"Turn him loose as a theorist..."

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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Bean_wannabe » Sun May 13, 2012 3:51 am

Personally, I reject the label of delusional via the definition you provided. I don't believe that the existence of God is contradicted by what's 'generally accepted' to be reality. He may exist outside of our reality, but also within it. And the universe already allows for omnipresence in the case of the quantum field and timelessness in the case of photons - do you disregard belief in these as 'delusion'?
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Tiny genius » Sun May 13, 2012 7:33 am

Too right! "Reality" and God don't cancel or contradict each other. They can both be part of this universe. In fact, the universe seems to be set up to allow for God's existence. Maybe, I don't know, it is... smeg, nearly midnight, I have assignments and coffee. I'm tired!

Oh, hey, look at that. Five pages, go my thread. I'm tired and happy now.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Sun May 13, 2012 11:28 am

I can sort of buy into the "timelessness" of photons, and the "omnipresence" of the quantum field, but neither includes omniscience, telepathy, telekinetics, or a great, giant being that loves us and wants to punish us in everlasting flames at the same time.

And even then, I have some serious reservations about the "timelessness" of photons, and the "omnipresence" of the quantum field. There's something about those theories that feel like too great a "stretch" to me. I also think that the "multiple/parallel/self-spawning" universe conjecture as a possible solution to some of the mathematical difficulties in quantum mechanics is foolishness. It's like if I put a negative value for "t" into Newton's equation of motion, and get a non-imaginary answer, can I go around proclaiming, "See! Time CAN run backwards!" It can't. Or, at a minimum, that's no proof for whether it can or not.

But, regardless, I don't go modifying my life, my attitude, or my behaviors based on it, and I don't go trying to proselytize it to others.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Dr. Mobius » Sun May 13, 2012 11:40 am

Too right! "Reality" and God don't cancel or contradict each other. They can both be part of this universe. In fact, the universe seems to be set up to allow for God's existence.
It's easy enough to see things that way when even men of science and reason find excuses to leave room in thier theories and formulas for what is, in my opinion, an adult security blanket.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Tiny genius » Tue May 15, 2012 12:16 am

I don't cling to my faith because it is some kind of "security blanket". I've explained my reasons for belief and if they seem paradoxical and self-referential then that's because they are.
Additionally, I don't "leave room in my formulas" or anyone else's to allow room for God, it just happens that there is room for him. The ultimate question that must inevitably be asked is "Without God, how did the universe come to be?".
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby neo-dragon » Tue May 15, 2012 4:44 am

"Without God, how did the universe come to be?".
But, how did God come to be?
Last edited by neo-dragon on Tue May 15, 2012 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Bean_wannabe » Tue May 15, 2012 5:48 am

Scientific fallacy. Cause and effect states that everything that began had a cause. The universe began, therefore it had a cause. God didn't begin, being eternal, so does not require a cause.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby neo-dragon » Tue May 15, 2012 8:28 am

That doesn't really make any sense.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 10:27 am

So, if we're to play on an even playing field, BWB, then you are demanding a special playing chip that reads, "THIS CHIP ALLOWS ITS HOLDER TO CLAIM THAT ONE THING THAT EXISTS DOES NOT ACTUALLY NEED A CAUSE"

I imagine either it would be a very large chip, or use a very small font, but that's not important right now.

Can I also get one of those chips? Or are only YOU allowed to have one of those chips?
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 10:32 am

So, from what I have read and discussed for over 3 decades, this is God:
  1. Immense in size
  2. Invisible
  3. Exists outside of existence
  4. Exists outside of time
  5. Telekinetic
  6. Telepathic
  7. Incapable of clear, understandable speech (or else we wouldn't need so many damned Bibles, and so many damned Sects, each with its own interpretation)
  8. Loves us all
  9. Threatens us all with infinite torture if we don't love it back (in just the right way--not that we're sure what that way is; see #7)
  10. Supports Genocide
  11. Supports the rape, by priests, of young virgins
  12. Can cause sudden death
  13. Can cause immediate resurrection
  14. Demands human sacrifice
  15. Demands the dissolution of families
  16. Created a universe filled with false clues as to its age
Have I missed anything?

And those of you who FIRMLY believe in this thing, you have a hard time with evolution over billions of years, do you? Really?
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby neo-dragon » Tue May 15, 2012 11:54 am

That's someone's God, I'm sure.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 12:05 pm

Well, I'd love to add to it, if I've left some aspects off.

Then people could simply write down the vector for which God they believe in, such as:

I believe in [1,3,5,6,8,11,14,16,18], etc.

