Universal Language Debate

[AnthonyByakko]

However, despite China's growing influence in the global economy, large numbers of Chinese citizens have very little contact with the world at large, and the Chinese language (Mandarin and Cantonese) is spoken little outside of mainland China, bordering areas and Taiwan.

[zeroguy]

Actually a few years ago the Japanese government started a program to replace english words in Japanese with Japanese ones. When asked how they would spread the message, the Prime Minister said "With the 'massumedia.'" It's pretty bad in Japan.

I would say Engrish is more prevalent with the kids these days. That quote is a little confusing, though; was the rest of it in Japanese? If he actually said "with the", well... then he was just speaking in English, heh.

[luminousnerd]

Is there any group or organization currently promoting a one-world language?!

[jotabe]

You may be able to answer this better than most of the people here, jota. Is it common, where you are, for people to be able to converse in a second language? Are they able to understand it or read in it? Or is it generally restricted to academic knowledge and not really practiced aside from, say, scientific journals?

Well, it depends on the country. In Spain, knowledge of English is terrible, still, when you finish highschool you are expected to be able to read and understand a plain english text, and to have developed some hearing/speaking skills. Still most population becomes english-illiterate after a few years later. You can't expect spanish people to be able to converse in English as a result of our education... usually it takes supplementary effort (english academies and private tutoring).
Other countries of Europe are different because, as i said, in their TV there are shows that are shown in English, subbed into their language. In these countries, from what i know, they are able to speak in English after high-school.

Still, no matter how competent they are in english, i have never found two speakers of the same language using english to talk among them, unless for practices purpouse.

And even for academic use, English is only reserved for international relations (invited professors/students), or for specialized vocabulary. In our specialist speech we throw in english words constantly.

[Charlie]

However, despite China's growing influence in the global economy, large numbers of Chinese citizens have very little contact with the world at large, and the Chinese language (Mandarin and Cantonese) is spoken little outside of mainland China, bordering areas and Taiwan.

However your forgetting the large number of Chinatowns in the West which help to spread and advertise Chinese culture, just like how the Japanese/Samurai/Anime fad of the last 10 years is starting to die down Chinese is growing to takes its place as China develops its soft power.

[RoyalMother]

Given the large variation in the perceived meaning of various words within the "English speaking" people, there will still be cultural misunderstandings.

(hint: within the US, some words carry a very different meaning to a northerner, or westerner, or southerner)

[eriador]

Actually a few years ago the Japanese government started a program to replace english words in Japanese with Japanese ones. When asked how they would spread the message, the Prime Minister said "With the 'massumedia.'" It's pretty bad in Japan.

I would say Engrish is more prevalent with the kids these days. That quote is a little confusing, though; was the rest of it in Japanese? If he actually said "with the", well... then he was just speaking in English, heh.

Of course he was speaking Japanese. My problem is that if I just posted a bunch of Japanese, nobody would understand it.

[eriador]

Actually a few years ago the Japanese government started a program to replace english words in Japanese with Japanese ones. When asked how they would spread the message, the Prime Minister said "With the 'massumedia.'" It's pretty bad in Japan.

I would say Engrish is more prevalent with the kids these days. That quote is a little confusing, though; was the rest of it in Japanese? If he actually said "with the", well... then he was just speaking in English, heh.

Of course he was speaking Japanese. My problem is that if I just posted a bunch of Japanese, nobody would understand it.

[Eaquae Legit]

Except... they don't really spread much, Charlie. I live in chinatown, and as a white person I feel very out of place some days. I can't read most of the signs in my neighbourhood. And when I leave my neighbourhood, everything reverts back to English.

[zeroguy]

just like how the Japanese/Samurai/Anime fad of the last 10 years is starting to die down

It's starting to die down? I seemed to have missed that memo.

(I would replace "Samurai" with "Ninja", but that's just me.)

[Julius Caesar]

Sorry for not posting, I've been studying for some maths exams...

Anthony said,

The homogenization of earth, indeed, the confluence of many globalizing effects, will lead us to either continual unification, or the total destruction of civilization.

I agree.

EL,

If you have said this, you have not spent hours and hours cursing the French, the Germans, and the Italians for publishing research vital to your own in languages other than English. It is maddening. What you are in fact saying is that you haven't encountered non-English research much yet. You will, grasshopper, you will.

There are no scientific magazines with more impact around the world than Scienceand Nature. Also, the physics magazines with more impact are in English (e.g. Europhysics Letters, Reviews of Modern Physics) and many other physics journals of non-English speaking countries have their Physics Journal in English (e.g. Chinese Physics Journal).

Rei,

I do not believe that it would ever work. Either many would not learn it or it would become a first language, which is why I oppose the idea. Either it wouldn't work or it would elminate other languages.

