Pweb Meta Talk: Can we move it? Make it better?

[Syphon the Sun]

Noodle and Luet have pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter.

Part of what I dislike about this conversation, that I may be reading in, is that it's making me feel very defensive on behalf of Jan, Ali, and Adam

First of all, I'd like to apologize to anyone (including Jan) who felt like I was attacking them. I certainly didn't mean to give off that impression.

That said:

It struck me as her trying to appoint someone, as Ami, the person who was formerly in charge used to do without question/complaint, and then explaining why she did it when there was objection.

Here's my big problem with this interpretation: it ignores the fact that this isn't the first time the discussion has been brought up, nor was the discussion brought up after she mentioned appointing someone. Outing myself as Confessions, I previously said that it made me feel out of the loop that people were randomly made mods/admins without anyone's input that I thought it was a decision that should have been a community one. I said I thought it was unfair that some decisions were made without consulting the community at all, particularly given the fact that, from the very beginning, this has supposedly been a community-wide endeavor. EL put a clamp on that discussion, but promised that all decisions would take place on-board, would reflect that this is a community endeavor, and would be articulated clearly and publicly. When it became clear that the move was actually happening, I brought it up, again. There was (very) light discussion. That discussion was ignored immediately thereafter and we were all simply told what was going to happen. Which is what led to my initial confusion.

Nor do I think it's fair for them not to have votes in whatever process is chosen. They are also long-time invested board members who know us and know the community.

I agree with this completely. I certainly think they should still have a say in this whole process. They're members just like the rest of us.

I'll post more, tonight.

[Luet]

Okay, I take back what I said about the mods not getting a vote. You caught me at a bad moment and I shouldn't have said that. Sorry guys. I still think this whole thing should be a community decision though.

[Gravity Defier]

promised that all decisions would take place on-board, would reflect that this is a community endeavor, and would be articulated clearly and publicly. When it became clear that the move was actually happening, I brought it up, again. There was (very) light discussion. That discussion was ignored immediately thereafter and we were all simply told what was going to happen.

This, a million times, and better put than I could do it in my not-so-happy frame of mind.

I like Jan, Adam, and Ali just fine as Pwebbers but liking them as people and friends does not mean I like the decisions that have been made.

I despise secrets and non-disclosure. This is not the same situation as 11 years ago. Jan, in my opinion, should be a glorified tie-breaker as the person in charge. Hear the members who want to speak up, go from there.

[Jayelle]

Okay, just so you all know, I'm reading what you've said and I'm thinking and forming my response. I will be able to do so in an hourish when my kids are in bed.

For those of you worried about my feelings in this: They are not hurt. Do not worry.

[Noodle]

Another sticking point that we should at least talk about before any new vote process happens. Do we limit who can vote?

I would say that the mods should definitely have a vote. One could argue if the Mods should have a more powerful vote, but I'd say one vote per person with all votes being equal.

But what about new accounts? inactive accounts? or other accounts that might show up and vote as part of the process? Clearly we would want all active members to have a vote, but we also don't want votes swayed by a flurry of new accounts that register with the sole purpose of voting.

Maybe I'm over-thinking this, since the new mod votes probably won't happen all that often, and any member who's nominated for Modship will be a trusted member who probably wouldn't stoop to such levels. Maybe we just take it on a vote by vote basis. We trust the mod team to review votes and if there are any discrepancies they can either make the decision to count the vote or not. Just raising this point before it comes up in practice and we have a problem.

[Luet]

Maybe we just take it on a vote by vote basis. We trust the mod team to review votes and if there are any discrepancies they can either make the decision to count the vote or not.

At this point, I think we are small enough that this would work. Especially if the voting period was short enough (a week or less). In the future, if we grow by leaps and bounds, then maybe a post requirement could be implemented (say, 50 posts in order to vote). Although, I still hope there is a way to keep the voting private so that feelings do not get hurt any more than necessary.

[Dr. Mobius]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm5XUi3tKos

[Eaquae Legit]

Okay, just so everyone's clear, I've been quite otherwise occupied these past couple weeks, and quite honestly when the board got altered/shifted/whatever it was today, I was very surprised. I assumed this was just because I'd been absent, but I'm getting the vibe more is going on.

I'm sorry to everyone for whatever part I had, or was supposed to have and dropped the ball on. When I get some free time, I'll read through this thread properly.

[Noodle]

Okay, just so everyone's clear, I've been quite otherwise occupied these past couple weeks, and quite honestly when the board got altered/shifted/whatever it was today, I was very surprised. I assumed this was just because I'd been absent, but I'm getting the vibe more is going on.

I'm sorry to everyone for whatever part I had, or was supposed to have and dropped the ball on. When I get some free time, I'll read through this thread properly.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty sure most of us here understand that you've had just a few things going on recently, and I don't feel like anyone's saying that you dropped the ball.

