Riddles in the Dark

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Riddles in the Dark

Postby locke » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:45 pm

so I came across two links today that made me realize we need a Hobbit Thread.

The first is some very intelligent fellow encouraging everyone to reread the Hobbit before the movie, because they will be surprised to discover that it is not as lacking in literary merit as the Tolkien apologists (who invariably worship the Silmarillion) would have us all believe:

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2012/09/ ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
One of the most consistently underappreciated elements of “The Hobbit” is Tolkien’s use of poetry and song throughout the book. Most readers skim over the poems or even skip them outright, but they miss out on some of Tolkien’s most thoughtful and compelling literary moments. The songs in “The Hobbit” are not merely verses embedded in the story; they are poems carefully designed to capture the voices and illustrate the attitudes of their singers.

The simple chant of the goblins when they first capture Bilbo and the dwarves, for instance, gives readers a stark insight into the goblin outlook on life in just the first few short lines: “Clap! Snap! the black crack! / Grip, grab! Pinch, nab!” The harsh, explosive consonants and the action-focused, verb-heavy monosyllables instantly immerse readers in the hard, violent world of the goblins, who take simple pleasure in acts of cruelty. The dwarves’ song in Bilbo’s kitchen, in which they cheerfully threaten to “Chip the glasses and crack the plates!” sounds similar, but reflects their comparative mildness and the domesticity of their (merely humorous) threats through the complexity of their phrasing and poetic lines. The Wood-elves also sing a monosyllabic song as they watch their barrels roll into the river, but their soft liquid consonants (“roll-roll-rolling down the hole!”) and their enjoyment of amusing sounds (“Heave ho! Splash plump!”) show that their simple pleasures are as innocent as the goblins’ are cruel. Tolkien’s poetry enriches and complements not only the plot of the story, but the development of his fictional world.
And then, news to me, Tolkien revised the Famous Riddles in the Dark chapter so that it would work with the Lord of the Rings series. And here is a link with the text of the original Riddles in the Dark next to the text of the revised Riddles in the Dark:

http://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Where iss it? Where iss it?" Bilbo heard him squeaking. "Lost, lost, my preciouss, lost, lost! Bless us and splash us! We haven't the present we promised, and we haven't even got it for ourselves."

"Where iss it? Where iss it?" Bilbo heard him crying. "Losst it is, my precious, lost lost! Curse us and crush us, my precious is lost!"
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby locke » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:02 pm

I love this trailer, the first, with the Dwarf song about Smaug.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOGsB9dORBg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby darth_ender » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:57 pm

Ah, I see you found the same Riddles in the Dark site that I found. I posted it at my favorite Star Wars site as well, though the thread is sadly lacking in attention. Perhaps you'd enjoy my Middle-Earth related posts there.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic. ... pic/13070/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was understanding of splitting the book into two films but very resistant to the idea of three. Now I'm more open to the idea, as long as it's rather faithful to Tolkein's notes and appendices and such.

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby darth_ender » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:04 pm

I should have mentioned that this site is pretty cool and let's you ask and answer Gollum some riddles. Kinda fun.

http://apps.warnerbros.com/thehobbit/riddles/us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby elfprince13 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:16 am

The first is some very intelligent fellow encouraging everyone to reread the Hobbit before the movie, because they will be surprised to discover that it is not as lacking in literary merit as the Tolkien apologists (who invariably worship the Silmarillion) would have us all believe:

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2012/09/ ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't think any "Tolkien apologists" would claim the Hobbit is lacking in literary merit. If we did, we wouldn't be Tolkien apologists (literally, people who defend Tolkien). That said, Silmarilllion is a *phenomenal* work, and I don't think the Hobbit is in the same league as far as literary endeavors go. That's fine - one's supposed to be a fairy tale (or a meta fairy tale), and one is intended to provide a complete mythical framework for the country of England. If you think what I'm saying is somehow "anti-Hobbit", you ought to read Tolkien's essay On Fairy-Stories.


