Ender vs. Peter

Discuss all things pertaining to the EnderVerse milieu.
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Ender vs. Peter

Postby peterlocke123 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:41 pm

If Peter were in Ender's position, would Peter have killed Stilson and Bonzo? Would Peter have dealt with Bernard the same way as Ender?

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Postby eriador » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:07 am

This thread was inspired by an IM conversation peterlocke and I had. You can read a (lightly edited for spelling, etc.) transcript here.

Anyway, we (kinda) come to the conclusion that peter would have killed both of them, but not in the same way that Ender did. Whereas Ender was cool and collected in both cases, Peter would be much less restrained, his anger would be hot. As we said:
9:49:15 PM cowpoodle003: anyway, peter would have killed stilson
9:49:24 PM cowpoodle003: but he would have done it in a fit of rage
9:49:30 PM cowpoodle003: much messier
9:49:45 PM cowpoodle003: same with bonzo
9:49:56 PM cowpoodle003: peter's anger would have been hot
9:49:58 PM peterlocke123: like bonzo's
9:49:58 PM cowpoodle003: so even if he did win
9:50:03 PM cowpoodle003: it would be much messier

We also bring up the idea of the qualities of Peter and Val in Ender that make Ender "the one." The idea that Ender has Peter's drive and anger but also Val's charisma and love/niceness, along with great intelligence seems pretty relevant. Anyway, read the transcript to get the whole picture.


I'm not entirely sure if I'm speaking for peterlocke in this post and he has some good points about Bernard and what Peter would have done that I don't know about, but could be interesting.

P.S. I was also wondering about Bean. His childhood is extremely cutthroat and I wonder how his attitude compares to that of Ender, Peter and Val, but we didn't have a chance to discuss that. What would any of the four done in either Bean's or Ender's place?

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Postby shadow_gangsta » Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:01 pm

bean should have kileld achilles :twisted: :evil:

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Postby Young Val » Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:47 pm

This thread was inspired by an IM conversation peterlocke and I had. You can read a (lightly edited for spelling, etc.) transcript here.

Anyway, we (kinda) come to the conclusion that peter would have killed both of them, but not in the same way that Ender did. Whereas Ender was cool and collected in both cases, Peter would be much less restrained, his anger would be hot. As we said:
9:49:15 PM cowpoodle003: anyway, peter would have killed stilson
9:49:24 PM cowpoodle003: but he would have done it in a fit of rage
9:49:30 PM cowpoodle003: much messier
9:49:45 PM cowpoodle003: same with bonzo
9:49:56 PM cowpoodle003: peter's anger would have been hot
9:49:58 PM peterlocke123: like bonzo's
9:49:58 PM cowpoodle003: so even if he did win
9:50:03 PM cowpoodle003: it would be much messier

We also bring up the idea of the qualities of Peter and Val in Ender that make Ender "the one." The idea that Ender has Peter's drive and anger but also Val's charisma and love/niceness, along with great intelligence seems pretty relevant. Anyway, read the transcript to get the whole picture.


I'm not entirely sure if I'm speaking for peterlocke in this post and he has some good points about Bernard and what Peter would have done that I don't know about, but could be interesting.

P.S. I was also wondering about Bean. His childhood is extremely cutthroat and I wonder how his attitude compares to that of Ender, Peter and Val, but we didn't have a chance to discuss that. What would any of the four done in either Bean's or Ender's place?
...A few years ago, Valentine would have been terrified at Peter's threats. Now, though, she was not so afraid. Not that she doubted that he was capable of killing her. She couldn't think of anything so terrible that she didn't believe Peter might do it. She also knew, though, that Peter was not insane, not in the sense that he wasn't in control of himself. He was in better control of himself than anyone she knew. Except perhaps herself. Peter could delay any desire as long as he needed to; he could conceal any emotion. And so Valentine knew that he would never hurt her in a fit of rage. He would only do it if the advantages outweighed the risks. And they did not. In a way, she actually preferred Peter to other people because of this. He always, always acted out of intelligent self-interest. And so, to keep herself safe, all she had to do was make sure it was more in Peter's interest to keep her alive than to have her dead. pg 125 Ender's Game, Orson Scott Card

based on this passage of the book, i must disagree entirely with your quoted assessment of Peter. i haven't yet read the "transcript" of your conversation, but i might have more to add after i've done so.
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Postby eriador » Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:12 pm

so you think that peter's anger would be completely controled?