[Luet]

None of these frustrated feelings have anything to do with you being busy lately. That is totally understandable and we are all overjoyed at your new bundle of adorableness. Take your time and we'll all be here, waiting to figure things out, when you are ready.

[Young Val]

I'm sorry to everyone for whatever part I had, or was supposed to have and dropped the ball on.

Ali, if I say nothing else for the rest of this discussion, let me just say that you have nothing to apologize for and it is of course recognized that your attention is elsewhere at the moment (as it absolutely should be).

[Syphon the Sun]

[insert everything that Noodle, Nomi, and Kelly said up there.]

[steph]

Ali, baby is far more important than anything else.

If we choose to vote for mods, I will participate and cast my vote as best I see fit. I agree that we want to be comfortable with our mods. Noodle's layout of the site sounds fine.

My post earlier was putting trust in Jan because I do trust her. I don't know what it's like to mod, so I was trusting in her experience. I do have concerns that if the site grows, we could have a bunch of 12 year olds picking the mods.

I would prefer to count my vote as neutral on this topic, since I can see pros and cons to both methods. I will support what is chosen in very way. I'm sorry if this makes me seem apathetic or dismissive or anything else. I just feel like the site will run fine either way and I have other things to occupy my worry time, so I'm not going to worry about this.

[Jayelle]

Can Open. Worms Everywhere.

On why we need a new mod:
So, we need a new mod, because the "Mod team" of Adam, Ali and I is 1) Adam who isn't around and wants to step back a bit, 2) Ali who just had a baby and can't be expected to put as much focus into modding as she used to and 3) Me.
Ali and I are both in a far east/British time zone, so a fair amount of the evening stuff that goes on here, goes on in the middle of the night for us. I frequently wake up to a board full of new posts.

I'd like at least one, maybe two people just to be around, to help make decisions, deal with spam stuff that crops up and to lay down the law if needed (so very rarely, I know).

On Noodle's Plan:

I am on board with (most of) Noodle's plan. In fact, I'd like the tech guys (Wil, Noodle, Zero,Wind Swept) to make Tech accounts immediately, and take away your mod status on your regular accounts.

On Why I Appointed Josh in the First place:

Way back when we were first making the decision to either move this place to the .org, upgrade, etc, Josh, Will and Wil all were very active in wanting to help. They volunteered to help and I made them admin so that they had more access to what needed to happen. The really important thing about this is: they volunteered. When I had a baby, and when I had a bit of a breakdown and left for a bit, Josh stepped up and made sure that the behind the scenes stuff was being taken care of in my absence. It was at this point he became more of a "mod" then just a "you the right to poke around" in my mind.
My appointment of him was more of a "He's already been a mod for several months now" and less of a "My way or the highway" decision.

On Voting

I am absolutely willing to put things to a vote. I don't think we really need to worry so much about making a list of procedures, since putting a new mod in place isn't likely to happen many times.
What I'm going to do tomorrow is make a new thread with mod nominations and we'll go from there. Voting will be by PM to me, and winners will be by 50%+1.

Then there's this:

Jan, in my opinion, should be a glorified tie-breaker as the person in charge. Hear the members who want to speak up, go from there.

I really hope that is in reference only to the choosing of new mods, because if absolutely every decision on this board is going to be by vote, it's not going to work. I'm not putting in my time writing new rules and FAQ and other stuff if all I am is a glorified tie-breaker. Suggestions and opinions are great and have been great so far, but there needs to be someone to make it so. (and yes, I do see myself as Picard in this situation).


Lastly, I'm going to say something that's going unsaid here so far. I'm sure that people have opinions on who should be mod, possibly even that they should be a mod themselves. But it comes down to this: volunteering to help goes a long way. I'm sure there are some people who are more deserving of modship then others, but when it comes down to it, it's the people who volunteered to help that come to mind when appointing mods.

[mr_thebrain]

i'm about 50/50 thinking deciding on another mod should be put to a vote by just the current mods and be a community decision. jan being the tie breaker.

i think that most decisions should be made as a community on board. i'm not a big fan of so much going on off board. i mean, i don't do off board chats and such, but i consider myself a active member here. i may not post every day, but i'm here every day, several times a day. off board decisions take people like me completely out of the process and i'm not a fan.

if the current mods think that they would like to have one more mod, then i think it should be an active member of long time standing here. but must also be someone that no one would take issue with. (thus eliminating dr. m as a candidate, sorry) be of even temper, and actually want to be a mod.

perhaps as a community we decide on a handful of people we would like to see as mods and then the mods choose from that list?

i would be happy to be a mod. but i think my lack of off board communication would eliminate me as a choice. i would also enjoy seeing luet, or alea as a mod.

