Orson Scott Card on Terror War

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Postby zeroguy » Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:28 am

Lum: I don't mean to be rude (and I'm certainly not disagreeing with anything in that post), but that really didn't answer YV's question at all.

Wil: Sorry if I don't respond to what you said regarding the thread at hand, but are you a lurker, or just new here? In any case, welcome; have some limeade.

Edit: Well, okay, one thing:
While it isn't all bad, one of the fundamental beliefs in Islam is that anyone who is not Islam must be converted or die.
I have a good friend who is Muslim. He has not tried to convert or kill me in all the years I have known him. He must not be a very good Muslim.
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Postby luminousnerd » Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:47 am

Lum: I don't mean to be rude (and I'm certainly not disagreeing with anything in that post), but that really didn't answer YV's question at all.
Yeah I sort of got off on a tangent there eh?

Basically, I don't do anything spectacular to aid the environment. I practice basic things like recycling stuff. But I dont' really go out of my way for it because I know the world's not gonna last.

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Postby hive_king » Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:39 am

The office of the president deserves respect, even if you disagree with it. To bad that what really started to degrade the office of the president was Clinton and his alleged affair. Since then we've seen some pretty nasty mud flinging, and for the future of this country it honestly needs to stop.
I'd say it started with Nixon, but other than that, I agree with you on this one.
Just look at it this way: 90% of the people who voted for Kerry in the last election were not voting for Kerry, but AGAINST Bush. Fair enough, but a lot of the people who even did this disliked Kerry.
May I ask where your information came from
2) While we may have gone to war for the wrong reasons and incorrect intelligence, this does not mean the war was not required. The reasons we had were generally because of 9/11, and we invaded Afghanistan. While we may not have gotten Bin Laden, we were able to push him down enough to where he became less of an influence.
I think you are trying to combine or confuse the Afghani War and the Iraqi War. People generally agree afghanistan was a justifiable war.
Humans make mistakes, and we regret those mistakes. We put Saddam into power, and that was a mistake. We invaded Iraq with some fairly wrong intelligence, and that was a mistake. Another mistake, now, would be leaving Iraq and given terrorists a chance to integrate themselves into the newly formed Iraq government (see what happened in Lebanon). We MUST stay there to correct our past mistakes, for leaving would just lead to new mistakes.
So whats your strategy for winning? Just hanging around isn't neccesarily going to win the war. As it stands now, we're not winning.
3) It very much is a war on Islam just because Islam is the primary religion that terrorists operate under. While it isn't all bad, one of the fundamental beliefs in Islam is that anyone who is not Islam must be converted or die. That said, Islam is taught poorly to almost every Middle Eastern countries residence and, by association, their children.
Since when did you become such an expert in the middle east and how its taught? There are many different schools of islam taught to different degrees and different ways in different countries.
It's fairly hard not to call it a war on Islam when the parents of this next generation are teaching their children to hate America and Israel. Almost daily the president of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, talks about wiping both of our nations off the face of the planet. The children of those countries call us pigs and apes. They are taught that anyone not believing in Islam must die. The men are taught that they will receive 99 virgins in 99 mansions upon death.
A lot of people don't even look into things themselves. Instead of looking into the various news sources, they go with popular media and peer interaction.
For scorning people who didn't look into things, you are pretty guilty of it yourself. If you did your research, you'd notice that Ahmadinejad has only called for Israel to be wiped off the map, and then only a few times, not every day. You'd know that historically nonmuslims in muslim empires were not killed, they were often merely forced to pay higher taxes. You'd know that the number commonly given is 72 virgins (and only one palace, according to the hadith, but its a very nice one.) You'd also know that certain verse is highly debated, and not even from the koran itself.
This all considering that the creator of Islam, Muhammad, was a decorated war general.
Wrong again. He was a trader, by profession. Not a war general. He didn't end up a warrior untill after his followers were run out of Mecca and he had to become a war leader to keep his followers from being wiped out. You really don't check your facts, do you?
If any of you have done your homework you would see that, according to ice core samples from over the last 400,000 years, the temperature of the planet always drastically increased BEFORE the Carbon Dioxide began to rise. Even when the temperature began to fall again, Carbon Dioxide would still rise. Every single time it is shown to follow this pattern. Interestingly enough, this may even be due to the fact that as the tempature increased, the animal population may have increased as well. Perhaps the increase in CO2 was due to there being more living, breathing animals, which indirectly leads to increased CO2?
May I see your source on this?
which, again is interesting, lead to the creation of Beer because of all the grape vines dieing off.
Wow. Just wow. The utter lack of connection to reality your post has is amazing. Beer was created by the ancient egyptians and mesopotamians. This would place it thousands and thousands of years ago, not anything to do with the little ice age. Where do you find this tripe? Have you ever read a history book in your life?

