Time Travel???(spoilers)

[wigginboy]

In the Speaker Series, it mentions frequently that when traveling through space, the ship is at near-relativistic speeds. It goes on to say that when traveling at such speeds, great amounts of time in the real world are going by. Could this mean that going near relativistic speeds turns the ship into a sort of time machine? After all, Ender and Val travel from world to worl, leaving beind three thousand years of human history, only skipping like a stone over the ripples of time. They age very slowly, while the universe ages quickly. Would this be a sort of time dilation?

As well, a thought I had just now, if we were to abolish the light speed limit, as Jane does by taking ships outside and back in at different places, could we also go through time as well as space? Im not sure how the dynamics would work, I'm by no means a physicist, but from what I have read, if you go faster than light, you are essentially going faster than time can catch up with, and you can arrive at any given time in history. Jane's travel is instantaneous, meaning that she is moving vehicles faster than the speed of light. So, would it be possible, say when the ship is outside, to whisk the ship off to a different time as well as place?

Just a thought I had rereading Children so I thought I'd ask.

[Oliver Dale]

Your chair is a time-machine, by the same reasoning. It is carrying you forward in time. To answer you succinctly, yes, you're correct. Relativistic speeds cause time dilation, as experienced by Ender and Val (and a bunch of other people).

As for Outside, you have to approach it fairly loosely. It is, quite clearly, a violation of known physics (energy conservation -- even from a quantum foam perspective -- not to mention many others).

[Yebra]

I don't think so, Jane's method doesn't break the speed of light, it just moves objects from one place to another. As light speed isn't broken, no time travel can occur.

[eriador]

Yes, the idea of Jane taking them "outside" then back "in" would mean that she could set them down at any point in time, but you'd have to watch out for the grandfather paradox, or any other sort of time-travel contradiction. So to keep things simple Jane doesn't do time travel.

The weird thing is that if Jane were to bring Ender someplace, he could theoretically see himself, which means that he traveled time anyway. Weird.

[Boothby]

It's called a fictional conceit, fellas.

It's not really a "scientific" concept.

If one could somehow move outside "space and time", then time travel would have to be possible. If it wasn't, then you really wouldn't be outside of space and time, now would you? (said in my best John Cleese voice...)

[neo-dragon]

I don't think that Jane can move people through time. Being able to move anywhere in space doesn't necessarily mean you can do the same thing through time. Jane takes people and objects outside of physical space and puts them back anywhere she chooses instantaneously. I don't see how this ability suggests that she can place them back in time or in the future.

[eriador]

space and time are synonomous. one can't be outside of space but still in time, one has to be entirely removed from all of spacetime.

[neo-dragon]

That's rather theoretical, isn't it?

[suminonA]

From the first post:

[…] So, would it be possible, say when the ship is outside, to whisk the ship off to a different time as well as place?

Well, it depends on what context do you give to the question.

If we’re talking science-fiction per se, then YES, it is possible. For example:
“And Jane took the small ship and its occupants outside of space, and then took it inside again, some 173 years later.”
If I can write it, it is possible. That’s the beauty of fiction.

If you’re talking OSC science-fiction, you’d have to ask him.

If we’re talking science, then we’d have to define first what “outside” means and specify its properties. Based on that we can determine what is possible and what isn’t.

---

Speculating on the “dynamics” of time-travel is for now pure since fiction. If one wants to keep a Universe - that allows time travel - coherent we need to accept multiple (and divergent) timelines. Something like: “at each moment all possible occurrences occur (as in “all free choices”), in different (and divergent) timelines.”
Therefore, one cannot “rewrite history” by going back in time because all possible versions of it are already written. One can “jump from one version to another” because there is (at least) one version where the “jump” occurs.

Take the movie “Back to the Future” (and sequels) for example. There the characters are “fading out” (from the feet up!) as the possibility of a divergent time line occurring is increasing. It’s one (hilarious) way of putting it.

A.

[Oliver Dale]

That's rather theoretical, isn't it?

No, not strictly. Space and time are often regarded as two facets of the same thing.

[eriador]

if it weren't for the unity of space-time, I don't think that reletivity would even work... maybe.

so they have been shown to be the same.


i think

[Bean_wannabe]

Jane does take them outside time, but when they go back inside they appear back at the same time as they left plus however long they spent outside. When they went on the first voyage and stayed Outside for a while there was a gap before they reappeared - otherwise no-one would notice they had gone.

Complicated.