[Jayelle]

. but i think my lack of off board communication would eliminate me as a choice. i would also enjoy seeing luet, or alea as a mod.

I find this kind of hilarious considering how very little I communicate with people off board.

[mr_thebrain]

i wouldn't know. lol but fine, i take it back.

[Luet]

Can you explain about the thread you'll be making tomorrow for mod nominations? Will you just post a list of mod nominations or will we nominate people for possible mods?

[Wil]

Just an FYI, not sure if this matters or not, and it makes sense, but the "admin" email is currently set as chris@chrisfried.com.

Also, I went ahead and created a new account, TechWil, gave him admin privileges, and removed all admin privileges from this account.

[Luet]

On Why I Appointed Josh in the First place:
Way back when we were first making the decision to either move this place to the .org, upgrade, etc, Josh, Will and Wil all were very active in wanting to help. They volunteered to help and I made them admin so that they had more access to what needed to happen. The really important thing about this is: they volunteered. When I had a baby, and when I had a bit of a breakdown and left for a bit, Josh stepped up and made sure that the behind the scenes stuff was being taken care of in my absence. It was at this point he became more of a "mod" then just a "you the right to poke around" in my mind.

I wanted to comment on the italicized "they volunteered" part, since Caspian also referred to Mobius being the only one to have "stepped up". Am I right in the fact that the things that were needed at the time of this volunteering were of the tech variety? You mentioned it being about the move and the upgrade. That is all I remember help being needed for. I have always and will always be willing to help with anything I'm capable of doing. Heck, I have no job, no kids and no plans to get either. But to suggest that no one else stepped up to help isn't fair, if you are referring to things that only a small handful of members have the skills to help with.

[TechChris]

In fact, I'd like the tech guys (Wil, Noodle, Zero,Wind Swept) to make Tech accounts immediately, and take away your mod status on your regular accounts.

And thus Tech-Priest Chris was born.

[TechNoodle]

TechNoodle reporting for duty.

(I never had any powers under my main account, so I can't remove them from that account. Nor can I promote this one to do anything)

[Syphon the Sun]

Way back when we were first making the decision to either move this place to the .org, upgrade, etc, Josh, Will and Wil all were very active in wanting to help. They volunteered to help and I made them admin so that they had more access to what needed to happen. When I had a baby, and when I had a bit of a breakdown and left for a bit, Josh stepped up and made sure that the behind the scenes stuff was being taken care of in my absence.

Okay, so, I've always had problems with this explanation. The biggest being that we were told he was given admin powers so he could help with the "tech" stuff. Except, he openly acknowledged that he did not have the necessary tech knowledge to do anything move-related. Which is why I was sort of taken aback almost a year ago. And which is why I still don't understand the explanation. Particularly given that there are many others who volunteered to help and did have the technical skills.

Can you also elaborate on what he did in your absence, when and if you get the chance? I know that he and Will did the botkilling (six months later). But, given the "behind the scenes" nature, I think those of us not "behind the scenes" could benefit from the update.

I'm sure that people have opinions on who should be mod, possibly even that they should be a mod themselves.

For what it's worth, I didn't have anyone in mind when I made the suggestions last night. I didn't think any mod decisions would be happenings for quite a while, so I was more concerned with getting the discussion going for how that process (and the tech committee process) would happen in the future.

(And, also for what it's worth, I would very much like not to be a mod, on any committee, etc. I will help in whatever other way I can, including legal stuff, so long as people let us know what is actually needed.)

[Wil]

I have bestowed Tech abilities upon thee.

[Jayelle]

Way back when we were first making the decision to either move this place to the .org, upgrade, etc, Josh, Will and Wil all were very active in wanting to help. They volunteered to help and I made them admin so that they had more access to what needed to happen. When I had a baby, and when I had a bit of a breakdown and left for a bit, Josh stepped up and made sure that the behind the scenes stuff was being taken care of in my absence.

Okay, so, I've always had problems with this explanation. The biggest being that we were told he was given admin powers so he could help with the "tech" stuff. Except, he openly acknowledged that he did not have the necessary tech knowledge to do anything move-related. Which is why I was sort of taken aback almost a year ago. And which is why I still don't understand the explanation. Particularly given that there are many others who volunteered to help and did have the technical skills.

Can you also elaborate on what he did in your absence, when and if you get the chance? I know that he and Will did the botkilling (six months later). But, given the "behind the scenes" nature, I think those of us not "behind the scenes" could benefit from the update.

Please excuse my lack of memory for things that happened more then a year ago. I'm not sure what my exact reasoning was for the admin stuff in the first place.
At the point in time 9 months ago/2-3 months ago, I was deleting spammers practically every day (often before they posted). He took care of that.
The important thing in my mind is that this isn't "suddenly making Josh a mod" it's "making clear that he's been doing mod stuff for awhile".