Relatedly, and shamelessly:

http://www.amazon.com/Hobbit-Journey-Di ... 1587433001
Image
"What are the costs of military victory? Is mercy sometimes too expensive? Can torture ever be justified? Are there any moral absolutes in a world of competing faiths and cultures? A Hobbit Journey traces these and many other issues through their surprisingly detailed presentation in Tolkien's fiction. If anyone should still doubt Tolkien's applicability and relevance to the twenty-first century, this is the book to put in their hands."
--Thomas Shippey, author of J. R. R. Tolkien: Author of the Century
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby GS » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:59 pm

I have to admit that I wasn't very excited about film, until the trailer was released. Every time that I heard news about it, there were problems going on. And I loved the LofR trilogy so much, I was very much "meh" toward the Hobbit. But my lord does it look good. Definitely need to re-read it before December.
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby locke » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:50 pm

Tolkien apologists definitely defend him; they especially advocate for greater acceptance/appreciation of his merits on literary grounds. They pretty much universally use Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion as the basis of all their advocacy and the Hobbit is mostly ignored. Since the film trilogy, most of the apologists have shifted to focus even more on the Silmarillion. The point of my comment was that I find it refreshing and unusual for any advocate of Tolkien to treat the Hobbit as possessing literary merit, rather than giving it the usual treatment of being shunted aside or rudely ignored.

You can rest assured that I have read On Fairy Stories more times than I can count, the first time being in fifth grade.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby elfprince13 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:06 pm

Since the film trilogy, most of the apologists have shifted to focus even more on the Silmarillion.
I won't really disagree, except to say that given the way Peter Jackson butchered Tolkien's work, it's not surprising to me that a lot of Tolkien scholars want to work from material for which their audience won't have a tarnished impression based on the film.

My excitement for the Hobbit is more excitement in another opportunity to see John Howe and Alan Lee's cinematic visions of Middle-Earth on the big screen than it is out of any expectation that Peter Jackson will do justice to the plot or characters.
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby jotabe » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:39 pm

hehe, i could never get past like 25% into the Silmarillion, but on the other hand, The Hobbit was a very beautiful read to me. Guess which one holds more literary merit in my opinion ;)
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby locke » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:41 pm

hehe, i could never get past like 25% into the Silmarillion, but on the other hand, The Hobbit was a very beautiful read to me. Guess which one holds more literary merit in my opinion ;)
That's true for me too.

On the other hand, I tried to read the Silmarillion at 13, which is not a very good age to attempt that material.

I'm planning on doing a whole reread of Hobbit, LOTR and Silmarillion this fall.

As for the films, i don't think they were a butchery, I think it was a very intelligent approach that disconnected itself from the books enough so they could do what was right on film. The films and the book are two very different things, and I think the movies got it 95% right, so I don't fault them for the 5%
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby elfprince13 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:55 pm

On the other hand, I tried to read the Silmarillion at 13, which is not a very good age to attempt that material.
By way of counterpoint, I would give the Silmarillion a read-through on nights when I was bored in middle school. Loved it.
I'm planning on doing a whole reread of Hobbit, LOTR and Silmarillion this fall.
If the Silmarillion as a whole is still too daunting, consider grabbing Children of Hurin.
As for the films, i don't think they were a butchery, I think it was a very intelligent approach that disconnected itself from the books enough so they could do what was right on film. The films and the book are two very different things, and I think the movies got it 95% right, so I don't fault them for the 5%
The plot was about 85% right, but Peter Jackson just sh*t all over the characters. Faramir and Treebeard were virtually unrecognizable. Elrond, Frodo, Gimli, Gandalf, Aragorn, and Denethor all came out pretty shoddily. He made up a couple scenes worth of B.S.: Aragorn falling off the cliff, Sam turning back from Cirith Ungol, Faramir bringing them back to Osgiliath, Treebeard being tricked into going to war, and Gandalf getting his kicked by the witch king (which doesn't even make sense, since Gandalf is an angelic being older than the world who has just been resurrected with ADDITIONAL power to finish his task in Middle Earth, and the Nazgûl are shadows of humans). And left out the *single* most important sequence in the books: the Scouring of the Shire.
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby GS » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:24 pm

As for the films, i don't think they were a butchery, I think it was a very intelligent approach that disconnected itself from the books enough so they could do what was right on film. The films and the book are two very different things, and I think the movies got it 95% right, so I don't fault them for the 5%
Completely agree, with two sticking points. There is no reason that the scourging of the Shire was not in there. And Faramir. There was no conceivable point to changing his character. "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo." Enough said.
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby steph » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:52 am

Tyler is going to start The Hobbit tonight!!
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby Syphon the Sun » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:51 am

Tyler is going to start The Hobbit tonight!!
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby Syphon the Sun » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:58 pm

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby Syphon the Sun » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:52 pm

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby elfprince13 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:25 pm

I saw that yesterday on io9. I'm not sure what to make of it.
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby Jayelle » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:43 pm

I kind of hate the shoe-horned in advertising, but then again, hobbits really like food and would totally eat that.

