogen therapy has had no effect on the epiphyses. They remain open,
even though you definitely do not have any defect in the estrogen receptors on the growth plates of your
bones. "
So he did gather enough information so no existing, or rather easily google-able, treatment could be found for Bean's condition.

The growth plates are all part of Bean's skeleton, so there's no easy way of removing all of that, is there? Unless, on of either two following things. One, chemotherapy. Not very pleasant treatment though, but it could damage his growth plates, at least temporarily, as far as I know with my limited knowledge. Or two, they could beat every inch of his bones until all the growth plates are damaged beyond healing, or at least enough to take a long period of time to heal. Not the best option either, or at all.
But the history of genetic research is fairly
consistent. It takes time to map and isolate an unusual sequence and then perform animal experiments in order
to determine what each portion of it does and how to counteract its effects. There is no way to expedite such
research. If we had ten thousand working on the problem, they would perform the same experiments in the
same order and it would take the same amount of time. Someday we will understand why your astonishing
intellect is so incurably linked with uncontrolled growth.
Explains why it would take so long to actual get anywhere with their research.
If only cryogenics had not proven to be such a barren field.
Sucks, it does.

Anybody have further theories on why this could be happening, join in.

We need ideas, we need to solve this. If not because I've still got 1/2 a week of vacation left and need to fill up the time.

Can we get a biochemist in here?

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Postby nigel%rodolfo@hegemon.gov » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:24 pm

I don't remember exactly how they do restock ships, though you do bring up a tremendously crucial point. I imagine they could get a supply ship to align trajectories with Bean's ship, though that must be tremendously difficult in light-speed. Maybe they can teleport food over in the future? Another idea would be to take any smaller ships on their ship and launch it off to get food, then have it gain light-speed again and catch up with them.
Wouldn't work, as it would require ansibe communication to 'order' the food, and as mentioned in the later Ender books that is very difficult. Also, no ship could 'catch up' as nothing can o faster than these 'messenger ships' anyway
Wait, this is an easy one to solve. Slow down the ship, being in space there would be no gravity to hurt Bean, and then just get a messenger ships to meet them and help restock. They only technically lose a few months(?), though to them only a day, of near lightspeed.

Surprised I didnt think of that one before.

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Postby antronics » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:33 pm

..My problem with the whole Anton's key thing is this: Bean never stops growing. Fine. He will eventually be a giant. Fine. But why wouldn't his heart continue to grow as well and match Bean's size?

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Postby Person122 » Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:26 pm

Since the introduction of the "Stasis" in Ender in Exile, couldn't Bean and co. just go into stasis for the duration of the flight? People in Stasis wouldn't age (at least not that much) according to Ender in Exile. And since Bean's departure to space happens chronologically after Ender's flight to Shakespeare, they could have put Bean and co. into Stasis during the flight.

On another note, one of my friends recently told me about some way people discovered to slow down the growth of cells (or something like that). This would hypothetically mean that cancer would slow down and so would giantism. Does anyone know exactly what this is about?
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Postby Tcashon » Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:16 pm

Here's an interesting thought...

If Jane can move ships to anywhere in the universe (supposedly) without dealing with space time then technically she can send a ship to meet Bean (assuming Jane got some information somehow) and avoid the whole relativity thing (I'm assuming that Bean sets out on his voyage some 5 to 10 years after Ender)

If Jane could contact Bean somehow, she could learn of his condition, and Ela might be able to create a version of the truncated descolada in order to "turn" Anton's Key again, hence stopping, and maybe possibly reversing some of the growth process.

Jane would then be able to transport a ship instantaneously to meet Bean (Bean would have to slow/stop down of course) and then new anti-anton virus could then be administered.

Although, I don't know if you would want to administer it to Bean's children at such a young age before they have a chance to use the gifts their father has given them.

Thoughts? I know I've probably overlooked a lot of glaring fallacies.
Yeah I got a response............er..WHAT?

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Postby CreoleBeanFan » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:36 pm

Since the introduction of the "Stasis" in Ender in Exile, couldn't Bean and co. just go into stasis for the duration of the flight? People in Stasis wouldn't age (at least not that much) according to Ender in Exile. And since Bean's departure to space happens chronologically after Ender's flight to Shakespeare, they could have put Bean and co. into Stasis during the flight.
I had the same thoughts after reading EiE

On another note, one of my friends recently told me about some way people discovered to slow down the growth of cells (or something like that). This would hypothetically mean that cancer would slow down and so would giantism. Does anyone know exactly what this is about?[/quote]

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Postby Jebus » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:20 pm

Ah, reliable "friend" cites work by "people", I eagerly await the end of cancer now (and the ever-concerning giantism).

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Postby Valentine » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:22 pm

Ah, Paul, just when I thought your humor had gone downhill, you prove me wrong. Kudos, I've enjoyed your posts today.