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Postby Young Val » Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:16 pm

so you think that peter's anger would be completely controled?

yes. i think Card makes that very clear in the passage i quoted. not that he wouldn't kill someone, although (my memory of the shadow series is somewhat faulty) HAS he ever killed anyone? regardless. i believe he'd do what he had to do. but it a completely rational manner. (yes, in the shadow series he's dumbed down quite a bit, which irks me, but since you're talking about events strictly in EG, we'll stick to EG canon).

but i think it's quite clear that Peter does not act in rage. he might act ON rage, at a later time when all of the variables are in his favor. but he would never fly into a passion and kill someone.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
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I'm sick of waiting
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ringing joyful and triumphant

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Postby eriador » Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:23 pm

One thing, it says "A few years ago, Valentine would have been terrified at Peter's threats." Doesn't that mean that when Peter was the age that Ender was at when he killed Stilson (and maybe Bonzo, I don't know exactly when this was said) he would not have been so restrained?

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Postby Young Val » Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:35 pm

no, I believe this references Valentine's clearer understanding as she grows older. a reread of the early scenes between the three of them supports this.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
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I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

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Postby eriador » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:57 am

I still think that Peter would have killed Stilson. It just seems that because Ender has the same traits as Peter, they would act in a similar way. Maybe I'm wrong about how it would happen, but I think that it would happen nonetheless.

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Postby Jayelle » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:33 am

You guys are forgetting that this point is entirely moot. Peter wouldn't have to kill Stilson. The reason Ender killed him is that he was making fun of him and ganging up on him. Peter would never let that happen in the first place.
There is a part in EG where it talks about how Peter "Never hit them, but he tortured them just the same. Found what they were most ashamed of and told it to the person whose respect they most wanted. Found what they most feared and made sure they faced it often" (pg. 146 in my edition)

Peter would never even have a schoolyard bully. Everyone in school would be too intimidated by him to tease him the way they teased Ender.
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Postby puppets » Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:48 am

Not people like Valentine. Not Valentine specificaly, but there would be people in battle school. I don't think Bean would have warmed up to Peter the way he did with Ender when he was younger. Plus Peter would have seen Bean as a possible threat and would of made enemies with him instead. The point is he wouldnt have to fight anyone, but he wouldnt win everyone over or intimidate everyone.
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Postby Brandizz » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:45 pm

I have to completely disagree when people say that, had Peter been in the situations Ender would have been in, Peter would have been "messier." The reason I disagree is because of what Mazer Rackham told Peter in Shadow of the Giant - "nobody has ever called you reckless, have they? And your parents would have known that was a lie, because they could have seen what a calculating little bastard you were, even at the age of seven." (262)

Additionally, we learn from that same section that the reason Peter was rejected from Battle School was not because he was too aggressive - "It's impossible to be too aggressive for Battle School . . . you weren't what we wanted . . . because people don't love you. Sorry, but it's true. You'ren ot warm. You don't inspire devotion." Or in other words, Peter doesn't "love." We know from EG that - “In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him.”

This is how Ender utterly destroyed his enemies - it's how he was able to take on the much larger and more-formidable Stilson and Bonzo (not to mention the Formics). He was able to love.

I don't believe that, had the situations played out the same in both cases, Peter would have been able to take on Bonzo, Stilson, or even the Formics. I agree he would have been a great commander UNDER someone like Ender (as it says in SotG) but definately not someone who was able to fill Ender's shoes. In any circumstance.

