What's your favourite Ender Saga book?

Discuss all things pertaining to the EnderVerse milieu.

Favourite?

Ender's Game
41
30%
Speaker for the Dead
36
26%
Xenocide
8
6%
Children of the Mind
16
12%
Ender's Shadow
16
12%
Shadow of the Hegemon
5
4%
Shadow Puppets
3
2%
Shadow of the Giant
11
8%
 
Total votes: 136

Deep_Thought42
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Postby Deep_Thought42 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:38 pm

Jebus wrote:
Kill Devil Hill wrote:
Gravity Defier wrote:
waffleman wrote: Bean's view does not introduce us as much as brings a whole new angle to the story of Ender and his biggest moment in life.


No. It completely retcons the entire character of Ender, making him into some helpless idiot who gets by on Bean's behind the scenes intelligence. More or less.


Which is partly the reason I rank ES so low in my standings. Most of Ender's huge accomplishments were, apparently, only because of some action Bean takes.


I think you're gonna fit in well here.


You don't think Ender could have successfully commanded an army of vets?

The revelations about Bean in ES doesn't really diminish Ender as a hero. For one thing, Andrew Wiggin didn't have to listen to Bean, but he would be an idiot not to listen. So Ender should get credit for that. Second, I believe Bean dreaded the idea of taking Ender's place at Command School because he didn't think he could do what Ender did. Third, and most importantly, Bean's intelligence , and possibly his place in Battle School,was the result of genetic manipulation, while Ender's was God-given.

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Postby Jebus » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:58 pm

Deep_Thought42 wrote:
You don't think Ender could have successfully commanded an army of vets?


I don't? I think I do, in fact I'm sure of it.

The revelations about Bean in ES doesn't really diminish Ender as a hero. For one thing, Andrew Wiggin didn't have to listen to Bean, but he would be an idiot not to listen. So Ender should get credit for that.


Ah yes, Ender is the great hero of the series for his superior listening abilities.


Second, I believe Bean dreaded the idea of taking Ender's place at Command School because he didn't think he could do what Ender did.


I think you've misunderstood the argument. No one is claiming Bean is better than Ender as a leader.

Third, and most importantly, Bean's intelligence , and possibly his place in Battle School,was the result of genetic manipulation, while Ender's was God-given.


So what? Rhetorical advice: end on a stronger point.

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Postby Deep_Thought42 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:54 am

Jebus wrote:
Deep_Thought42 wrote:
You don't think Ender could have successfully commanded an army of vets?


I don't? I think I do, in fact I'm sure of it.

The revelations about Bean in ES doesn't really diminish Ender as a hero. For one thing, Andrew Wiggin didn't have to listen to Bean, but he would be an idiot not to listen. So Ender should get credit for that.


Ah yes, Ender is the great hero of the series for his superior listening abilities.


Second, I believe Bean dreaded the idea of taking Ender's place at Command School because he didn't think he could do what Ender did.



I think you've misunderstood the argument. No one is claiming Bean is better than Ender as a leader.

Third, and most importantly, Bean's intelligence , and possibly his place in Battle School,was the result of genetic manipulation, while Ender's was God-given.


So what? Rhetorical advice: end on a stronger point.



Bean pretty much said he could never do what it took to defeat the Formics. He didn't want to be the hero, and if events had transpired differently, and Bean had been in charge, Earth may of lost. It's Bean's reluctance to take command that makes Ender the Hero of the Third Formic War.

Remember in Shadow Puppets, the Chinese military bureaucracy would not listen to Han Tzu, and it ultimately cost them India? Part of being a great leader is listening to those under you. I guess this has nothing to do with the main argument, so feel free to ignore it.

Would it mean as much to the people if Bean had saved them and it was found out he had a genetic "defect"? Sure, the people directly under the threat of the Formics would have no problem with Bean being the way he is, but chances are history would not look kindly upon him.

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Postby Jebus » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:58 am

I think you've misunderstood the argument. No one is claiming Bean is better than Ender as a leader.


Also:

Remember in Shadow Puppets, the Chinese military bureaucracy would not listen to Han Tzu, and it ultimately cost them India? Part of being a great leader is listening to those under you. I guess this has nothing to do with the main argument, so feel free to ignore it.


Actually, it's the most relevant part of what you're saying. There's an argument to be made that Ender gains credit for what Bean did for successfully delegating responsibilities to an extremely smart person. However, many of the things Bean did that alter events which are originally credited to Ender as incredible achievements in EG are done without Ender ever knowing about it. Also, in ES it turns out Ender wasn't smart enough to realise Bean's true talents as he underestimated him when they got to Command School.

Sure, the people directly under the threat of the Formics would have no problem with Bean being the way he is, but chances are history would not look kindly upon him.


History would have been as unkind to him as it was to Ender; if Bean achieved victory through the same means. I don't see why a genetically enhanced intelligence would alter people's perception in favour or against a person who had supposedly saved the planet but wiped out an entire alien species to do so. There's enough to love or hate in that, the intelligence thing is minor in comparison.

