Ender vs Bean

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Ender vs Bean

Postby Marlinark » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:48 pm

Honestly I think that Ender is far smarter and more real than Bean for one simple reason.

While bean is great at figuring out things and making things go the way he wants them to. His life seems so directs and in simple terms, he is predictable while Ender is completely spontaneous.

Don't get me wrong I love Bean, have read enders shadow 3 times and listened to the Audio books for the other books.

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Postby wigginboy » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:00 pm

The one thing you have top understand about Bean, which I am sure you do, having read ES so many times, is that Bean was manufactured. He was built to be what he is, he has Anton's Key turned. Ender was shaped, he wasn't made. He was taken from raw form and shaped into what they wanted him to be. I believe that Bean could have done what Ender did, but he was not the first choice for the job because he was needed to monitor Ender and keep him on track. The best thing about Bean's mind is that it is constantly at work, constantly ahead of the situation. This is why he was invaluable as Ender's backup, nbecause if something DID go wrong, Bean would already know how to fix it. There is no question that Ender commands more respect and leads better than Bean. Bean even acknowledges this throughout the Shadow series, that Ender is a natural leader and Bean has to work at it. i think this is alluded to a lot in that series, that in a lot of ways, Ender was better than Bean. I agree with this although Bean and Peter are my favourite characters. I agree that Ender's abilities were natural and borne of his environment and training while Bean's abilities were the result of laboratory fabrication, not natural at all.

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Postby Taft » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:11 am

In a sense, Bean is very much the weaker character for this in my mind. Part of it is a feeling that Card went across that "bridge too far" with him (something the Shadow series did a lot) and part of it is the fact that we got a Bond villain as his opponent, but...yeah.

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Postby Syphon the Sun » Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:32 pm

wigginboy wrote:Bean was manufactured.

So was Ender. Sure, his genes weren't altered by scientists, but there's a reason he was requested in the first place and it wasn't because of the environment he would be born into or the training he would later receive. And there was a reason the IF put John Paul at the university Theresa worked for and placed him in her classes.

The thing is, I guess, that Ender wasn't just a random package that the IF happened to find and shape into what they needed. They worked hard to manufacture what they needed, not unlike Bean's creators.
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Postby Peterlover14 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:22 pm

I think Beans love life was way more interesting the Enders. Ender and Novinha were kinda boring. Bean and Petra had some life to them.

Anyone else agree?
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Postby Glass » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:06 am

Peterlover14 wrote:I think Beans love life was way more interesting the Enders. Ender and Novinha were kinda boring. Bean and Petra had some life to them.

Anyone else agree?


okay yes thank you!!! I've been trying to make this point on other message forums. I don't think there was any love really. Just a common goal, which was rescuing listuania from impeding danger. I think he just saw Novinha and her children as a project that he needed to fix and marriage was the only way he'd get inside the Riberio family.
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Postby bmirheli » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:05 am

It's Bean without a doubt. Ender was always struggling with his own greatness, and trying to deny his genius because it caused him so much grief. Bean on the other hand always knew the cost of his amilities and embraced them whole-heartedly with hardly any room left for despair. And the best part is that, regardless of how he came to be, Bean was still human. He fought to survive in Rotterdam, craved to learn from the teachers what they weren't actually teaching up in battle school, came to love a woman he called his equal, and struggled to bring his children to safety and destroy the one who would cause them harm. I can only hope that i can pull that off for myself, you know, minus the homicidal Belgian.
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Postby human. » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:11 am

Glass-Forgive me if I'm wrong--I haven't read the Speaker series in quite some time--but from what I remember, Ender was already IN Novinha's family. He didn't need marriage to do that. And.. why would she marry him if she didn't trust him with her and her family? But again, it's been a few years, so forgive me if I'm mistaken.

bmirheli-Haha, I'm liking the Bean love, but I think you give him a bit much credit. I wouldn't call what he and Petra had love, but I suppose that's all perspective. I'm not sure Ender struggled with his greatness. He knew that he was being pushed ahead, and the rules were being changed for him. Look at his conversation with Dink Meeker, and his conversation later with Bean. He knew he was the student the teachers--IF, in general--were placing their bets on.