[eriador]

Exactly... It seems to me that Jane obeys the idea of "time" out of convenience. I'm guessing that she could just as easily make those in the capsule travel through time (though a capsule isn't necessary, come to think of it)

[thatguy1944]

The way i percieved the whole "jane.outside.in" thing was that she didn't do anything with time travel at all...
I just thought that she was moving objects through space.
Because "outside" was a different plane of reality time traveled differently as opposed to our "in". basically all that jane was doing was taking you out of your front door and bringing you back in through the back door to a spot five feet away from where you originally were... But she was just doing all of that really fast. Because shes hypersmart she is able to hold your physical info in her head and then spit you back out (intact mind you) when you came back out

[Bean_wannabe]

The way I interpreted it, Jane also took the idea of time outside with all the physicall stuff, so that there was duration Outside. I believe it says something like that if the experiment failed they would not know anything about it because they would be perpetually frozen in time Outside.

[IcedFalcon]

Im no expert but conventional reality says that space and time are linked. You cant break them only bend them. No matter can skip over time because its finite and the same quantity must exist at all times. You could move infinately fast and avoid relativity but would still be bound by that law.

[Janus%TheDoorman]

Welcome to PWeb, Falcon.

Also... though I'm not certain, I think your assertion is wrong. I don't think space/time is one of the conserved quantities of the universe, or else how could we explain either post Big Bang, or even the current expansion of the universe?

[IcedFalcon]

Thanks for the welcome.
Theoretics aside space is mostly empty save for stars etc. All matter today was once compressed to a singularity like in a huge black hole.
After the big bang matter expands apart indefinately until the pressures of TBB are opposed to a degree that the laws of physics break down and everything is pulled apart in the big rip.

[Janus%TheDoorman]

No, actually, Stars, Planets, etc. account for roughly 3% of the Matter/Energy in the universe. The rest is roughly 30% Dark Matter, and 70% Dark Energy. DE is particularly of interest to us because it appears to exhibit "negative gravity" and is believed to be the cause of the universe's current expansion. We currently rather obviously exist in a DE-dominated universe, and the Big Rip theory you mention is only feasible if this particular epoch continues, unchecked, all the matter/energy of the universe is DE and the universe is forced apart.

Since we really don't know much about DE at all, it's impossible to say how it will decay/metamorph over time, and, on a cosmic scale, the DE-domination is relatively recent. The Big Rip is only possible if there is no further change in the overall composition of the Matter/Energy density in the universe, and as such, it's a bit like saying Global Warming will absolutely, beyond all forces short of divine intervention, cause the mass flooding of the Earth based on the fact that it's hotter today than it was yesterday.

There's a lot more far-reaching research to be done before we can assert how the universe will end.

Honestly, though, this is all off the top of my head stuff, with a bit of help from Wikipedia.

Lemme crack open A Brief History of Time and my Modern Physics textbook, and I'll get back to you.

[IcedFalcon]

Getting back to my point that dark or not there is no system that is creating ndw matter in the Universe so it is still finite. I have yet to see a viable theory that would let matter move backward through time without breaking said law.

[CaseyJones]

The known universe is expanding, that is a fact. So in theory, there IS a "nothing" point, I.E. if you were to travel past the edge of the universe, it has not expanded to that distance, so what is there? It is inconceivable to think about something like that. Dark Matter and energy is a totally new theory and concept. While it is true that said "Dark matter" accounts for a large percentage of matter in the universe, it is not a question of if it is actually there or not, but more of a question of what it is. Theoretically, dark energy and matter occured before physical matter after the big bang, when all of the natural forces broke apart and began to expand. Both types of matter fought each other, as it were, and this opisition accounted for the formation of the first atoms, hydrogen, helium, and carbon. All of this eventually turns into the current universe. Back to the point, it is impossible to move back in time. While it could be possible to move forward in time, you are not really moving time, you are experiencing time at a slower rate, which accounts for the differential in periods causing the sensation of moving forward in time. Black holes are strange beasts. Again theoretically, if you were to watch a ship fly into a black hole, the ship would appear to stand still in time. This is not because the ship is speeding up, but because less and less visible light is able to escape the extreme gravitational pull as the ship enters the threshold. The ship would eventually just dissappear as it is compressed into an infinitly small point and light can no longer escape. Anyway, it is hard to put all this into something that the average joe can understand. I could go on for pages about the this and the big bang, though.

[starfox]

The known universe is expanding, that is a fact. So in theory, there IS a "nothing" point, I.E. if you were to travel past the edge of the universe, it has not expanded to that distance, so what is there? It is inconceivable to think about something like that.

