A question about Shadow Puppets

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BonitoDeMadrid
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A question about Shadow Puppets

Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:34 pm

Well, I've just re-read the book again, not having much to do in the flight back home (don't mind that now), and on chapter 7, "The Human Race" (I believe it's called that way, my book's translated), Peter Wiggin is conversing by E-Mail with someone whose address is-
unready%cincinatus@anon.set

Now, who is that guy?
They don't give you any detail about him whatsoever; I'd say he's Han Tzu or a different chinese person, because of the "We saw your little army rescuing someone from jail in a highway in China" part, but that is easily countered by his first mail, "...is there any reason why, if I'll tell you what I'm seeing from the sky, I won't be a traitor?" and from the "trying to get...out of Beijing's Bed." Those also blocks the option of him being from the Hegemony, as he can't give info to Peter without being treacherous to his country;
But, he also can't be from Russia and the new Warsaw Pact, because of those being mentioned in Peter's mails, in third-person, not "your state".
He must be high up in his government's heirarchy, due to the "we don't give info..." line in his second mail. However, he apparantly does not know much about Bean; otherwise he could have contacted him without a link to one of Bean's many addresses being sent (as told by Peter's second mail) to him.
Could he be the only man whose E-Mails with a character are documented in the Shadow series AND his identity is never revealed?
He can't be Embool (or however you say his name in English) because Embool knows Bean; He can't be anybody we know according to the info recieved from the E-Mail conversation. Only option left is a high-ranking personal, from one of Peter's spying networks; that's the most probable option, in my-2:35 AM mind.
What do you think? Help me out here.
Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cavefish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!

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Postby caretgraff » Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:59 pm

I'm gonna type it all up so maybe we can figure it out... but I think it's someone in the IF. Chamrajnagar? But under a different name? Unlikely that he'd need a different name or even be speaking to Peter. Graff? But Graff is clearly on the side of the Hegemony, despite Peter's mistake. Dimak? or... the security guy who was found treasonous at the end? That's a possibility... that he was buddying up with Peter first, then Achilles? In short, I have no idea. ;)

Who is "cincinnatus"? or what is it? Sounds like a Roman... Is that helpful? Don't they talk about Cincinnatus in Giant too? Still, you're probably right. Probably just some unnamed informant.

From: unready%cincinnatus@anon.set
To: Demosthenes%Tecumseh@freeamerica.org
Re: If I help you

So, Mr. Wonderboy Hegemon, now that you're no longer Demosthenes of "freeamerica.org", is there any good reason why my telling you what I see from the sky wouldn't be treason?

---------------------------------------------------------
From: Demosthenes%Tecumseh@freeamerica.org
To: unready%cincinnatus@anon.set
Re: Because...

Because only the Hegemony is actually doing anything about China, or actively trying to get Russia and the Warsaw Pact out of bed with Beijing.

---------------------------------------------------------
From: unready%cincinnatus@anon.set
To: Demosthenes%Tecumseh@freeamerica.org
Re: Bullshit

We saw your little army pull somebody out of a prisoner convoy on a highway in China. If that was who we think it was, no way are you ever seeing anything from me again. My info doesn't go to psycho megalomaniacs. Except you, of course.

---------------------------------------------------------
From: Demosthenes%Tecumseh@freeamerica.org
To: unready%cincinnatus@anon.set
Re: Good call

Good call. Not safe. Here's what. If there's something I should know because you can't act and I can, deaddrop it to my former cinc at a weblink that will come to you from IComeAnon. He'll know what to do with it. He isn't working for me any more for the same reason you're not helping. But he's still on our side-- and, fyi, I'M still on our side, too.

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Postby KennEnder » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:51 pm

It may not help much... it's been a LONG time since I read the books and I will try to get into them and figure it out now, too ... but I think "cincinnatus" is an abbreviation. CINC = "commander in charge" and Peter refers to his previous cinc in the last message cited above ("to my former cinc"). Commander in charge of WHAT? perhaps the last "us" is the USA?