...except that, since I'm currently re-reading the book, I have to note that there's always a food shortage on the journey.

Hobbit Slam sounds painful.


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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby neo-dragon » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:51 pm

"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby Rei » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:20 pm

That... was really, really pleasing. <3
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby elfprince13 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:54 pm

I saw that a couple days ago and loved it :)
"But the conversation of the mind was truer than any language, and they knew each other better than they ever could have by use of mere sight and touch."

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby Briseis_Liberated » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:20 pm

EEP! Forgive me while I fan girl out... I'm so excited to se an Lotr thread.
Ok I'm over it.
So I read this whole thread and have yet to see anyone post about Tom bombadil and the complete lack of mention or anything in the movies. Why?!

Also I totally agree
As for the films, i don't think they were a butchery, I think it was a very intelligent approach that disconnected itself from the books enough so they could do what was right on film. The films and the book are two very different things, and I think the movies got it.... "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo." Enough said.
On both points. That quote EXACTLY came to mind about Faramir. I have read most of the silmarillion but I'm ashamed to say I haven't read it cover to cover. My fave ia (of course) the story of beren and luthien. I wish I could've seen more of that in the movie if evens references to Aragon and arwen. Eerrgggghhhh there are SO MANY THINGS I'd love to see brought to life but alas...it's impossible even given a trilogy to work with.
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby elfprince13 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:26 pm

EEP! Forgive me while I fan girl out... I'm so excited to se an Lotr thread.
Ok I'm over it.
So I read this whole thread and have yet to see anyone post about Tom bombadil and the complete lack of mention or anything in the movies. Why?! .
While I'm a huge Bombadil fan, his being left out was one of the only changes Peter Jackson made that I thought was okay. Even if it confused the scene where Merry kills the witch-king because the audience thought it was Eowen, not knowing about his magic sword. Have you read the Adventures of Tom Bombadil?
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby locke » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:11 pm

I have secured tickets for a midnight showing in HFR3D and Dolby Atmos Sound! :D
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby neo-dragon » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:44 pm

Is it just me, or is This one of the most beautiful and epic movie songs ever?
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby Briseis_Liberated » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:22 pm

I couldn't open that link on my iPad. :( I was all excited to appreciate some new movie music but alas. Not meant to be.
One mind can think only of its own questions; it rarely surprises itself. -Bean ES

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby Briseis_Liberated » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:22 pm

I couldn't open that link on my iPad. :( I was all excited to appreciate some new movie music but alas. Not meant to be.
One mind can think only of its own questions; it rarely surprises itself. -Bean ES

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby neo-dragon » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:31 pm

That's what you get for using an iPad. I hear that they're also notorious for accidental double posts. :wink:
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby elfprince13 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:44 pm

I couldn't open that link on my iPad. :( I was all excited to appreciate some new movie music but alas. Not meant to be.
It's been blocked in our country :(
That's what you get for using an iPad. I hear that they're also notorious for accidental double posts. :wink:
It's what we get for being American ;)

I'll post this link and hope it's the same as the one he's trying to share: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n312EWPO0G4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby neo-dragon » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:52 pm

That's the song, but it sounds like someone recorded it by holding a mic to their speaker and then put it online. It really doesn't do it justice I'm afraid.
This one's better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFlGZwkY ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Hopefully it's not blocked.
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby elfprince13 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:59 pm

Yeah, it is :( I'm jealous of Canada.
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby neo-dragon » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:02 pm

What the hell?? That's weird.
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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby Briseis_Liberated » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:09 pm

Haha! Double posts...oh you! Now my curiosity is just fit to BURST.
One mind can think only of its own questions; it rarely surprises itself. -Bean ES

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby Briseis_Liberated » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Oh oh oh oh oh I found it!! A good version.

:thumbs: :stamp: :hatsoff: :bow: .........and so on.
One mind can think only of its own questions; it rarely surprises itself. -Bean ES

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Re: Riddles in the Dark

Postby elfprince13 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Link me to it!
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