I believe in the null set.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 12:13 pm

We can add to that:

17. Humanoid (on a scale of 1 through 10. 1= vaguely humanoid; 9 = Primary and secondary sexual characteristics are present; 10 = also has a belly button)
18. Elephant (list number of arms)
19. Other earthly creature (bird, dog, wolf, etc., or a combination)
20. Skin color as measured by the Von Luschan Chromatic Scale:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Luschan_scale" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(Choose a value from 1-36; list as "20:12", for instance)

Any others?
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Luet » Tue May 15, 2012 12:24 pm

Why is it so important for you to mock and attack the people here who do believe in God? I mean, you seem way more nasty and proselytizing with your non-belief than any of us are with our beliefs. Maybe you are letting your experiences with other types of religious people affect your way of dealing with anyone who is religious? You have said that we (on this board) seem to be "good" people (despite, I guess, some of our religious beliefs). So, what does it matter to you if we believe whatever we believe? No one seems to be trying to convince you of anything, while you do seem to be trying to do a whole lot of convincing. Discussion is one thing but disparaging other people or their beliefs just doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 12:36 pm

It's not mocking or attacking if it is a true representation of what various people believe about their (various) Gods.

I assume that religious people here have, at least, the courage of their convictions, and can state what aspects from that list define their God to them.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Luet » Tue May 15, 2012 12:52 pm

I don't mean that list in particular (but I don't think that you made the list as a means to a serious discussion). I was referring to your overall tone and approach to religious discussions in general. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by it. People who already don't believe in God, don't need to be convinced by you. People who do believe in God are most likely going to be put off by the way you address them and what they might believe. So, are you writing just to rant about this topic?
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 12:58 pm

Luet,

YOU are approaching this discussion from the point of view that GOD actually exists.

I am approaching this discussion from the point of view that NO GODS EXIST.

TG says, "Here we let our minds run free, with our ideas unbound by ridicule or preset notions and ideas in our chosen fields. Challenge your own assumptions and put the results here."


I do apologize for the tone of ridicule that entered into my earlier discussions. But, as you can see from my list, people make some pretty ridiculous claims about their various Gods.

I am asking you to set aside your preset notions for the moment. Assume there IS NO GOD.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 1:05 pm

We're here for philosophical discussions.

The existence (or, rather, the lack thereof) of God or Gods is one of the MAJOR TOPICS of philosophy.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Luet » Tue May 15, 2012 1:13 pm

Luet,

YOU are approaching this discussion from the point of view that GOD actually exists.
Actually, other than specifically addressing false assumptions about my specific religion, I have not discussed anything regarding the existence of God. My only interest in this discussion is keeping a respectful tone throughout, regardless of what you believe. I honestly don't care whether a person believes in God or not. It does not make me think more or less of them. If they want to know what I think, then I'll discuss it. If not, then I don't. But that does not seem to be the case with you. If a person does believe in God, it seems to offend you. So, my question is, why? Kind of like when people get upset about the sexual orientation of people...why not just let people believe what they want (if it's not hurting anyone) and respect them enough to not demean them for it? How is religious discrimination more acceptable to you than sexual discrimination?
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Bean_wannabe » Tue May 15, 2012 1:24 pm

So, if we're to play on an even playing field, BWB, then you are demanding a special playing chip that reads, "THIS CHIP ALLOWS ITS HOLDER TO CLAIM THAT ONE THING THAT EXISTS DOES NOT ACTUALLY NEED A CAUSE"

I imagine either it would be a very large chip, or use a very small font, but that's not important right now.

Can I also get one of those chips? Or are only YOU allowed to have one of those chips?
Incorrect. Correct me where you see a logical error:

1. Causality, as far as I understand it, states that every change in state requires a cause of some sort.
2. Coming into being, passing from 'not existing' to 'existing' is a change.
3. Therefore coming into being requires a cause.
4. The universe began, and therefore came into being.
5. Therefore, the universe requires a cause.
6. An eternal God (if one exists) has no beginning, there was no point where He (or She or It) did not exist.
7. Therefore He (or She or It) did not come into being.
8. Therefore He (or She or It) does not require a cause.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 1:36 pm

BWB,

How do you know the universe began? If I changed my theory to "The universe is infinite in time", then it doesn't need a creator.

THE UNIVERSE IS INFINITE IN TIME.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 1:39 pm

The further problem is that there is no evidence that your God exists (by definition, he/she/it is outside the realm of "evidence"), or, should it exist, that it is infinite. These are simply claims made by men, regarding a fictitious/fantastical entity.

We KNOW the universe exists (I am NOT descending into sophistry). We ASSUME it is finite.