Wil, welcome to the board, I hope you enjoy yourself.
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Postby Sibyl » Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:11 pm

I'd say it started with Nixon, but other than that, I agree with you on this one.
Johnson. I remember some _seriously_ nasty stuff that was said about him, totally unjustified, including pure obscene smear, public accusations that he was behind the assassination in order to inherit the Presidency, right down to petty stuff like the "cruelty to animals" flap about his lifting one of his dogs by the ears for a newspaper photo and "Uncultured Redneck" appellations related to his talking on the phone while sitting on the toilet (if he did--there was a phone in his bathroom). Part of the hatred directed at him was simply because he succeeded Sainted Martyred Kennedy, and part because he escalated Vietnam, a highly unpopular war from the git-go (though actually, Kennedy himself _started_ that escalation). And partly because of elements of his Texas "Redneck" style that was held in contempt by the rest of the country, especialy California and the Eastern Establishment, and some of which President Bush has inherited to this day.
It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

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Postby Sibyl » Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:30 pm

You'd know that historically nonmuslims in muslim empires were not killed, they were often merely forced to pay higher taxes.
In Koranic theory, sorta. At best, Christians and Jews are second-class-citizens: at worst, their worship is illegal, and they're subject to the death penalty, along with their convert, if any muslim to whom they've explained their religion does convert. There were all sorts of things, all over, as in relatively modern Turkey, where young Muslim men would get a young Christian man drunk, persuade him to convert to Islam while under the influence (all it takes is just repeating aloud the primary prayer, "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet) just once. After that, there was no going back when he sobered up: he'd be subject to the death penalty. In country after country, "witnesses" simply _lied_ that some Christian had converted to get him or her executed if he continued to practice Christianity, maybe because he owned property that they'd rather they owned. Similar things happened in "Golden Age" Spain under the Moorish Muslims--read scores of Spanish hagiographies. You might also do well to peruse the Voice of the Martyrs website.
It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

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Postby Wil » Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:00 pm

I'd say it started with Nixon, but other than that, I agree with you on this one.
Fair enough.
May I ask where your information came from
Various polls that happened around and after the time of the 2004 elections. Doubt I could find the actual polls now, so I guess my point is moot.
I think you are trying to combine or confuse the Afghani War and the Iraqi War. People generally agree afghanistan was a justifiable war.
Well, the 'War on Terror' didn't technically start until we started attacking Iraq, and we were attacking Iraq because of 9/11, even if indirectly.
So whats your strategy for winning? Just hanging around isn't neccesarily going to win the war. As it stands now, we're not winning.
Nope, it won't, but it's a safer bet than pulling out completely. Oh, and we might not be winning, but we're not loosing either.
Since when did you become such an expert in the middle east and how its taught? There are many different schools of islam taught to different degrees and different ways in different countries.
But we're not talking about the countries that we don't have trouble with. A school that teaches of Islam in the United States is obviously less likely to teach their kids to hate Israel, the United States, etc. As said in the 'Is Islam a Violent of Peaceful religion' thread: A religion can be used in both violent and peaceful ways.
For scorning people who didn't look into things, you are pretty guilty of it yourself. If you did your research, you'd notice that Ahmadinejad has only called for Israel to be wiped off the map, and then only a few times, not every day. You'd know that historically nonmuslims in muslim empires were not killed, they were often merely forced to pay higher taxes. You'd know that the number commonly given is 72 virgins (and only one palace, according to the hadith, but its a very nice one.) You'd also know that certain verse is highly debated, and not even from the koran itself.
It's amazing how different sources can provide different data, isn't it? Everything I stated I have read or seen on the news. Not just any single news channel either, I watch Fox, CNN, and MSNBC.

While not in speeches, it has been reported that Ahmadinejad speaks about it fairly often in private conversations or out in public gatherings speaking with private parties where he was overheard.

As for the virgins thing, there was just some Islamic guy who, upon marring a Christian women, decided to really look into Islam. According to him it was 99 virgins in 99 houses. So, take that as you wish.
Wrong again. He was a trader, by profession. Not a war general. He didn't end up a warrior untill after his followers were run out of Mecca and he had to become a war leader to keep his followers from being wiped out. You really don't check your facts, do you?
Not very kind in your rebuttal's, are you? Yes, I did just re-read the Wikipedia article on Mohammad and it appears you are correct in this matter. I confused what I read awhile ago with some statements I heard about "Mohammad is the only religious leader to also have been a war general."
May I see your source on this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Co2- ... e-plot.png

... and pretty much any other graph that compares the Temperature and CO2 Ice Core sample data.
Wow. Just wow. The utter lack of connection to reality your post has is amazing. Beer was created by the ancient egyptians and mesopotamians. This would place it thousands and thousands of years ago, not anything to do with the little ice age. Where do you find this tripe? Have you ever read a history book in your life?
Quit with the attacks, it's not very kind or professional at all. It's fairly easy to rebuttal without attacking the person you are rebutting against.