Crazily enough, I don't remember being "in the dark" when I read it originally. At least I THINK I thought I knew who it was...
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Postby caretgraff » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:47 pm

Oooh... Americans...

CINC- commander in charge, or in chief? in nat US. Right on, man. And I haven't finished Giant yet, but aren't the Americans funding the IF? So they could be seeing things from the sky via the IF...

So... some unprepared US president?

You're so clever. :)!

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Postby KennEnder » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:56 am

Okay... a slight modification. Of course CINC can also mean "Commander-in-Chief" as in the US President, but usually not. After all, there is only ONE US Presidential Commander-in-Chief, but many "CINC's". For example there is CINCLANTFLT (Commander in Chief of the Atlantic Fleet), CINCPACFLT (Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet), CINC NorthCOM (Commander in Chief of the US Northern Command), etc...

SO, it appears "CINC" does mean "Commander in Chief" (I looked up several citations in WIKIPEDIA and elsewhere) but it only rarely refers to the US President (and then it must be used alone, ie, CINC)... but just because it's used alone does not mean that it is referring to the President. Does that make any sense?
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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:33 am

Cincinnatus was a Roman general who was given, as was authorized by their laws, given dictatorial powers for the sake of defending the Republic. Normally, these powers were given only temporarily in times of crisis and the dictator was expected to step down after the crisis was over. Having successfully defended the Republic however, Cincinnatus was offered the title of dictator for life by a thankful Roman senate. However, it what defines Cincinnatus as one of the great partrons of the Republic, he turned it down, and retired to a life as a farmer.

I believe that here it does indeed refer to Chamrajnagar, who is in control of the most impressive military force of all humanity, and who was expected to relinquish his post after the Bugger threat was over, but finds himself unready for a number of reasons.
"But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is."
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Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:48 am

Janus, you're forgetting:
So, Mr. Wonderboy Hegemon, now that you're no longer Demosthenes of "freeamerica.org", is there any good reason why my telling you what I see from the sky wouldn't be treason?


As Charmanagar is clearly on the side of the Hegemony- or, at least, at the side of the U.S. who is funding the I.F.- it wouldn't be treason to give him information.
Still, it's as much a good guess as everyone's, and probably a better one than the rest, due to explaining the use of unready (to become) cincinnatus.
Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cavefish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!

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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:20 am

I'm forgetting the exact political climate at the time of these e-mails, but if I recall correctly, the IF was fairly divorced from any earth-bound power at this time, it's only objective being to not interfere with the goings-on of earth as its all-encompassing intel and military might could be far too easily misued and leave the Earth undefended from another possible attack from another species. The IF is arguably as much a nation unto itself as any of those involved on Earth.

As such, Chamrajnagar would indeed be committing treason against the IF itself by feeding Peter info that would give him a leg-up during the conflict on Earth.

While the personal loyalties of officers like Graff and Dimak is disputable, Chamrajnagar never came across to me as having any conviction in mind other than protecting the Earth both from alien threats and Earth-borne threats that sought to misuse the IF and it's progeny, i.e. Ender, his jeesh, and the other children, which is why he's mildly hostile to many of Earth's leaders throughout the books, since he's in a catch-22 between protecting the Battle School children and not interfering with Earth.
"But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is."
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Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:21 pm

Janus%TheDoorman wrote:I'm forgetting the exact political climate at the time of these e-mails, but if I recall correctly, the IF was fairly divorced from any earth-bound power at this time, it's only objective being to not interfere with the goings-on of earth as its all-encompassing intel and military might could be far too easily misued and leave the Earth undefended from another possible attack from another species. The IF is arguably as much a nation unto itself as any of those involved on Earth.

As such, Chamrajnagar would indeed be committing treason against the IF itself by feeding Peter info that would give him a leg-up during the conflict on Earth.