I can claim that the universe is INFINITE with the same validity as you can claim that God is infinite. That is: NONE. But why let it stop me, when it certainly doesn't stop anyone else?
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Bean_wannabe » Tue May 15, 2012 4:56 pm

Look, I'm dealing with one point at a time here. I was dealing with your assumption that God requires a creator if the universe does.

And if you accept the scientific method, the universe isn't infinite as astrophysical evidence shows the universe is expanding and has been since the Big Bang, before which it did not exist.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 5:01 pm

If you accept the scientific method, then God does not exist.

Which way do you want it?
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 5:02 pm

However, if the universe is cyclic, then it may be infinite. We are just unable to see the universe before this current cycle.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Tue May 15, 2012 5:11 pm

Also: you claim that everything that CHANGES requires a creator. Or, at minimum, something that causes the change to happen.

You claim, without proof of your claim, that something that exists does not need a creator. This is a unique statement that seems only to apply to your particular "God" (actually, also to similar gods, but not to all gods). It is not a scientific claim, unless you know of a way to test it. Can you provide other examples? As I mentioned, you cannot tell if this "law" applies to our universe or not.

Your only claim on God's "Infiniteness" comes from a 5,000 year old book that also states that birds have four legs and snakes eat dirt. The God's of other cultures are not all "infinite" Some of them are born. Some of them may die. Therefore, the attribute of "infiniteness" is not common to all "Gods." You're making a special claim. Your claim has, as its sole basis, that 5,000 year old book. Claims made in its 2,000 year old "Shadow Series" book are based on the initial claims.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Bean_wannabe » Wed May 16, 2012 1:19 am

If you accept the scientific method, then God does not exist.

Which way do you want it?
What I've just been saying is to show that it isn't against the scientific method. You can't reject one argument by ignoring the scientific method and then reject God entirely on the basis of it.
However, if the universe is cyclic, then it may be infinite. We are just unable to see the universe before this current cycle.
Occam's Razor blows this to pieces. So instead of believing in a God with (as you claim) 'no proof' you're going to believe in an infinite sequence of universes, containing an infinite amount of complexity, again with no proof? Please try to have some consistency in the level of evidence you will accept.

I don't claim, causality claims. I think you will be hard pressed to find a scientist who would not agree that a change in state requires a cause, and a constant state does not. Look at the laws of motion, etc. Starting to exist IS A CHANGE. This requires a cause, which I dub 'creator'. An infinite God did not start to exist. This does not require a change. Therefore it does not require a cause!

And I'm not arguing for all Gods, I'm arguing for one. And if you want to get into the historical validity of the gospels, just ask. It's a fun subject.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Tiny genius » Wed May 16, 2012 4:08 am

I'm all for what BWB is saying.

Also, clarify for me which religion allows the rape of virgins by priests.

Now for simplicity of speech, can we call the God that we believe in personally (if we do believe in one) "God" and the general idea of god or a god(s) "Ish". This is a nice, vague name, being a suffix that generally expresses "sort of but not quite" and is also the reversed initials of the He or She or It description of god <-Ish.


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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Dr. Mobius » Wed May 16, 2012 4:29 pm

Ha! I do believe this is the first time I've seen the Razor used to defend God. Usually the other side uses it to claim that the deity is the needless overcomplication.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Bean_wannabe » Wed May 16, 2012 4:33 pm

Really? I've seen it quite often. Ish is a single (or finite number of) being(s) with a finite number of properties. By OR, Ish's looking pretty good.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Wed May 16, 2012 4:58 pm

The Jewish religion allows for virgin girls, captured in battle, to be given the the priests for their own sexual satisfaction.

What I find interesting is that Jesus says NOTHING about homosexuality; it's all in the Old Testament. Yet it's mostly Christians that oppose homosexuality, and Jews (for the most part) really don't give a damn.

And how is a belief in God not against the scientific method?

1.Ask and define the question.
2.Gather information and resources through observation.
3.Form a hypothesis.
4.Perform one or more experiments and collect and sort data.
5.Analyze the data.
6.Interpret the data and make conclusions that point to a hypothesis.
7.Formulate a "final" or "finished" hypothesis.

(Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_ ... z1v4k1Rg1l" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

So....

1. Is there a God? Does God exist?

2. There is a book that says "God exists." The book also says "This book is totally true." I also think I heard my dead grandmother whispering to me at 2am

3. Claim: "God exists"

4. Not possible (by definition). Oh, but I really do think it was my grandmother. She said she loves me. She also said that my name begins with an "M." Or an "L." Or maybe an "S."

5. Not possible (no data)

6. Not possible (no data)

7. Therefore "God exists."

Like I said. Not with MY scientific Method, you don't!