[Luet]

Okay, but it's not like you put a call out saying you needed help deleting spambots and would anyone (tech savy or no) be willing to help, right? Because I don't remember anything like that. I'm not sure how Josh became the one who filled the mod shoes, if tech knowledge was not the prerequisite. I was somewhat offended by your and Paul's suggestion that he was the only one who offered to help. How can people offer to help if they have no idea that there is a need?

[mr_thebrain]

yeah, if i knew that all i needed to do was offer, i would have.


then again, i'm not complaining about doc m

[Wind Swept]

Just an FYI, not sure if this matters or not, and it makes sense, but the "admin" email is currently set as chris@chrisfried.com.

If we get the domain we can just set up admin@philoticweb.net and forward it to Jan, etc.

Or we can just switch it to whatever.

[Jayelle]

I was somewhat offended by your and Paul's suggestion that he was the only one who offered to help. How can people offer to help if they have no idea that there is a need?

It was only Paul's suggestion, not mine. Please do not hold me responsible for his rant.

I'm sorry I (we) didn't put the word out that help was needed. I'm sure there are many who would have stepped up. I am saying that we will make a decision about a new mod or mods (including Josh) tomorrow, or in the next few days. Frankly, because it will give us some space to cool off.


For anyone that is stirred up or pissed off or whatever (including my damn husband), please consider taking some time off posting for just a couple hours, or until tomorrow. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment. We're all still friends here.

[mr_thebrain]

aww, way to ruin the party, buzzkill

[Jayelle]

Correction: posting in this thread or about this hot topic, not posting in other threads. Totally post in other threads.

[GS]

I am someone who has had one his posts mod-edited because of a religious belief as well had a post deleted and an account de-activated without warning because I was venting to/about a particular member. In both cases, I felt that these actions were unwarranted. These are my opinions.

Outside the obvious that the person in question wants and is willing to be a mod, there are a couple of things that need to be there.

1. Time
2. Objectivity
3. No abuse of power

Time
This one is easy enough. The person needs to be on the board almost everyday. I realize that this is not always possible, but it should feel like that person is always there. Using JL and EL as examples, it always feels like they are here. On the other hand, Locke's absence could definitely be felt. Using myself as an example, I would be a terrible mod because I hardly ever check the board on the weekends. The person who takes this post will have to make time for the board and avoid extended absences, especially since the main reason for the new modship seems to be EL and Locke's lives are picking up in busyness and might not be around as much. As Jan mentioned, a west coast mod might not be a bad idea to even out the work load.

Objectivity
When the mod hat goes on, favorites must not be played. Everyone is going to have people they like more than others or get along with better than others. This has to be taken out of the equation entirely when settling a disagreement or using the mod hammer in some other way. I think that this is easier said than done.

No Abuse of Power
This is key. And self explanatory. Also, easier said than done.


I think that these are the keys to someone that wants to be a mod. I think our current mods (as well as past mods) have done a pretty good job with all of these. And the new person should be no exception. It should also be noted that being a mod is a (mostly) thankless job. When things are fine, mod hats are best unseen. When mod hats are adorned, there is almost always a tense situation going on. Make a mistake and you are going to hear about it. Also, the pay is pretty s*****.

[starlooker]

I'm sorry to everyone for whatever part I had, or was supposed to have and dropped the ball on.

Ali, if I say nothing else for the rest of this discussion, let me just say that you have nothing to apologize for and it is of course recognized that your attention is elsewhere at the moment (as it absolutely should be).

This. A hundred times over.

[Mich]

Hey guys.

Uh, just got home from work. Whew. This is an exciting and stressful time in our community's evolution, apparently. Just figured that as (apparently) one of the top ten active members on this board, I'd shove my two cents in:

1) I have pretty much excellent faith in virtually everyone who posts here, and our ability to arrive at a consensus about things together.
2) I'd feel much more awesome and mature as a community if we all picked a mod as a group (which it appears we're doing anyway), and I think it would set a great precedent on how we will proceed in the future. It looks like we're already heading that way, and apparently all of this excitement has pretty much already climaxed, but figured I'd shove that in.
3) All involved should remember that a call to action should wait a few days to ensure all of the active members see a message or a major decision. Some people have random busy spurts in their lives (what with births, jobs, etc) where they miss what happens on the board for short moments.

Just something I don't want anyone to forget. Boards are naturally slow-moving, and people take that for granted. I just don't want anyone to lose their opinion over something because they didn't log in between 5 pm and 6 pm last Tuesday or something.

Also: Oh, Ali. People blaming you for having a baby! That would just be ridiculous.

[LilBee91]

Also: Oh, Ali. People blaming you for having a baby! That would just be ridiculous.

Yea. Gosh, EL. How dare you let your darling newborn girl distract you from Pweb for even 10 seconds. Man...the nerve of some people.