I'm not sure what I think. Depending on which series I read, I fall in love with either Ender or Bean. It just happens. Though, to me it seems like Card is trying to set up Bean to be the best after reading Exile. Ender COULD NOT stop complimenting Bean that entire time. "Bean saved me twice.. blah blah.. Bean was the better strategist.. blah" It got annoying. But Bean was so intelligent.. Not that Ender wasn't.. but it was just really attractive just reading Bean's thoughts. Also, his attitude toward authority was quite charming. But he didn't feel emotions the way Ender did. He wasn't as deep as Ender was. The way Ender gained the trust, the loyalty and the respect of those around him was astonishing.

Personally, Bean seems a lot more approachable than Ender, though.

So, I don't know! But those are my late night thoughts. =]

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Postby perspicacious.emperor » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:26 pm

I just remembered another reason why I didn't like Ender... in EiE, at one point he complained about not having someone smart to talk to. He may not have said that, but I took it that way and became offended by that.

Another point for Bean.

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Postby Sonikku13 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:03 pm

I kind of thought of something. Bean married Petra, but why was it? Was it out of love or out of Petra's desire to get Bean's babies? Or another answer I haven't thought of, I don't have any Shadow books on me, except ES.
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Postby bmirheli » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:01 am

Petra had the subliminal need to have great babies, but they really did love each other
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Postby PetraArkanianDelphiki » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:02 am

Bean was much stronger. He left his wife on Earth to lead a life without him when he knew that she would be dead when and if he ever came back and that he would never love anyone else.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:13 am

Bean is better in every way except that he is less capable to command than Ender because 1. He was, for a while, much shorter than everyone else and 2. Was less likable and Human than Ender was. Bean was the sht but Ender was the one who was able to destroy the Buggers against all odds. Bean survived on the streets of Rotterdam when Ender never could have. (Ender would have been killed with the other clones of Bean in Volescu's Lab).

My decision: Bean is better
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:15 am

Peterlover14 wrote:I think Beans love life was way more interesting the Enders. Ender and Novinha were kinda boring. Bean and Petra had some life to them.

Anyone else agree?


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Postby perspicacious.emperor » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:24 pm

Today I discovered the extent of my loyalty for Bean.

In the end of Hegemon, Bean confesses that he misses Ender. I found myself missing Ender too, so I went to an unsuspecting friend and asked her for a hug. Then I remembered I didn't like Ender all that much and wondered why I missed him in the first place.

Then I realized I missed Ender because Bean did.

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Ender

Postby NewPeter » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:01 pm

I like Ender more because he is more down to earth and the things he did were actually possible (in 200 years from now) while regardless of how smart you are adults will never respect and listen to you the way they did throughout the Shadow series. In fact in the real world when Peter went public as Locke he would've lost all his respect in much the same way Minerva did in South Korea last year.

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Ender vs Bean

Postby haupt014 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:54 pm

I agree that Ender is smarter and faster than Bean. I think Ender might have been treating Bean the way he was in case he found out that he wasn't going to succeed in the training. unbeknown to him that it wasn't ok to fail and that he wouldn't fail.

Now I have only read the first book in the series but I was wondering if anybody would agree that Ender was trying to show the teachers that Bean was nearly as smart and quick witted as he himself was?

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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:25 pm

First off, welcome to PWeb, haupt and NewPeter.

Haupt, because you have not read any book except the first, you must read Ender's Shadow befor you can say anything about Bean.
It is a given that Bean is exponentially more intelligent than anybody in existence, but the question is not who is SMARTER, the question is who is BETTER. Bean is already way smarter than Ender, and he has the test scores to prove it.
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Postby Sonikku13 » Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:41 pm

Bean reminds me of an autistic savant who isn't specialized in one thing, but knows everything, except probably leadership. Ender reminds me of the best an average human can possibly be engineered without turning Anton's key, which would make him lose his leadership skills. So, more intelligence or better leadership ability, that is the question.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:26 pm

Exactly. and I vote intelligence. I don't know why, it's just because I like Bean better I guess.
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Postby human. » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:57 pm

I thought that Bean was a good leader. He wasn't amazing like Ender. But once he had his own men under his command, he became a leader. At first they resented him for being so small and young, but when they saw him doing all the drills and exercises he put them through, they grew to respect him. No, he wasn't Ender. But he still had the ability to lead his men extremely effectively.