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Postby Jebus » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:31 pm

Pssht, I don't need your validation...


Oh thank god praise, it's been so long, I've missed you. Who's a good compliment? You are! Yes you are! C'mere I'm gonna bathe in you, you lovely little ball of feel-goodness!

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Postby Wiggin. E » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:53 pm

You guys keep talking about amputations and possibly keeping Bean alive long enough for him to come into play in Shadows of Flight. But OSC wont enter him into the book as an amputated vegetable who cant move and is too big to fit into a spaceship. What use is there to that other than excite fans with news of his return? OSC doesnt work like that. He will tell the story realisticly. And would Bean really want to survive strapped to a board for years? Either: 1. Bean does enter Shadows in Flight as a vegetable, but only because his intellingence is needed, or there is a cure for him to bring him back to normal 2. (more likely) Beans kids play a role in Shadows in Flight 3. (most likely) since the shadow series supposedly connect with the Ender saga, there is only mention of him, or they discover his empty ship.

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Postby theinvid » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:09 pm

descolada....sentient virus....changes life forms on a genetic level.
Um...the cure is going to be the descolada in some variant form. The question is...will it be Bean's cure or just his children because Bean is dead?

There are plenty examples of incontinuity in the Enderverse...why not one more?
Bean's ship has a stasis chamber? Afterall, the technology was already in existence when Bean took flight....it just wasn't mentioned in the shadow series.

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Postby nigel%rodolfo@hegemon.gov » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:08 pm

Since the introduction of the "Stasis" in Ender in Exile, couldn't Bean and co. just go into stasis for the duration of the flight? People in Stasis wouldn't age (at least not that much) according to Ender in Exile. And since Bean's departure to space happens chronologically after Ender's flight to Shakespeare, they could have put Bean and co. into Stasis during the flight.
That's a point to really take into consideration. If an excuse doesn't exist, or even if it does, it may possibly because of Bean's failing heart. How stasis works in the Enderverse was never fully explained(far as I remember, if I'm wrong someone please correct me); but I think someone says that it's like your body dies, with only a faint glimmer to bring you back. So my guess is that stasis slows the body down tremendously, and if your body is not in good condition, it may have troublespeeding back up and coming out of stasis, and if that happens you basically die. So Bean may have not wanted to take such a risk for nothing, especially when he has his children to look after. And so he decided to stay awake for the journey.

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Postby Person122 » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:56 pm

You guys keep talking about amputations and possibly keeping Bean alive long enough for him to come into play in Shadows of Flight. But OSC wont enter him into the book as an amputated vegetable who cant move and is too big to fit into a spaceship. What use is there to that other than excite fans with news of his return? OSC doesnt work like that. He will tell the story realisticly. And would Bean really want to survive strapped to a board for years? Either: 1. Bean does enter Shadows in Flight as a vegetable, but only because his intellingence is needed, or there is a cure for him to bring him back to normal 2. (more likely) Beans kids play a role in Shadows in Flight 3. (most likely) since the shadow series supposedly connect with the Ender saga, there is only mention of him, or they discover his empty ship.
Firstly If Bean were a vegetable, wouldn't that mean that he would have severe brain damage and probably wouldn't be able to think or communicate normally? Secondly, this is something "Uncle Orson" said in a "Barnes and Noble's Book Clubs December Featurette" that happened in conjunction with the release of Ender in Exile
When I proposed Ender in Exile to my publisher, I also proposed Shadows in Flight. The first chapter is "The Death of Bean," and the rest of the book follows his children AND the "new-Peter" and "new-Valentine" and Si Wang Mu and others from Children of the Mind. It's a direct sequel, in other words, to both Shadow of the Giant and Children of the Mind. Wish me luck when it's time to write THAT one.

Happy ending? Bean dies - but everybody dies. Bean dies knowing his children will survive - not every parent gets THAT. So in my mind, it's a happy ending full of accomplishment. Nobody gets out of this world alive ...
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Postby tombo125 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:51 am

Bean cannot go into stasis because he has to pilot the ship. He comments that he hopes he doesnt die before he can teach the kids how to pilot the ship, which indicates he was going to be the pilot.

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Postby lyons24000 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:05 pm

"Bean Dies"-Orson Scott Card

That's a little out of character for OSC to reveal anything prematurely, isn't it?
"This must be the end, then."-MorningLightMountain, Judas Unchained

theevilpplz
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Hello

Postby theevilpplz » Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:27 pm

Hi, first post, greetings etc. etc.

I thought of a crazy theory, that Ender's future wife [what's-her-name] is a descendant of Bean? That could be possible.
All your gnomes are belong to us

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locke
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Postby locke » Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:49 pm

hmm, an interesting and plausible theory. But Novinha being a Bean descendent would strike me as especially trite. :-p
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.


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