Cheating...

[Gravity Defier]

Mostly unrelated, but I was thinking about this thread and then thought about cyber sex (as it is related to phone sex), only I couldn't remember what cyber sex was called because I just hadn't thought of that topic in so long.

I was going to ask something along the lines of, "what do you call the sex over IMs?" I feel so old and out of it, sometimes. [/story]



Oh, and Jason, one would hope that a person could make it a day or two without having sex if in a relationship before their mind wanders to cheating; I know of no frustrations that can't be held out on if it would in any way comfort the S.O.

How big a deal is it really to not masturbate if your partner has issues with it? In the meantime, I'm thinking that the person who has a problem with it should try to be understanding of needs.

[neo-dragon]

I didn't really mean to suggest that refraining from masturbation would cause an otherwise faithful individual to consider cheating.

But really, what it comes down to is this: who has the right to tell me (I'm using "me" in the general and hypothetical sense) that I can't do something perfectly harmless and natural with my own body? When you think about it, it's tantamount to saying that she has more authority over my body (or at least one part of it) than I do. How reasonable would it sound if I insisted that my (hypothetical) girlfriend not wear make-up when she goes out because she shouldn't need to look pretty for anyone but me? I'm all for making concessions and compromises for the one you love, but I also think that if they love you they shouldn't ask you to give up something personal just because it bruises their fragile ego. It's just the principle of it...

[zeroguy]

You don't watch videos of people spending lottery-won money, though, nor do you stare at pictures of money (well, maybe some people do?).

No? Around here big lottery winners are publicized showing how excited they are to recieve their oversized cheques, and there are often ads showing people buying rediculous cars or walking out on their jobs etc. as a promotion to get people to buy tickets. No, it's not with "intent" the way pornography is, but lottery winning was just being used as an example to illustrate a point.

Yeah, okay. Sometimes I forget that I'm not representative of the mass media audience.

How big a deal is it really to not masturbate if your partner has issues with it?

If they'd be willing to have sex up to multiple times a day, I don't think it'd be a problem.

[Wil]

Maybe it's just something I've always thought to be true... but you really have no control over oneself if such low animal desires are beyond your grasp. It is not cheating; it is simply an insult to willfully and consciously lust after another whilst in a relationship - be it through pornography or fantasies about another.

While on this, I just wished to pass along my beliefs that looking at another woman is not necessarily an insult to the one you are with. No matter your age, sexual preference, or gender, you look at people all day long. Be it a guy looking at another guy in a passive manner, or a girl looking at another girl in a passive manner - just because a guy may look at a girl does not mean the guy is "checking her out" in the sexually lustful sense. Again, it is only an insult to your significant other when you lust after another. It is only cheating when you act upon those lustful urges in the form of contact with another person be it physical or mental (telephone, internet, cup and string, etc).

[Eddie Pinz]

How big a deal is it really to not masturbate if your partner has issues with it? In the meantime, I'm thinking that the person who has a problem with it should try to be understanding of needs.

I think it would be a very big deal. Mostly for the same reasons that Neo said.

Wil,

I really don't see porn as willfully lusting after another. I see it as an aid that helps the process along. Also, watching porn isn't always sexual. It is down right funny sometimes. Not to mention pornography is something that can be enjoyed with your partner, if the situation is right.

[daPyr0x]

Maybe it's just something I've always thought to be true... but you really have no control over oneself if such low animal desires are beyond your grasp. It is not cheating; it is simply an insult to willfully and consciously lust after another whilst in a relationship - be it through pornography or fantasies about another.

While on this, I just wished to pass along my beliefs that looking at another woman is not necessarily an insult to the one you are with. No matter your age, sexual preference, or gender, you look at people all day long. Be it a guy looking at another guy in a passive manner, or a girl looking at another girl in a passive manner - just because a guy may look at a girl does not mean the guy is "checking her out" in the sexually lustful sense. Again, it is only an insult to your significant other when you lust after another. It is only cheating when you act upon those lustful urges in the form of contact with another person be it physical or mental (telephone, internet, cup and string, etc).

I can see your argument as a legitimate basis for not exposing yourself to pornography or otherwise lusting over those who you are not with. If your partner finds it inappropriate, I'd have to agree that it's something you need to restrain yourself from.

However, that's not to say that you're never going to "pleasure" yourself when left to your own devices. If you use your own mental images of your significant other while doing that, then you're doing nothing wrong. I don't think my partner has any right to tell me otherwise.