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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:08 am

right. he said somewhere in ES that as long as he believed the cause was sufficient, "he was pretty damn good at it"
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Postby Sonikku13 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:03 am

I think I look at things too extremely then. Yes, Ender was smart, but Bean was smarter. Yes, Bean was good at leadership, but in my opinion, Ender was better. And autistic people don't have great social skills, in order to function in society, they have to learn them either themselves (before the 1980s, which would be difficult) or in a special ed environment (after the 1980s, it was really brought to the forefront in the 1980s). Because Anton's key is on that gateway, as stated in ES, that results in him having a hard time leading people, it didn't come naturally to him. However, most autistic people have superior intellects to other people, but my source for that is my interpersonal skills class because of being on the autism spectrum. My brother, who is also on the autism spectrum, is dominating at math team, he finished 1st in the 9th grade math league this year... missing only one question. So it's fairly obvious Bean is smarter. In order for Bean to learn how to lead, he had to learn from Ender, or learn by himself. And that results in him being able to lead effectively in the Shadow series.
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Postby perspicacious.emperor » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:58 pm

Now I'm thinking it shouldn't be "who is better" but "who do you like better". Otherwise we'd bite each other's head off.

"Bean'd survive on a stranded island better than Ender!"

"Ender would get all the other castaways to serve him! And he wouldn't even have to lift a finger!"

"What if there aren't any castaways, huh? Besides, Bean is smart enough not to get stranded on an island in the first place!"

Yes yes, Ender is leader and Bean is smart. Somedays the rabbit wins and somedays the turtle wins.

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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:10 pm

I don't remember a turtle army? lol

eh. Bean is better, I don't care what you all say. Jk. But Bean is still better.
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Postby Sonikku13 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:13 pm

Ho! Ender is better! He taught Bean how to lead!

It's always gonna be "he said this" while "she said that." Agree to disagree?
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Postby perspicacious.emperor » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:20 pm

I don't remember a turtle army? lol


Think simpler. Like Aesop.

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Postby ptr.arkanian » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:59 am

i say bean all the way.

he might have been second in command to Ender, but Bean was the one who gave Ender the confidence to continue on during the "exams". also, Bean was the only one who figured out "the game". He was smart enough to understand what the teachers were thinking and yet he was also smart enough not to tell the kids what the adults were planning. like Ender, he saw that the adults were trying to put the kids against eachother. But unlike Ender, he did not try to mess with this system because he also understood what the adults were trying to do. Also, Bean never needed a break. both Ender and Bean were pushed as hard as they could be pushed while at battleschool. Ender got to go back to Earth and take a few months off to cool down because he had reached his breaking point and he couldnt work anymore. Bean didnt have a breaking point. he went strait to tactical school and then command school and it was all a breeze for him. Bean also did not deal with the identity issues Ender dealt with. Ender was always fighting with his inner self and he has security problems about becoming like his brother. Bean knew who he was, he knew he was a genius, he knew his enemies and his friends, and he knew exactly what he was supposed to do in any given situation.

this is why i believe bean is the better of the two characters.
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Re: Ender vs Bean

Postby Lemonade Ice Queen » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:50 pm

I don't get why people feel the need to pit the two characters against each other. Their just different. Some people find Ender more believable, some Bean. In the end, it comes down to who you like better.

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Re: Ender vs Bean

Postby Mich » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:39 pm

Lemonade Ice Queen wrote:I don't get why people feel the need to pit the two characters against each other. Their just different. Some people find Ender more believable, some Bean. In the end, it comes down to who you like better.

Haha, welcome to my response to this age-old debate.
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Re: Ender vs Bean

Postby Absalom » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:30 pm

Hi, new to the forum, but loving it already!

For me, it's bean. Although there is more of a warmth with Ender, a purity of spirit, Bean has that quality in him too, it's just more obscured because of his past growing up on the streets of Rotterdam. Bean has to overcome the false notion that everything he does is purely for his own survival, something which he faces and overcomes in the shadow series, with the help of sister Carlotta, and Petra. I think this ends up making him more human than ender in a way. Everything ender does is for his own survival too, but he never really overcomes this, whereas Bean does.

That said, with Ender you see the cracks, the pressures that cause him to stumble but never totally fall, and its something you can relate to. His darkness and struggle with guilt, family etc are things we can more readily identify with. I can almost say I like Ender more than anyone, but i just keep coming back to that legume who was the shadow in enders background, working harder than them all, yet unseen, unacknowledged. And I think.......Wow.