While the personal loyalties of officers like Graff and Dimak is disputable, Chamrajnagar never came across to me as having any conviction in mind other than protecting the Earth both from alien threats and Earth-borne threats that sought to misuse the IF and it's progeny, i.e. Ender, his jeesh, and the other children, which is why he's mildly hostile to many of Earth's leaders throughout the books, since he's in a catch-22 between protecting the Battle School children and not interfering with Earth.


Well, as long as we don't recieve a different answer from OSC itself, you managed to convince me that it's Chamrajnagar, all right, as it is the most probable option so far, and the only minor character possible in the books.
However, why is he using the address of unready%cincinnatus, and not his regular address, then? And also, if it were Chamrajnagar, it would seem that he has given information to Peter in the past, while Peter was still incognito as Demosthenes- and that's hard to believe: a millitary leader giving away info to a political writer? And a demagogue one, non-the-less?
Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cavefish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!

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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:46 pm

Because C-... I'm not even gonna try spelling his name again, knew from the start the identity of both Locke and Demosthenes, and as head of the IF had access to more info about Peter than even Peter himself had. He's not using his regular e-mail because he has indeed been feeding info to Peter, and it's only now that Peter's actually taking military, not just literary and political action that he's straying into the area of violating the IF's mandate not to interfere in the conflicts on Earth.

Knowing that, with Ender gone, Peter was the best chance for a lasting peace on Earth, C... probably bet all the tokens on Peter, seing as how his only "flaw" compared to Ender was an inability to rally support to himself, but with Bean and the Hegemony already under his control, it was very nearly a null point.
"But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is."
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Postby Xenofreak » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:23 pm

We have to remember that Peter had alot of connections from back when he was Locke and that this could be an unnamed character that has access to a limited source of information.

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Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:40 am

Janus%TheDoorman wrote:Because C-... I'm not even gonna try spelling his name again, knew from the start the identity of both Locke and Demosthenes, and as head of the IF had access to more info about Peter than even Peter himself had. He's not using his regular e-mail because he has indeed been feeding info to Peter, and it's only now that Peter's actually taking military, not just literary and political action that he's straying into the area of violating the IF's mandate not to interfere in the conflicts on Earth.


Good point, and so far you've convinced me that it's C... However, isn't helping peter with political action sorta interfering with the conflicts on Earth, only in a different way? Thus, everything he has told him so far has
sorta been treason, as well.
Oh, and I don't remember C conversing with Bean in the book by E-Mails, which he outta do by Peter's second E-mail:
Good call. Not safe. Here's what. If there's something I should know because you can't act and I can, deaddrop it to my former cinc at a weblink that will come to you from IComeAnon. He'll know what to do with it. He isn't working for me any more for the same reason you're not helping. But he's still on our side-- and, fyi, I'M still on our side, too.

(I'm just searching for ways to "attack" this question from nearly all possible ways, and because of you, I'm nearly running out...good job)

Also, Xenofreak, it is true that it could be an unnamed character which has access to a limited source of info; however, in nearly all E-Mail conversations in the Shadow series (this one being the one possible exception), one character we already know about is conversing with another character we already know about, both with some relevance to the story (usually big relevance, otherwise they wouldn't show those E-Mails). Thus, the most probable option is that it's Chamrajnagar, and not an unnamed informant we don't know nearly nothing about.
But we mustn't forget that option, as well.
Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cavefish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!

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Different theory

Postby cincinnatus » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:06 pm

I tend to disagree with the idea that Chamrajnagar is the one behind the unready%cincinnatus alias. C- has an email correspondence with Peter at some point in the series, and the tone is very much different from the cincinnatus messages.

unready%cincinnatus seems to be an American, by his access to satellite data and the comments he makes with regards to world politics. I don't know if it's expressed explicitly, but the fact that he worked for the US always seemed rather obvious to me. His tip in Giant with regards to the missile truck that hits Carlotta's plane is the most telling characterization, if memory serves.