[Wil]

Wil,

I really don't see porn as willfully lusting after another. I see it as an aid that helps the process along. Also, watching porn isn't always sexual. It is down right funny sometimes. Not to mention pornography is something that can be enjoyed with your partner, if the situation is right.

If you're watching porn (assuming it's not home made and your partner isn't a pornstar), and you're using it to get off, for those minutes that you are going at it you are "WILLFULLY" lusting after another. Quotes, this time, as in the thralls of passion it seems that one is less capable of rational thought and what was once unfathomable is now desired. Despite this, it is still really an insult to many significant others.

I will however agree that porn is funny. Also, of course if the significant other knowingly accepts it (or even participates) then what I said is no longer valid.

[endercoaster]

ok... when I was in high school, I was in a play with a girl who was in a committed relationship. In the play she needed to kiss somebody. She told her boyfriend this. He was ok with it at the time, but broke up with her after the performance as a result of the kiss. I guess my question with this story is where's the line between acting and cheating?

My perspective is that if it's something scripted or requested by the director, it's acceptable, but if it's something added, it's not. I still am not sure whether there's anything wrong with enjoying what the director does tell you to do. Just thought I'd throw something out there that's a little bit more gray.

[starlooker]

I think that's screwed up on the boyfriend's part. Either he has some self-esteem issues and/or he's way too possessive, or he was looking for an excuse to break up with her. Acting is acting, and rehearsing is sometimes necessary. And it's not wrong to "enjoy" it, I don't think -- kissing is, um, a fun thing to do, so I've heard. One partner doesn't have the right to go nuts over whether it was enjoying it "too much" or scrutinize every little detail of it. There should be some basic trust that the relationship is more important than the kiss in the play -- ESPECIALLY if she discussed it with him.

Now, if all of a sudden all they were doing was rehearsing the kissing and that's all she could think about and it led to a relationship that extended past the play, that's one thing. But otherwise, meh, let it go.

My mother had a drama minor in college and was in lots of plays, including plays where she had to kiss male actors. My father (along with her mother) was supportive, and actually went to every performance of every play. They've been married 32 years now. He teases her about it once in a great while, and it's just a funny little thing. I never asked, but I imagine it was weird on both sides the first time that happened. But if you're insecure about it, I think you need to look at the source of your own insecurity and not blame your partner for your issue.

[starlooker]

*double post*

My thoughts on the play, by the way, somewhat parallel how I feel on the masturbation/fantasy issue as far as the partner shouldn't be intrusive or determine that you enjoy it "too much" or really exert a lot of control in this arena.

I don't care if my boyfriend masturbates. Hell, I'd worry more if he didn't. And while I like to think he thinks about me, if he doesn't all the time, I don't mind that much. At least, I don't let myself dwell on it. After all, I think about him most of the time when it's me, um, self-loving -- but not all the time. It's IMAGINARY. It's a break from real life and a stress reliever and it just doesn't mean all that much to me. I just assume this is true for most guys as well.

I don't feel a need to discuss it with him, so I suppose you could say that it falls under the "hiding" rule. Except that I'm not hiding it, and if he really wanted to know, I'd tell him. I just don't feel the need to bring it up. It's private and it's not really his business, and I think some discretion is okay. Same as, while I don't mind if he thinks of other women, that doesn't mean I want to hear about exactly who or what or why this particular woman. That would just make me crazy, and I really don't need to know as long as his behavior towards me remains respectful and healthy. I think a having a certain amount of discretion and allowing your partner a certain amount of privacy is more respectful than communication (or forcing disclosure) of every single thought.

I waver on what I think of the porno issue, though. I think really, it's more a matter of what's right for the couple than anything else.

Myself, meh. I'm not really into it, I think a lot of it is degrading, and I have to say, when boyfriend recently said that he hadn't watched any in over a year, I was happy to hear it. But I don't think it would've driven me too crazy if that weren't the case, though, although I wouldn't have exactly been thrilled about it. But, really, as long as I don't have to see it hanging on the walls or sitting in the DVD stand and as long as I'm reasonably sure he's paying attention to ME when we're together, I don't care that much. I wouldn't like it, but it also wouldn't be a deal-breaker.

[3nder]

how could you even enjoy it you not even near the person and although
the orgasmic noises are making you horny id say its still a bit cheesy like online sex only you talking not typing

ahh heck what would i know im 14 years old

[Gravity Defier]

How big a deal is it really to not masturbate if your partner has issues with it?

If they'd be willing to have sex up to multiple times a day, I don't think it'd be a problem.