Another thing. Ender and Bean both make you fall in love with them, but in different ways, neh?

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Re:

Postby OSCjunkie » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:01 am

Peterlover14 wrote:I think Beans love life was way more interesting the Enders. Ender and Novinha were kinda boring. Bean and Petra had some life to them.

Anyone else agree?

I don't know. All the talk about wanting to mate with Bean for his genes kinda put a damper on the romance angle. Not once when I was dating my wife did I think, "I bet her genes give my offspring the greatest chance to thrive." I've never seen the Hallmark card for that. It felt too much like an arranged marriage that only ended well because eventually they developed feelings.
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Re: Ender vs Bean

Postby candygirl103 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:26 am

Ender all the way!

Did everybody forget that the Hive Queen was messing with Ender's head?? Thats the only reason Ender "broke". Ender never did anything just thinking about himself, like Bean. Ender "changed" and save 2 the worlds and restore the Buggers... He felt in love with Novinha because he identify his pain on her from the first "video"... And OSC atention to Bean is because of a personal interest of him, something in his personal life makes him want Bean to be the best, because he "needs" it. The only reason Bean became a good leader was copying Ender, and most of the most important decision were based on. "what would Ender do?"

Hands down for Ender, he was a philantropist... Bean was a survivor...

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Re: Ender vs Bean

Postby Crazy Sam » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:24 pm

This is a question I’ve asked myself a lot. Who is better? The toughest part of this whole question is based off how you are judging them. If we look at their battle school record Ender: Undefeated Bean: 0-5. But that isn’t fair to Bean as he admits that he didn’t want to win at BS. So let’s look after BS at CS, Bean follows Ender’s battle and make sure that he isn’t losing them. He admits that Ender uses the same strategies the he himself would use. In the end though Ender is getting slower and lacking motivation to keep going. Whereas Bean has figured out the ‘games’ and used his amazing intellect to understand more about Ender. In EiE Ender himself admits Bean in smarter.
After CS Ender goes off into space and Bean helps Peter win world peace etc….etc…There is no stage one can create from the books that doesn’t favor Ender. While Ender & Bean agree that Bean is smarter, Bean admits that Ender is the better commander. Who are we to argue with him? It’s Major Anderson who hits it on the head when he is to compile a group of students who would fight for either Bean or Ender equally. There is no such group. Even cherry picking the ones who are most loyal to Bean while preserving extreme ability to command they all would much rather serve under ender. Ender gets them to work together in a way that Bean would never be able to do. They fight for Bean because they respect him. But they fight for Ender because they love him.
If you split up 40 pairs of twins dividing one of each pair into two armies. Then set Ender over one and bean over the other, who would win? I say Ender would win here. The troops would be trained better work together better if under Ender than Bean. Why because Bean does everything in his conscious mind. A lot of Ender’s best work is done without thinking. How he speaks to people, how they follow his example and how he would get them to fight. He would train his toon leaders better as they would be following a commander they could more easily replicate and coordinate with rather than try and be bean who is so above and beyond any of them. There is much more to be said about this but I’m getting tired of typing. Let me know what you think.
Ender in my humble opinion is better. I would much rather serve under him.

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Re: Ender vs Bean

Postby Tiny genius » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:38 pm

wigginboy wrote:I agree that Ender's abilities were natural and borne of his environment and training while Bean's abilities were the result of laboratory fabrication, not natural at all.


Really wigginboy? Do you forget certain passages from ES that easily? Note here my quotations might not be accurate because I'm drawing from memory and not relistening to the book.

Graff said: "Some day he [Nicolei] will be ready for command school"
Sister Carlota thought: "Of course any true sibling of Bean's would have exactly those abilities that would attract the attention of the IF. Bean's alteration simply gave him a far sharper intelligence to bear on abilities he already had".

So Bean was smarter for his genetic alteration yes but his abilities weren't part of that. If Nicolei could go to command school without the alteration then so could have Bean. Bean's abilities are just as natural as Ender's, only his intelligence is enhanced.

I have great admiration for Bean and to hell with the fact that he was genetically altered. I love and look up to him because his intelligence far outstrips mine whereas, however arrogant this might sound, I believe that Ender and I are on nearly equal ground.
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