I was hoping you'd use OCCAMS RAZOR. I win.

1. There is a universe. It is incredibly complicated.

2. You claim that anything (and I re-state: ANY THING) complicated HAD to have been created by something MORE complicated. Less complicated things cannot lead to more complicated things, or even to equally complicated things. A whirlwind cannot blow through a junkyard and create a 747.

3. You claim that, therefore, a thing that is MORE COMPLICATED THAN THE UNIVERSE created the universe. You assign to that thing a name value of GOD. (You also then go and assign a series of additional, unrelated attributes to this universe-creating thing you call God. Please see my previous lists)

4. I Claim that there must therefore be a God+1 that is more complicated than your God, to have created your God. Also, that there must therefore be a God+2 that is more complicated than the God+1, and so on, and so on, and so on.....

5. You accuse me of being disrespectful, and mocking. You then go and make up addition rules of logic, additional properties of your God, so that you can violate those rules of logic, discard limits of reality, all in the desperate attempt to "prove" that your God exists, is real, and is infinite (not that you actually know what that means--none of us do), and is the be-all and end-all (Alpha and Omega, that sort of stuff)

6. All the people who came to the table believing in God think that you have "won." All the people who have come to the table who believe that there is no God, and are no gods (or "Ish"...puh-lease), realize that you're not making any sense, but that you will most likely feel justified by your irrational mental gymnastics.

7. The world continues on. Things become a little weirder between us.
Last edited by Boothby on Wed May 16, 2012 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Dr. Mobius » Wed May 16, 2012 5:00 pm

Heh, to be honest Bean, I've learned to avoid most religous debates and have been following this one in an official capacity as much as because of any personal interest. It seems everyone has been reiterating the same aurguements for and against since ancient times and with both sides so deeply entrenched, it's really little more than a lesson in futility. It's almost as bad as politics...
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Boothby
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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Boothby » Wed May 16, 2012 5:15 pm

In simple terms:

If we accept the scientific method, then there is no proof or even evidence that your God (or any god) exists. There is also no proof or evidence that the universe is infinite or cyclic. Both are fine by me. Whether the universe is cyclic or not has no impact on me; I don't embrace the claim, or attempt to live my life by it, or attempt to force others to live their lives by it.

If we reject the scientific method, then you can claim anything you want, as can I. The person with the most perseverence, loudest mouth, boldest type, largest functioning genetalia, strongest weapons (see previous), etc., etc. wins. At that point, the argument DOES become meaningless.

But guess what? If you claim the scientific method, there is no God. If you ignore the scientific method, the claim that God Exists is a meaningless statement. It may have deep, personal value for YOU, as well as for others, and it has had this deep, personal value for millions of people, for millenia, but it is not a "truth statement." The stastement that "God is Truth" (or "the truth" or "the one truth", etc.) is, itself, a false statement.


BTW: If you have a better way of "knowing truth" than the scientific method, please propose it. Then prove to me it works. Probably using the scientific method, I would imagine.....
--Boothby

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Tiny genius » Thu May 17, 2012 12:16 am

Space-time is infiniet? I found this once:

If space is infinite, the relative velocity of light is 0.
If light-speed = 0 and motion in space × motion in time = light-speed...
According to the nul factor law, one of these is 0.
Since we appear to be moving through space and time, space must be finite.

Feel free to correct as necessary.
"Other universes may exist, but ours seems to be based on war and games" - William S. Burroughs

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Re: "Turn him loose as a theorist..."

Postby Bean_wannabe » Thu May 17, 2012 2:58 am

For your point on OR, I think you're getting confused about the necessary definition of 'complicated'. From an OR perspective, a simple hypothesis is one that requires:

1. A small number of entities
2. A small number of properties of entities

God has both of these, being one being with a small number of properties, i.e. omniscience, omnipresence, etc.

Note this is a different definition of 'complex' than you mean when you say the universe needs to be created by something more complex. I assume you would not argue that by 'more complicated' you mean more intelligent/powerful/etc? Because God fulfils these criteria also, by having infinite degrees of the small number of properties.

Furthermore, you're entirely ignoring my point about infinite beings not needing a creator without offering any reason for doing so, giving me no reason to accept your point 4.

What 'additional rules of logic' have I employed? Where have I violated logic?

If you're seeing the two choices as 'the universe is cyclic' and 'there is a god', and you believe that the universe is cyclic then you are living your life by this claim. You are basing your life off the fact there is no god, and living accordingly!

You claim there is no evidence that any god exists. What definition of evidence are you employing? Because if you're using the standard scientific one, that's simply not true.
"You're going to burn in a very special level of Hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater."


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