We don't have a smiley that perfectly captures my facial expressions upon reading this. I was amused, I'll put it that way.

Anyhow, I can't argue with Jason. I personally have no problem with a S.O. masturbating and at the risk of giving T.M.I., depending on the situation, it can be a turn-on that they do.

[neo-dragon]

Hell, also at the risk of giving T.M.I., I can't think of a situation where a S.O. masturbating wouldn't be a turn-on. Either that means I have a limited imagination, or just the opposite.

[KennEnder]

id say its still a bit cheesy like online sex only you talking not typing

ahh heck what would i know im 14 years old

Having to type would definitely kill it even MORE... at least on the phone you can HEAR her (or his) voice.

And at 14... oh, never mind... TMI

[zeroguy]

This thread has far too few euphemisms for talking about masturbating. I'll try my best, but I can only do so much.

Hell, also at the risk of giving T.M.I., I can't think of a situation where a S.O. masturbating wouldn't be a turn-on. Either that means I have a limited imagination, or just the opposite.

I think you have a limited imagination at what they might be looking at when she's feedin' the beaver.

Also, a point which hasn't been brought up yet... I don't remember where I saw this, but isn't it healthier at least for guys to be floggin' the dolphin regularly? I mean, if this is the guy you could see yourself having kids with, don't you want to give them the most advantages they can have? Go buy him some porn!

Oh, and I just realized this is the first time on any incarnation of pweb that I think I've heard anyone use TMI. We've all been sheltering each other all this time! Clearly we should've started discussing slappin' the salami awhile ago.

[Eaquae Legit]

Actually, I was just pondering a modly request to keep things to PG or PG-13 in here...

[Gravity Defier]

Actually, I was just pondering a modly request to keep things to PG or PG-13 in here...

Sorry. I never mention stuff like this because I was sure things had to stay PG.

Hence the TMI warning. I'll pretend I'm done.

[Luet]

I agree with EL, there are some 14 and under, so we should probably keep it relatively clean. Talk about the morals and generalities as we were but not necessarily the graphic details.

[KennEnder]

We have a dissenter! Someone disagrees that phone sex is cheating! (Or at least, so says the poll... where's the comment, though?)

Does anyone think that sometimes our values are a little mixed up? I mean, in the US (and Canada?), it's okay for a 14-year old to see/know gory details of murder, bloodshed and war, but nothing about sensualities? if it has to be one or the other, I think I would rather see that particular value reversed.

[Dr. Mobius]

Yes, because 14 year olds certainly haven't hit puberty yet.

[Luet]

I don't think it's good for them to see gory violence either but i don't have control over the FCC. I'm not saying we can't talk about sexuality, I would rather just keep it PG or PG-13 as EL said. And also keep it respectful, ie using proper names and not vulgar terms. But I acknowledge I'm probably in the minority which is fine.

[Jebus]

I didn't see any vulgar talk in this thread, Luet. I saw people talking in an adult and healthy manner about sex, masturbation and arousal.

[I know you're doing it to get a rise, but I don't care all that much aside from feeling obligated to edit it. -- EL]

[neo-dragon]

I gotta say, I don't really see anything inappropriate either. I thought that we were keeping it PG-13. There's nothing in this thread that I didn't learn about in 7th grade health class.

[Eaquae Legit]

The thread hasn't been that bad. I'm actually rather impressed with the maturity of the posts. I just wanted to remind everyone to keep it that way.

[Luet]

I think you have a limited imagination at what they might be looking at when she's feedin' the beaver.

Also, a point which hasn't been brought up yet... I don't remember where I saw this, but isn't it healthier at least for guys to be floggin' the dolphin regularly? I mean, if this is the guy you could see yourself having kids with, don't you want to give them the most advantages they can have? Go buy him some porn!

Oh, and I just realized this is the first time on any incarnation of pweb that I think I've heard anyone use TMI. We've all been sheltering each other all this time! Clearly we should've started discussing slappin' the salami awhile ago.

This was really the only thing that I thought crossed the line from respectful into vulgar and inappropriate. Are you saying that these terms would be used in a 7th grade health class? That's all I was referring to. Sorry to seem like I was generalizing for the whole thread. Overall, I think it has stayed very mature.

[neo-dragon]

Actually, in health class we did talk about some of the colloquialisms and slang. I mean, why not? If you're going to talk to kids about masturbation why not address some of the labels that they're familiar with?