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Postby Deep_Thought42 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:13 am

Jebus wrote:
Deep_Thought42 wrote:
You don't think Ender could have successfully commanded an army of vets?


I don't? I think I do, in fact I'm sure of it.

The revelations about Bean in ES doesn't really diminish Ender as a hero. For one thing, Andrew Wiggin didn't have to listen to Bean, but he would be an idiot not to listen. So Ender should get credit for that.


Ah yes, Ender is the great hero of the series for his superior listening abilities.


Second, I believe Bean dreaded the idea of taking Ender's place at Command School because he didn't think he could do what Ender did.



I think you've misunderstood the argument. No one is claiming Bean is better than Ender as a leader.

Third, and most importantly, Bean's intelligence , and possibly his place in Battle School,was the result of genetic manipulation, while Ender's was God-given.


So what? Rhetorical advice: end on a stronger point.



Bean pretty much said he could never do what it took to defeat the Formics. He didn't want to be the hero, and if events had transpired differently, and Bean had been in charge, Earth may of lost. It's Bean's reluctance to take command that makes Ender the Hero of the Third Formic War.

Remember in Shadow Puppets, the Chinese military bureaucracy would not listen to Han Tzu, and it ultimately cost them India? Part of being a great leader is listening to those under you. I guess this has nothing to do with the main argument, so feel free to ignore it.

Would it mean as much to the people if Bean had saved them and it was found out he had a genetic "defect"? Sure, the people directly under the threat of the Formics would have no problem with Bean being the way he is, but chances are history would not look kindly upon him.

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Postby Jebus » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:14 am

Yes, you mentioned that.

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Postby Deep_Thought42 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:07 pm

I suppose I should scrub my original argument and start all over again. Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

I guess I should be saying at least for me, Andrew Wiggin is still the hero he was in Ender's Game, though almost xenocide is not a very heroic action, is it?

I can see, however, someone thinking it does, not necessarily in regards to the events that transpired on Eros. If those earthside knew Ender was just responding to events set in motion by someone else, especially a little pipsqueak from the streets of Rotterdam, it might make him a little less heroic. Readers may feel the same way.

As for Anton's Key, I still believe history would not be kind to Delphiki if they knew about his genetic abnormality. It's like Andrew Wiggin versus Ender the Xenocide. At first, the people of Earth honored him as a hero, the boy who defeated the Buggers, but 3,000 years later, history has painted him as a monster. The same thing would have happened to Bean. He's be painted as a monster, a genetic aberration that did not deserve to live.

I love Julian Delphiki, but for me, Ender's actions are what makes him a hero, even if the results were less than heroic. Bean was sort of like Ariadne or Medea (without the going crazy part) helping the hero finish his quest.

I'm glad Bean got the Shadow Saga.

I'm looking forward to you picking apart my argument, as I'm sure you will.
I must admit, this debate is fun. Thank you.

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Xenocide

Postby piers_styx » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:34 pm

I actually REALLY love this book.
"The consolations of philosophy are many, but never enough." -Mazer Rackham, pg. 161, The Shadow of The Giant

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Re: What's your favourite Ender Saga book?

Postby Lemonade Ice Queen » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:11 pm

For me, it has to be Ender's Game. It has a sort of raw emotion the other books lack.

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Re: What's your favourite Ender Saga book?

Postby empathicide » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:33 pm

I love the Shadow of the Giant because I find Card's future history really intriguing. I love the way he ties what he knows about those cultures and political situations all together, adds a sprinkle of whatthefuck every once in a while, and then just lets it play out in the context of the characters of the book. Shadow of the Giant wraps up that whole aspect of the series, but also contains one of the most heartbreaking farewells I've ever read: Bean leaving the letter to Petra with Ramon and then Peter reading it to her later touched me in a way few scenes ever have.

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Re:

Postby TerresaWiggin » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:25 pm

Virlomi wrote:
anonshadow wrote:
Virlomi wrote:I feel like I'm in an AA meeting. :)

Hurrah for ES Lovers Not-So-Anonymous! (ESLNSA?)


We are alone on an island, with dozens of EG lovers swimming around us.

But, you see, we sided with Bean. Bean is smarter. Therefore, we are smarter than them and will find a way out of this predicament.

Such are the consequences of being out of the closet.


You and me, Elena, we have to stick together in this mad, mad world of narrow-minded EG lovers.


Just wanted to add my support as another Bean lover.
"when a school counselor called her in to tell her that the school administration was growing concerned about the fact that Petra seemed to be associating with the antisocial element in the school, she knew that she was truly at home in Maralik."

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Re: What's your favourite Ender Saga book?

Postby Sharpe » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:28 pm

It has to be EG.

After that it is either Exile, or Speaker. I'm not sure which.

And I really enjoy the Shadow books, but I feel that I read them for fun, while I want something more when I read an Ender book

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Re: What's your favourite Ender Saga book?

Postby tauist » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:07 pm

Erm... I have to say I loved ES the most, even though EG came in a close second... And please don't kill me, but I have to say that Bean the leguminote was also my favorite character... I should probably go into hiding right now. :chicken: <don't kill me Ender lovers. Please.>


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