Again, my source for this was the History channel's production on the "Little Ice Age" -- it stated that in northern Europe during the time, the cold was becoming so bad that the grape vines were dieing off. So, to keep up the need for alcohol, they created Beer. They then brought the beer across the Atlantic to the United States.

Now, I can see where the confusion may lie. Beer had been created somewhere else in the world already and during the little ice age is when Europeans developed it and brought it across to America. I indeed did not even think of this possibility, so this is my mistake.


Glad to be here, just don't take kindly to the personal attacks, buddy.

Wil

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Postby luminousnerd » Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:12 pm

Yea, arguments have a tendancy to get that way here I've noticed.

I'm also guilty of it, usually once I start feeling attacked I lash back.

Anyways, welcome, Wil. I hope you're here to stay, because you seem to know your stuff better than I do, and you have similar opinions with mine :)

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Postby hive_king » Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:07 pm

Now the only thing I said that could be considered a personal attack was "have you read a history book in your life." That was probably a bit much, but come on, the personal attacks aren't quite as bad as you're making them sound.
But we're not talking about the countries that we don't have trouble with. A school that teaches of Islam in the United States is obviously less likely to teach their kids to hate Israel, the United States, etc. As said in the 'Is Islam a Violent of Peaceful religion' thread: A religion can be used in both violent and peaceful ways.
By "schools of islam" I meant different denominations and philosophies, not learning instutitions.
confused what I read awhile ago with some statements I heard about "Mohammad is the only religious leader to also have been a war general."
Wrong. Several of the Jewish leaders were war generals, such as Joshua (I think Moses, but I'm not sure.)
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Postby luminousnerd » Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:48 pm

Since when did you become such an expert in the middle east and how its taught?
That's an attack.
For scorning people who didn't look into things, you are pretty guilty of it yourself. If you did your research, you'd notice that Ahmadinejad has only called for Israel to be wiped off the map, and then only a few times, not every day. You'd know that historically nonmuslims in muslim empires were not killed, they were often merely forced to pay higher taxes. You'd know that the number commonly given is 72 virgins (and only one palace, according to the hadith, but its a very nice one.) You'd also know that certain verse is highly debated, and not even from the koran itself.
That's an attack.
Wrong again. (...) You really don't check your facts, do you?
That's an attack.
Wow. Just wow. The utter lack of connection to reality your post has is amazing. Beer was created by the ancient egyptians and mesopotamians. This would place it thousands and thousands of years ago, not anything to do with the little ice age. Where do you find this tripe? Have you ever read a history book in your life?
That's an UBER attack, how can you even deny that that was an attack?! n00b.
Wil, welcome to the board, I hope you enjoy yourself.
That's an attack since it's so sarcastic.

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Postby hive_king » Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:00 pm

Since when did you become such an expert in the middle east and how its taught?
I was honestly curious if he was really some sort of expert on middle eastern islam, due to his earlier condemnation of not checking facts and the certainty of his later statements.

For scorning people who didn't look into things, you are pretty guilty of it yourself. If you did your research, you'd notice that Ahmadinejad has only called for Israel to be wiped off the map, and then only a few times, not every day. You'd know that historically nonmuslims in muslim empires were not killed, they were often merely forced to pay higher taxes. You'd know that the number commonly given is 72 virgins (and only one palace, according to the hadith, but its a very nice one.) You'd also know that certain verse is highly debated, and not even from the koran itself.
How is that an attack? He didn't look deeply into things, and I am merely calling him out on it. how is that an attack, especially since it is factually true.

Wrong again. (...) You really don't check your facts, do you?
Again, factually true because he didn't check his facts, and I was telling him so.
That's an UBER attack, how can you even deny that that was an attack?! n00b.
Are you calling me a "n00b?" I have been on this board for over three and a half years, and a fairly active poster most of that time. I am fairly established on this board. And if you look at it factually, his post did have little connection with reality, (concerning the creation of beer) and I did apologize for the book remark. Other than that, I was merely correcting him where he was wrong. Not a personal attack, as I was not attacking him as a person. You really have gall calling me a noob, when you've been here for a week.
That's an attack since it's so sarcastic.
You are guilty of not checking facts, either. Otherwise you would know that I IM'd wil recently to personally welcome him to the board and invite him to the chat. Not exactly an attack, is it? You would also know that plenty of pweb members might rigourously disagree with eachother and be good friends outside of that. For instance, I am on good terms with Anthony Byakko and I was friends with taalcon (a very mormon former member) before he left. Now can we end with the ad hominems and get back to the discussion at hand?
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Postby luminousnerd » Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:10 pm