Take India as an example - the hundreds of different cultures that there inhabit are united by English. And it works because it is a "foreign" language - if one of the cultures' language was chosen, that would be unfair for the other cultures. So why not a universal second language mixture of all the mother languages? This would help us unite and improve communications betwwen countries in a fairer way and still preserve our own cultures, just like in India.

[Rei]

I think, Julius, the difference lies in our priorities. I do not believe that a univseral language is worth the loss of so many cultures. I fully agree that it has strong, unifying benefits. However, I do not believe them to be worth the amount that we would lose. In short, the greater good, in this case, I do not believe to be truly greater, whereas you believe that it is.

[AnthonyByakko]

I still don't see why a unifying language would "lose" "many cultures". I haven't seen one iota of evidence to support this hypothesis, nor any shred of proof that what is allegedly going to be lost "isn't worth" what is to be gained.

[Rei]

The issue of native americans losing their languages ties directly into their culture. One of the first thing that was done to try to eliminate their cultures was to force their children into schools where they could only speak English. Speaking their native languages was seen as allowing the native cultures to "win", as it were. And North America's general treatement of the natives and their languages is apparent in their cultures today, which are rapidly dwindling. Now this is also due definitely in part to advancing technology, lost wars, et cetera, however the direct attempt to silence their languages was a big part of this. And because we have seen it happen at least once, although I am certain that the native americans is not the only case, we know that when a language begins to become dominant and take over a region to which it is not native, the culture will be warped to match the culture of that language. And on a large scale it would apply the same effect to all languages and cultures. And it would take an awful lot to convince me that actively pursuing a universal language would be worth the death of so many cultures. If it happens in time on its own, nothing can be done to stop it. This does not mean that we should attempt to bring it about or that it is a good thing.

[AnthonyByakko]

The issue of native americans losing their languages ties directly into their culture. One of the first thing that was done to try to eliminate their cultures was to force their children into schools where they could only speak English. Speaking their native languages was seen as allowing the native cultures to "win", as it were.

Here's the difference: no one is saying or even vaguely implying that anyone is going to force a language on anyone else. We (and by we, I mean me) are saying that eventually, as a necessity of evolution, a single language will become dominant and unify linguistics. You're making assumptions about the assimilation of Native Americans that are not justifiable - like that forcing them to speak one language, one that wasn't theirs, was the cause of the "loss" of their cultures. This is not only false, but egregiously so. The fact is that no one can foresee just what might be lost in seperate cultures if they all began to use a single language to communicate; and we know that the gain - communication and unification - would be important.

[jotabe]

But as i see it, it is impossible that the international language would substitute the vernacular languages unless it becomes vehicular in the teaching. That is, unless most of the subjects at school are taught in that language.

I'll give you two examples i know:

-Latin in Spain: Rome didn't really enforce the Latin language. Many parts of Spain belonged to Rome only nominaly: they were fully independent, except for the taxes they had to pay as a tribute. Still if you wanted to be successful, economically or politically, you had to engage in their culture. And the only teaching available for hispanos was the teaching offered in Latin by Rome. So, by the natural flow of things made the hispan languages disappear, and only Latin remained.

-Spanish in Galicia: Spanish language was the language of the elite classes in Galicia. Business, administration and religion were done in Spanish. Still, since the education wasn't available for the landworkers (wich made about 99% of the population), and the social system of that peoriod was closed, static, the amount of speakers of Spanish never rose over the 1% (over a period of 4-5 centuries). It was much later (early XX century) when free education was decreed (obviously, only in Spanish language), that Galician language began to lose speakers, slowly. Nowadays Galician speakers make up 70% of all Galicians, but amongst the youngest generation, only a 10% speak Galician (despite the Galician language being allowed into school since 25 years ago, and becoming co-official language in the administration).

[Julius Caesar]

Rei,

I think, Julius, the difference lies in our priorities. I do not believe that a univseral language is worth the loss of so many cultures. I fully agree that it has strong, unifying benefits. However, I do not believe them to be worth the amount that we would lose. In short, the greater good, in this case, I do not believe to be truly greater, whereas you believe that it is.

Well, yeah, I believe (as Anthony said) that it will be either the unification or autodestruction. Obviously I am for unification.

Besides, it is not as the example you gave of the Native Americans since it is not about forcing the language on others in order to erradicate their culture, as it was done with them. I believe the universal second language to be a tool that would improve comunication around the world and make the world feel less divided by the language barriers.

Jota,

But as i see it, it is impossible that the international language would substitute the vernacular languages unless it becomes vehicular in the teaching. That is, unless most of the subjects at school are taught in that language.

And what about a mixture? For example, I have classes in both Spanish (with Mexican teachers) and in English (with Canadians, British, Scottish, etc.). Getting back to a universal language (as a second language), classes could be taught in both the mother language and the other second language as it is done with English, giving place to both.