What draws the line between Peter and Achilles?

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What draws the line between Peter and Achilles?

Postby ptr.arkanian » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:14 pm

you cant call achilles 100% evil without second guessing peter wiggin and his motives. essentially, they wanted the same thing. one major difference i would state is that achilles worked by himself and was often a traitor to the people he had promised to help. peter, on the other hand, had an idea and a plan, but did not exacute it himself. the question is: was this smart or is he just a cocky scared little boy who wants to rule the world but not deal with any of the dirty work? the same way you must question achilles. but in many ways, achilles had more guts than peter in the sense that he did do all the "dirty work" himself. what makes achilles evil are the means he used to achieve his goal. then again, peter's actions werent exactly peaceful either. and although he did good by uniting the world under one government, the F.P.E, he also gave himself the highest position possible on earth. therefore, his motives were also selfish. so why is it that achilles is considered evil, but peter is considered a protagonist?
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Postby TheMessenger » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:55 pm

Because Peter said over and over again he was doing it to end all wars/world peace, etc. while Achilles obviously wanted to rule as a dictator or something.

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Postby ptr.arkanian » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:03 pm

but Peter also wanted world power. and once he attained world peace, he put himself in the highest position possible which is exactly what Achilles would have done.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:19 pm

I think Peter placed himself in the highest position because he was the only one available to do it. He had influence from his Locke persona, which no battle school graduate had. He also did not have an overdeveloped ego like Achilles did. (though he was a bit arrogant at times) Achilles used corruption, betrayal, and murder to achieve "world peace" while Peter used persuasion and electoral processes. Peter was the shiz and Achilles was a psychopath. that's the line.
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Postby ptr.arkanian » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:23 pm

i do agree with most of what you were saying. but take into consideration that peters actions werent always peaceful. in many ways, he neglected his use of the hegemony army and bean. the line is thinner than you think.
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What makes Peter a protagonist and Achilles an antagonist?

Postby Suriyawong42 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:05 am

In general they have few differences, and if so minor. You have to realize however that the only thing that defines their protagonism and antagonism is the fact that they're both vying for the same job. Because there's only one opening in that job, they're rivals, essentially enemies. Because the IF is behind Peter, he's the good one, and because Achilles tried to kill Bean, killed Carlotta, and kidnapped Petra, he's the bad guy.
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Postby ptr.arkanian » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:07 am

but heres another question, is the IF necessarily good? after all, they do get their hands involved in alot of things that arent their business. they arent even supposed to get involved with Earth affairs at all. so politically speaking, the IF backing Peter shouldnt have been good at all
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Postby VictoriousHector » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:26 am

Isn't that the point of the Enderverse? Nothing is black and white, there is more grey area then anything else. Peter is good because of the simple fact he has made a few good choices, whereas Achilles has not. Peter does want to be in control, but he also wants to help people, Achilles only wants power and fear.

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Postby ptr.arkanian » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:06 am

true, and i guess the fact that there is such a large grey zone is what makes this book so good...
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Postby Ended » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:07 am

in one of the books, peter says he tried so hard to act good (asking himself "what would Ender do?") that he became good.
and he did unify earth, and he didn't try to cling on to power.

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Postby ptr.arkanian » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:12 am

i dont know if i agree that he didnt try to cling on to power

he did create a fake identity so that he could become a more important, more powerful influence in the world. he also didnt want the world to find out that Locke was really a young american college kid because he was scared of losing power.

after he was elected hegemon of earth and after the FPE was established, he did remain hegemon in the most powerful position on earth until he died. so technically he did keep and hang onto his power.
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Postby Ended » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:44 am

one of the books (the last shadow one?), i think petra says he tried to abdicate 2-3 times, and was asked back each time.

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Postby Arlecchino » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:13 pm

I think the biggest difference (which many have touched on in this topic) is that Peter was the best possible person for the job (and he knew it), which is why he fought for the position. Achilles wanted to be the best possible person for the job, but his mental state kept him from that position.

After reading and re-reading the books I think that Peter would be willing to let someone else take on the role of leader of the world. While Achilles would kill anyone who tried.

Is Peter evil? Sure... but no more so then anyone else. He stepped on a few people to get to where he is could make a difference and personally, I can't think of anyone that would have been able to do what he did and still seem like a nice guy (including Ender, Bean, or any of the other battleschool kids).

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Postby MisterQwerty » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:21 am

As I remember, a huge section of Shadow Puppets was devoted to this very question.
Peter was getting himself the job because, however selfish it may seem, he knew he was the best person on the planet for the job. Achilles, however, wanted it so that he could have power.

Originally, Peter set up Locke and Demosthenes to shape the world into what he wanted it to be; as he grew up, his goal changed, and he decided to make it into a peaceful unified government.

As for his having all the power, in the end of SotG, it goes over how he slowly stripped away the abilities of the Hegemon, giving it to other people, and made it almost purely a figurehead job.

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Postby spanish_rockette » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:07 pm

I agree with MisterQwerty, Peter did set up Locke and Demosthenes to make the world the way HE wanted it to be, but when he grew up some more, the goal changed. Now he wanted a unified government. So I see Peter as bad person, who turned good.

And Achilles, he to me, was just a psychopath, whose hungry for world domination or something.

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Postby JohnLocke » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:05 am

To answer your question ptr.arkanian, there is a HUGE line between Peter and Achilles.

First of all, Achilles was sickened by weakness and murdered anyone who saw him in his weakened state. Sure both Peter and Achilles were searching for power, but Peter mainly just wanted to go down in history like his brother Ender. While Achilles just wanted the position so he could manipulate everyone and everything and have the resources to do it.

Secondly, Peter didn't do the "dirty work" because he was "scared" or it was "strategic". Peter wanted to become powerful using his mind and the influence that he has been building ever since he was a child with his Demosthenes and Locke personas. Achilles would have killed his first born and his mother if it meant he could rule the world.

The biggest difference between Achilles and Peter is simply a conscience.

To be evil is to go through life with no regrets, even if your actions could have had harsh consequences for those around you. Peter's actions ended up saving the political structure of earth.
Achilles' actions almost destroyed it.

If you still think that they are even slightly similar then you might want to reread the book.
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Postby Jgrant » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:41 pm

The answer lies at the end of Shadow Pupets. Peter says he only wants World Peace; he doesn't care who is running it. It's his arrogance that makes him think he is the only one who can run the world.

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Postby Violent_K » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:38 am

I'd have to say its their motives that separate them. Peter is driven by his own selfish needs of wanting to rule the world, thinking he is the only one who can do it. whereas Achilles is driven by revenge, only wanting power so he can get revenge on anyone who has seen him weak, and the world for ignoring him it looks like.


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