I was honestly curious if he was really some sort of expert on middle eastern islam, due to his earlier condemnation of not checking facts and the certainty of his later statements.
Well that's not the way you ask that if you're just curious. It came off as an attack.
How is that an attack? He didn't look deeply into things, and I am merely calling him out on it. how is that an attack, especially since it is factually true.
You made the reply way too fast to have looked into it yourself. You and he were both going on knowledge banks in your heads, just as everyone does when they are arguing unless they really put forth a whole lot of effort to look up stats and cite sources. There's nothing wrong with arguing WITHOUT looking up facts, and simply using the knowledge you have in your head! If you get something wrong, you shouldn't be attacked like that.
Again, factually true because he didn't check his facts, and I was telling him so.
In one of the rudest ways possible.
Are you calling me a "n00b?" I have been on this board for over three and a half years, and a fairly active poster most of that time. I am fairly established on this board. And if you look at it factually, his post did have little connection with reality, (concerning the creation of beer) and I did apologize for the book remark. Other than that, I was merely correcting him where he was wrong. Not a personal attack, as I was not attacking him as a person. You really have gall calling me a noob, when you've been here for a week.
One of the definitions of n00b, according to UrbanDictionary:
1) To act or behave in the way that a n00b would

It doesn't have to do with how long you've been anywhere. It doesn't have to do with being a newbie. It has to do with behaving like one. And secondly, I was calling you a n00b in the general sense, not specific to this board. I don't know how long you've been around the web, but I've been here for about 11 years and for the most part, that makes me a web veteran even though just about everyone's older than me.

And he turned out to be right about the creation of beer, in case you didn't notice the wikipedia article he linked to. You were right too, about it having been created before that, but it was re-created in an isolated situation, and he was completely right. His facts were right, yet you attacked him. And even if he was completely wrong, you have no right to attack him like that.
You are guilty of not checking facts, either. Otherwise you would know that I IM'd wil recently to personally welcome him to the board and invite him to the chat. Not exactly an attack, is it? You would also know that plenty of pweb members might rigourously disagree with eachother and be good friends outside of that. For instance, I am on good terms with Anthony Byakko and I was friends with taalcon (a very mormon former member) before he left. Now can we end with the ad hominems and get back to the discussion at hand?
I was supposed to "check my facts" against an IM conversation? Even if it's documented somewhere in these forums, that's not something that generally requires research. And now you're attacking me for not "checking my facts" against THAT?

I understand that you can argue with someone and still be on good terms. In fact, I know that's the only way to have a good, healthy argument (probably much of the reason I've been failing so miserably with my own arguments). However, you are making personal attacks, and I'm only defending the guy you were attacking (much because I've been in his position).

If he feels attacked, and I see malice in your words, how can you deny that you attacked him?

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Postby hive_king » Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:26 pm

You made the reply way too fast to have looked into it yourself. You and he were both going on knowledge banks in your heads, just as everyone does when they are arguing unless they really put forth a whole lot of effort to look up stats and cite sources. There's nothing wrong with arguing WITHOUT looking up facts, and simply using the knowledge you have in your head! If you get something wrong, you shouldn't be attacked like that.
Actually, I didn't respond to his post for quite a while after it was posted. Not only that, I am a philosophy major and have taken classes in religious studies, where we learned about Islam. I have also read the Koran. I think I have some authority, since I've already read the source material. And you confuse "personal attack" with being "rude". There is quite a difference. A personal attack is where you make judgements about the person themselves in context of the argument, also known as "ad hominem". Being rude just means my tone wasn't very pleasent. It might not be nice, but it isn't a personal attack.
One of the definitions of n00b, according to UrbanDictionary:
1) To act or behave in the way that a n00b would
Now an old phrase about pots and kettles come to mind, but it'd probably be lost on you (now that was a personal attack, since I was implying you're unusually dense.)
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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Postby luminousnerd » Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:46 pm

No point in arguing with you, then.

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Postby AnthonyByakko » Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:43 pm

Either of you, actually.

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Postby hive_king » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:16 am

Good to have you back, Anthony.
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Postby 21BRAVO » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:57 am

I think OS Card's view is mostly accurate, and I'm certain he has done more research on the topic of government than a lot of us combined. And while it is true that terrorism cannot ever be completely wiped out, we can focus on eradicating the largest cells of terrorist activity. And not all terrorist groups are Muslim. But to withdraw will only empower those we seek to destroy. And these terrorists are not only the enemies of the US, they are the enemies of the world though, sadly, many other governments find it both financially and politically convenient to not offer help in the fight against a common enemy. And when I think of the day when my boots will hit the ground, for I'm certain that day will arrive soon, I am proud to view myself as a liberator, fighting for a better future. I cannot be a hypocrite, and demand others make sacrifices for my good while I will not make sacrifices for their good.
Animus, Vires et Honoris


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