[Luet]

Fine. I'm the only one who thinks the term "feeding the beaver" is somewhat vulgar and demeaning. I guess vulgar is all relative to what you hear on a regular basis and come to feel is acceptable.

Carry on.

[Jayelle]

No you're not the only one.

[KennEnder]

Okay. Talking about something in class doesn't necessarily make it acceptable discussion in "polite society." I'll bet the teacher got more than a few giggles from the students, some perhaps even uncomfortable ones. The way I was taught, if you wouldn't say it in front of your grandma, you probably shouldn't be saying (or writing) it in public, which this forum more or less qualifies for. Obviously it makes some people uncomfortable, and that's the point: as much as reasonable, we don't want to make people too uncomfortable...

On that note, I would have to admit, that while Zero's comments made me chuckle, they were probably a little bit much... not without humor, mind you, and not something that anyone over 12 might not be familiar with, but still... they push those "polite society" limits!

[Luet]

Well, thanks. I'm glad to know I'm not completely alone in my feelings.

[zeroguy]

Oops. At least I made one person chuckle.

If it helps at all: I actually had to choose "feedin' the beaver" from a list I looked up; I didn't actually know any slang for female masturbation off the top of my head.

The health thing was a serious comment, though (except for the slang addition).

[neo-dragon]

The beaver thing made me smile too. And indeed, there are supposedly health benefits that come with regular masturbation for guys. It flushes out dead sperm in the urethra, thus clearing the way for the healthy guys, it's thought to reduce the risk of prostate cancer, lower blood pressure, and possibly even help fight off colds. It also helps relieve stress and depression.

I imagine it has some of the same effects for women too.

[Gravity Defier]

And indeed, there are supposedly health benefits that come with regular masturbation

So all that stuff about hairy palms and blindness and kittens dying were lies?!


Just an anecdotal story that makes me question what I'll do when I have my own kids. In my house, masturbation was never something we really openly talked about but it was never made out to be a bad thing (or a good thing, for that matter). It just was what it was.

A friend, who I'll call R, had parents who were very open about sexuality and masturbation when R was growing up and R is now what I would consider a promiscuous person. This isn't bad for her, because it's her body and her life. For me, to have sex outside a relationship or to have one night stands is pretty scandalous.

Another friend, S, had parents who told her whatever lies they could think up to get her to stop masturbating and made her feel guilty about anything sexual at all. She is also promiscuous and has at several times been involved with multiple people in the same time frame. Again, not bad for her because it's her body and her life, but something I would never be okay with.

I don't think I'm a prude and within a relationship, I don't think I'll be unadventurous...but I will never have a sexual lifestyle that gets close to what these two friends of mine have had and do have. I have to wonder how much the attitudes of our parents played into how we turned out.

[KennEnder]

Obviously, "how we are raised" has some repercussions on later attitudes and actions, and sex/sexuality/masturbation is no different. The difficult part is determining what that effect will be! As you made clear, both friends grew up in very different households, but eventually ended up very similar. Opposite results are also possible, of course. So it not only depends on the family values, but also on peer values, society values, personal perceptions of those sometimes conflicting values, etc. Is the child a "rebellious" child, in which case they may do the opposite of what they perceive as the "family value" just out of spite. Are they mad/angry with Mom/Dad? Have they embraced some other set of values from their friends/acquaintances? We have probably all experienced these various reactions either personally or through some friend's experience.

There is no easy answer, and like all other aspects of raising a child, you will often find that "rolling the dice" is more often a better predictor of child behavior than logic or expensive psychological evaluations.

Result? IMHO, play it by ear and do what "feels right" at the time for you and each individual kid. (NOTE: I personally would avoid the "make the kid feel guilty about pleasure" approach, since they'll probably just do it anyway and thereby learn to keep secrets from you. That can't really be in their best interest or yours. )

[v-girl]

The beaver thing made me smile too. And indeed, there are supposedly health benefits that come with regular masturbation for guys. It flushes out dead sperm in the urethra, thus clearing the way for the healthy guys, it's thought to reduce the risk of prostate cancer, lower blood pressure, and possibly even help fight off colds. It also helps relieve stress and depression.

I imagine it has some of the same effects for women too.

Well, but aren't some of those benefits for orgasm, not necessarily masturbation? And flushing out old sperm isn't good for health, it's good for fertility. Not technically the same thing.

The prostate cancer thing... well, it seems kind of backwards that masturbation is helpful. I thought (and I may be wrong) that it is only "beneficial" in the sense that STIs or other diseases can increase your chance of prostate cancer, so less intercourse may be the real issue here.