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Postby Fish Tank » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:43 am

I have to agree with Young Val. It seems clear that Peter is only the monster we see him as in Ender's Game because that is how 5 year old Ender saw him. And because of that I don't think he would kill Stilson. In fact I don't think he has what it takes to kill the way Ender had.

The last few chapters of "Shadow of the Giant" tells us a lot about Peter.

Firstly, he wasnt rejected by the Battle School because he was too aggressive or too reckless. He was rejected because he didn't have the "likeable", quality that Ender had.

Secondly that when Peter and Ender were talking, it showed a lot about Peter's character. A lot more so than Ender's Game.

I personally believe that OSC intended Peter to be what Achilles is. But changed his mind once he wrote Ender's Shadow.

He created a Peter that would be worse than Peter. Therefore Peter didn't have to be so bad.

I think the Hegemon in the history for Speaker for the Dead is far different than the one in the Shadow series.

I had a very big feeling that the Ender's Game Peter would have attained the respect for the Hegemony in a much more brutal manner.

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Postby luminousnerd » Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:05 pm

Since Peter wasn't really aggressive, the I.F. only told him he was, I doubt he would have killed. He probably would have hurt him, then again he might have just let himself be beat up.
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Postby fawkes » Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:13 pm

Since Peter wasn't really aggressive, the I.F. only told him he was, I doubt he would have killed.
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Postby luminousnerd » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:12 pm

Since Peter wasn't really aggressive, the I.F. only told him he was, I doubt he would have killed.
Tell that to the squirrels.
Hmm...good point.

I think it might be a contradiction, then. Peter sure does seem aggressive, and his explanation of aggressiveness towards Ender at the end of SotG sure doesn't account for the poor squirrel :(

That bit about the squirrel was the coolest though.
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Postby Young Val » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:36 am

i enjoy the Shadow series quite a bit, but i'll never stop being disappointed in what Card did to Peter in the latter books. his storyline had so much potential and he's such a brilliantly fascinating character, but as the books went on he sort of deflated... and became incredibly tedious and anti-climactic. what a waste.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
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I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

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Postby luminousnerd » Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:01 am

I agree that Peter was an excellent character, but I think he remained fascinating through the Shadow series, even if not more so. I liked it.
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Postby The Puppetmaster » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:04 pm

Peter probably wouldn't have gotten into the fights at all. He would, instead, have all of the others under his control, and if not that, they would fear him. Imagine, he would control his launch group in like, 10 minutes. Oh no, Peter's coming :shock: , Ruuuuuuuun!!!! It's too late, he's here!!! :twisted: !!!
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Postby peterlocke123 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:22 am

Peter probably wouldn't have gotten into the fights at all. He would, instead, have all of the others under his control, and if not that, they would fear him. Imagine, he would control his launch group in like, 10 minutes. Oh no, Peter's coming :shock: , Ruuuuuuuun!!!! It's too late, he's here!!! :twisted: !!!
That's basically what I think. He wouldn't have to beat anyone up because he'd already have some sort of control over them.
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Postby SuriyawongsARMY » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:09 pm

I think that he would have killed them but not because he knew it had to be done so that they would stop picking on him but because he would have enjoyed.
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Postby peterlocke123 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:53 pm

Welcome to PWeb Suriyawong! Have some gyoza!

I don't know about the reply you made...I don't think that Peter gets that much of a kick out of killing people or torturing them. It's been a while since I last read any of the Enderverse, so I may be wrong. Is there a quote anywhere that shows Peter likes to torture/kill people/things?
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Postby eriador » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:36 pm

squirrels?

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Postby peterlocke123 » Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:31 pm

he was learning. I dont thinkit said anywhere that he liked to do it. He was learning because at school he didn't.
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Postby SuriyawongsARMY » Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:25 pm

Hey peterlocke123 I dont like pockets of dough that are stuffed with minced pork or shrimp and fried its not my type of food but if you recall in enders game there were multiple times where they mentioned peter wanted to kill ender. Once ender leaves it talks about him and valentine and how he would go out to the woods and kill squirrels.
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Postby eriador » Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:52 pm

Not quite. It said that PETER would kill the squirrels. Val just found them, nothing more.