Whether it's possible to pin an exact character on him is something I've never resolved. I had left it as a mystery, attributing his rather useful presence to a success of Peter's networking skills. If anyone can find an American Battle Schooler who fits the description, they'd be a likely candidate. Otherwise, unready%cincinnatus may simply be a faceless contributor.

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Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:32 pm

Well, this thread can be locked, as I got the answer from OSC (delivered by his assistant) in the following mail:

Gmail wrote:
In a message dated 10/23/2007 11:39:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, XXXXXXX@gmail.com writes:
In the PhiloticWeb.net forums, we have had an ungoing discussion about the identity of one particular E-Mail sender from Shadow Puppets, who converses with Peter in chapter 7, "The Human Race" (or something like that). You can read the discussion here: http://www.philoticweb.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=943

My question, and the source of debate in the topic, is who is unready%cincinnatus@anon.set?

Dear XXXX,

Thanks for your question. I asked OSC, he said: "Just a person - one of many with whom Peter maintained correspondence."

Hope that helps! Thanks again for writing.

Sincerely,

Kathleen Bellamy
Assistant to OSC


Well, guess that solves it- no Chamrajnagar, just an ordinary person. Kinda disappointing, though.
Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cavefish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!

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Postby Han Fei-Tzu » Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:23 pm

please can anyone recall the page or chapter where Bean actually agrees to have Petra's babies in Shadow Puppets?? Or any other time where Bean hurts Petra in any way by his decisions in SP or SOTG? its for a research paper due wednesday

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Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:59 am

I believe Bean agrees to have Petra's babies near the end of chapter 7- The Human Race, and I don't know if Bean ever hurt Petra by his decisions, but if so, it'd probably be when he [SPOILER=End of SOTG]faked his death and left Petra with their children who don't have Anton's Key turned inside them, and took the rest to live on a spaceship, searching/waiting for the cure to their disease.[/SPOILER]
Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cavefish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:54 am

Please don't feed the lazy kids who won't do their own homework.
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Postby Eddie Pinz » Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:38 am

What good is being a part of a forum if you can't get other members to do your work for you???

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:31 am

Hm. Touché.
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Postby Han Fei-Tzu » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:08 pm

thank you for your help

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Re: A question about Shadow Puppets

Postby CincinnatusNovus » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:42 pm

UnreadyCincinnatus is mentioned in the book as a member of the US satellite intelligence service (pg 358 of Shadow of the Hegemon.)

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Re: A question about Shadow Puppets

Postby alcapownd » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:06 pm

This may not be the best theory out there, but it does have some credence. It is possible that unreadycincinnatus is actually peters parents or maybe even just john paul specifically. We all know OSC loves comparing the children in his stories to great past world leaders and villians alike. So the reference to an unready Cincinnatus may not so much be an identity for the user as a message for peter. its also very easy to argue that john paul and Theresa wiggin did quite a few things to help peter without him knowing. this excerpt from shadow of the Hegemon shows john paul doing exactly that.... "Perhaps that was because John Paul was a good counterbalance to Peter-John Paul could be useful to him. Where Peter kept a hundred things going at once, juggling all his projects and doing none of them perfectly, John Paul was a man who had to dot every I, cross every t. So without exactly telling anyone what his job was, John Paul kept close watch on everything Peter was doing and followed through on things so they actually got done. Where Peter assumed that underlings would understand his purpose and adapt. John Paul knew that they would misunderstand everything, and spelled it out for them, followed through to make sure things happened just right." as for the information, john could have his own informant or maybe even some limited access through his not so important government job. It could be that they think Peter would be the Proper "Cincinnatus" but is still unready because he has yet to want the hegemony to make the world better, but is still wanting it for personal gain. Doing the things they do, Peters Parents helped Keep Him on the correct path and even threw misdirection's at him to keep themselves inconspicuous in their meddling. If peter had found out information was coming from his parents he would be liable to disregard that, for at the time he did not see them as intelligent enough to have an opinion. I didn't ever think this was john paul until I Started doing some research after reading this post. so its a fairly untested theory, but I like it


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