This is a somewhat common misconception. There really is no "edge". Source. And therefore nothing past it.

Dark Matter and energy is a totally new theory and concept.

Not really. Its existence was postulated at least as early as 1937.

Theoretically, dark energy and matter occured before physical matter after the big bang, when all of the natural forces broke apart and began to expand. Both types of matter fought each other, as it were, and this opisition accounted for the formation of the first atoms, hydrogen, helium, and carbon.

I'm not really sure about this. Do you have a source? And I think you mean lithium instead of carbon.

[CaseyJones]

You are correct, starfox, carbon was not one of the primordial elements. I have no Idea what I was thinking. Thanks for catching that.
Hydrogen was the most abundant element in the infant universe. The rest are, helium, lithum, and other various forms of these elements.

This is a somewhat common misconception. There really is no "edge". Source. And therefore nothing past it.

That was not a misconception, What I stated is a basic form of the article you sourced. It would be impossible to actually find out exactly how big the known universe is, let alone travel there, but there IS an "edge", for lack of a better word. There has to be a point where the universe has not expanded to. But that really is what I stated in my previous post. There is "nothing" at that point.

The idea of dark energy/matter has been around for many years, but we are just aquiring the technology to make a more in-depth hypothesis.

[LeftiesWillRule]

its not just moving objects, when she removes the ship from space and puts it back in, the are traversing distance, but they are not traveling. the instantaneous travel (i know i said they aren't traveling but i can't find a better word) moves them but they are removed from real space so there for they are removed from time. their consiousness detects time passing, but since time is nonexistent, it really isn't happening but it will have happened once they enter realtime. the objects hapening in outspace gets queued up and all of it happens instantly when the enter the universe again. the instantaneous-ity of the movement makes means that no time passed during their abscence, which is to nonexistent, which also means that they could not have traveled through time. the fact that it is pulling it out of space and putting it back in at another point means that it did not travel through space at all, also meaning that it didn't travel through time, and since time really isn't existent (wait but if it is it has to be in a different plane of existence, the timelines don't cross or else the anomaly of the relative collision would probably cause a cataclysmic destruction and creation of all matter in the universe and possibly other existent universes) in outspace they have not traveled through time. the lack of time in outspace makes it so that the time they felt is not related to realtime.

also since the time is relative, the time would pass for them in outspace... so technically they could age in outspace... but there is also the possibility of time going backward in outspace, or in another universe, time could travel backward. which means that subjectively for each individual aboard the ship, they can go forward or backward in time in the separate universes without and time passing in the enderverse...
any ideas anyone?

[wigginboy]

So Lefty, by your logic, if time and space do not affect an object that Jane moves, it is not really moving at all. It is much like the transporters in Star Trek, except that they work by breaking materials down into constituent particles and Jane works by moving the objects herself. But if the objects are not affected by time or distance as you have said, do the objects even exist in the first place? Perhaps when Jane takes them outside, they cease to exist and when she brings them back in, they are reassembled in their previous configuration.

Now, here is another one. If time does not work the same in Outspace, would it be possible to bring a person or object to a different time if enough time was spent in Outspace? Say, if Jane brought a ship out, waited five minutes instead of a fraction of a second and brought it back in, would time be different from when the ship left? Is time in Outspace relative to time in Inspace or does it work totally different? You bring up some very good points that only I can speculate about as my brain does not comprehend physics like many peoples'.

[Bean_wannabe]

I think time Outside corresponds to time Inside, as in the first 'flight' when the recolada was created both the people on the ship and the people waiting Inside for it to return experienced a time delay.

Drat my stupidly long sentences

[LeftiesWillRule]

that could be possible wigginboy, but, i think that time would not be different in Inspace. However, i said that subjectively, the time would change, the people inside the ship or even the ship itself would have aspects of its time change. maybe if Jane waited, the people inside would rapidly age, or shrink back to embryo form. time wouldn't change for people in inspace, but it would for anybody in outspce

[starfox]

That was not a misconception, What I stated is a basic form of the article you sourced. It would be impossible to actually find out exactly how big the known universe is, let alone travel there, but there IS an "edge", for lack of a better word. There has to be a point where the universe has not expanded to. But that really is what I stated in my previous post. There is "nothing" at that point.

No, really. There is no edge. Show me the edge of a sphere.

There doesn't "have" to be a point which the universe has not expanded into yet. See the last paragraph.