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Postby ollil025 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:37 pm

I definitely think that Peter would still have killed those two of Ender's enemies - however, he would have gone about it way differently! Ender did what he had to do out of self-defense. He was genuinely good inside and just basically wanted people to leave him alone. Peter, on the other hand, would relate more, probably, to the bullies. He was too aggressive and mean-spirited.

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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:14 pm

Caught in precisely the same position at which Ender began the Stilson and Bonzo fights? Peter would have beat them soundly, but not killed them.

Why? Consider the reasons Ender fought so desperately against those two. He did so thinking about the effect it would have on his further relations with people. Stilson he went all out against believing it was the only way to make sure he wouldn't be accosted further down the line, and Bonzo because he knew Bonzo could never be a friend, or an ally, and so beating him to the point that he couldn't fight back was the only option.

Peter, however, is much more of a here and now thinker, the IF themselves said that his major problem was an issue with developing the kind of relationships it's necessary for a commander to maintain. Peter would have seen Stilson as he saw everyone - a tool. He likely would have tried to make Stilson essentially a dog at its master's feet, beating those Peter would prefer not to fight, shielding him against those who would attack him, all out of the fear Peter generated. Or, at least that's how Peter would have likely planned it if the IF didn't take him to Battle School.

In Battle School, again Bonzo, while never a friend or ally, and in truth how often does Peter look for those, had his own army, and likely connections into other armies that Peter could use to being building within Battle School the same type of network he built on Earth as Locke. Peter would have been dictating soldier trades, and had an information network up an running within a month or so, using Bonzo as his proxy.
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Postby Epimetheus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:12 pm

Wasn't Peter's entire character based around how he controlled his baser urges?

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Postby 3nder » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:11 pm

i recon that peter has got some sort of a temper
i also think that he would have killed and burned all the piggies and the mother and father trees in the riot that grego had created but i had a feeling it was going to happen anyway.

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Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:52 am

3nder- you gotta make a new user, no name-changing 'round here, as far as I know.

Anyway, in my opinion, Peter would not kill Stilson, but Bonzo- yes, definitely. He has no reason to kill Stilson; Ender was just thinking ahead, possibly mistaken. Although they picked on Ender, they (the bullies and Stilson) did not pose a large direct threat to him at the time; however, if Peter would've gone through everything Ender did up to the point of colliding with Bonzo (including that infamous Salamander-Dragon battle), Peter would most certainly kill Bonzo, although much before the Shower Fight part- in a much more "Achillian" way.
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Postby PhanaticEnder.Reader » Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:43 am

He has no reason to kill Stilson
peter would have already manipulated every significant figure in his school to make them his allies, so there would be no need for him to kill Stilson

unless in order to gain supremacy in his school situation he had to take out the bully to gain everyone elses trust or something.

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Postby Darth Petra » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:43 am

Yes, I think Peter would have Bonzo. Or tried to. But he wouldn't have the remorse that Ender did, I'm sure.
But Stilson..hmmm. I think Peter might find some way to manipulate Stilson, so that Stilson no longer picked on him.
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Postby Snowrelax » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:54 am

Perhaps if Peter had gone to Battle School.

But if we are referring to the Peter as he is in SotH, SotG, SP, then no. He would have never been lead to such a situation that it led to a physical brawl. He would have had Stilson and Bonzo in a disadvantageous situation and used sufficient leverage to ostracize the two.

If Peter had indeed gone to Battle School, he would no longer be the same Peter. He's still calculating, and would remains so. He would most likely disable the two, not kill, but do so in such a fashion that it would lead outsiders to believe he did not take the initiative, rather he was reactionary and innocent.
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Postby Warmaker » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:09 am

Peter was never fully alert and comprehending in situations of panic or that he didn't plan for. Bonzo would have killed Peter in the showers. Plus Peter would have been bigger than Ender, perhaps as big as Bonzo, so the others would have helped Bonzo subdue Peter.
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