Children and War

[StephanieR]

I really enjoyed this book. It was entertaining and I could not put it down. However, I did have one major problem with this book. I could not believe what Graff was doing to the children in their school. He was pushing them way too far. When the children were tried and they were having battles against each other twice a day, it was too much. I know that he was just trying to prepare them for the war, but they were only kids and they didn’t receive any formal education. The children were pretty much on their own from day one when they stepped off the spaceship. The “mom” of the rooms or the commanders of the battle armies were just children themselves. Hell, Ender beat up two schoolmates, one on Earth, and one in Battle School, so bad that he killed them and had no repercussions from it. In fact, the first murder against Stilson was what made Graff decide to bring Ender with him in the first place. Then he knew that Ender had the courage to stand up for himself.

Things got even worse when Ender went to Commander School in Eros. Ender did not like it there. There, he was paired against his famous enemy, Mazer Rackham, a commander who won the last Bugger war. I guess I couldn’t even fathom that the superiors would put a young child in these circumstances. I too, was surprised to learn that the battles that Ender was commanding with his fellow students were actually really and that they were conducting the war. I learned the same time that Ender did. Ender never wanted to be a killer. Ender repeatedly said, “I am not Peter, I am not a killer.”

[neo-dragon]

Well, if I'm not mistaken the "moms" were in fact adults although they didn't live with the students. They did also have formal classes as well, although they weren't seen as being nearly as important as the battle room.

The children were put through horrible ordeals (especially Ender) but it really was necessary to win the war.

Welcome to Pweb!

[Tcashon]

Also, remember these are not your normal everyday children - these children (most of them) possessed the intellect to rival most professors on earth. Their subject just happens to be war.

[Jeesh_girl15]

They weren't just there cause they were smart, and their subject was war, they were there cause the teachers thought they would be GOOD at war. They all had a talent for war, didnt they? And they all agreed to go to Battle School, knowing that they would be pushed hard to prepare for it..

[hakly001]

I agree with most that is being said. Yes, the children, namely Ender, were put through a lot, especially for children so young. Remember, these children may have been young but they also thought and acted like adults. Age was the only quality that made them young. Ender knew more about the world, his emotions, and the emotions of others than most adults. I don't justify what the IF's did to them, but considering the circumstances with the Buggers what else could be done.

[Pseudonym]

Although it may not be completely believable to US, the fact is that the novel takes place in the future, where the human race had already been to war twice against an alien species. The scathing of China and the battle in the Belt that Mazer won had untol effects on all of mankind. So although we may not agree with what Graff did to Ender, the Ends certainly justified the Means.

[chromesthesia]

I don't buy that Ender had to be tormented by Graff and company.
Ender was already smart, already as sharp as a samurai sword and they risked breaking him putting him under pressure he didn't even need.
Like just letting him nearly get killed... On two occasions. And pushing him to the end so he had no choice but to kill.
That's kind of a bit warped, but this some later thoughts I had about these books. Combined with earlier ones. I've always thought it was totally wrong to treat him that way and that the ends didn't justify the means.
It's just kind of warped... wrecking young children that way.

[neo-dragon]

I don't buy that Ender had to be tormented by Graff and company.
Ender was already smart, already as sharp as a samurai sword and they risked breaking him putting him under pressure he didn't even need.

Ender was smart alright, but that's not all that he needed to beat the Buggers. He needed to know how to fight back against a stronger opponent with his back against the wall. He needed to know how to find a way to win without ever expecting adults to swoop in and save him when things looked bad. He needed to know how to deal with unfair and frightening scenarios. If he couldn't manage these things, how could Graff trust him to defeat a superior Bugger fleet? There's really no way of telling what parts of Ender's training if any he could have done without and still achieved victory. Graff and Mazer truly cared about Ender and the other children. I think that they were no harder on them than they felt they had to be in order to ensure that they were capable of winning the war.

[chromesthesia]

Dude was already BORN knowing how to do that. When that bully kept picking on him and there was no one to help, he used force that was a bit... harsh to get him to...
back down...
He absolutely did not need to be pushed and manipulated the way he was by Graff and company. Neither did the other children. They nearly broke Ender and wore him out.

Plus he was definitely traumatized for life.

[neo-dragon]

That very example was one of Graff's manipulations. He knew that Ender would be attacked once his monitor was gone. Ender may have had a very strong survival instinct from the start but I don't know if he could have won the war if he hadn't been shaped by the tough situations he faced in Battle School. In any case one traumatized individual seems a small price to pay to ensure the survival of the human race.

[chromesthesia]

I don't agree... But you seem to like Boondocks so that's cool.
The thing is. THE HUMAN SPECIES WASN'T EVEN BEING THREATENED BY THE BUGGERS ANYMORE. The buggers just allowed themselves to get wiped out except for one queen. They had realized humans were not a threat to them and that they were individuals so they traumatized Ender for life for nothing really...

[neo-dragon]

The thing is. THE HUMAN SPECIES WASN'T EVEN BEING THREATENED BY THE BUGGERS ANYMORE. The buggers just allowed themselves to get wiped out except for one queen. They had realized humans were not a threat to them and that they were individuals so they traumatized Ender for life for nothing really...

But how could Graff and the others have possibly known that at the time? It's easy to criticize decisions after you have new information that wasn't known at the time when the decisions were being made.

You don't really think that they should have planned their war strategy based on the idea that a force which launched two unprovoked attacks already might have had a change of heart.

[Pseudonym]

THE HUMAN SPECIES WASN'T EVEN BEING THREATENED BY THE BUGGERS ANYMORE. The buggers just allowed themselves to get wiped out except for one queen. They had realized humans were not a threat to them and that they were individuals so they traumatized Ender for life for nothing really...

are you kidding me? If a guy comes up to you, can't speak a word of whatever your language is (you have no languages in common) and he punches you in the face and saws off your right arm (like the scathing of china in the book per se). You somehow manage to fend him off. Days later, he comes back and puts a shotgun to your forehead, again, somehow you manage to fend him off (kick to the groin?) Then, a few days later, he comes back again, yet this time, you have a handgun strapped to your hip. How many people would hesitate at least drawing your weapon, in this situation?

[Jeesh_girl15]

Well duhr... That's the way most people would react. It's the way we think. We want to eliminate anything that threatens us, even if it doesn't truly do so.

And the humans on Earth didn't even know that the Buggers might not have been a threat. The poor little humans with not as advanced weapons (having to cheat from the buggers by using their starflight thingy *snicker snicker*) and genius little commanders.... How could they have known about the Buggers other than what they learned from actually battling them (and not much... I think Mazer and Ender were the only ones who figured that the Buggers really WERE Buggers). The Buggers pretty much stayed the same during the war they just fought and died, taking a few humans with them.

And if there had already been two wars between you and someone else, would you not want to go after them even if they did leave you alone? Think... these completely alien people come and destroy your home, and kill people (maybe even friends) while doing it. I personally would be Miss I Want To Go Kick Their Ass.

It wouldn't matter if the Buggers weren't a threat. Most people would have probably been to blind with anger or sadness to care. The humans would have killed them anyway... Like Ender did... (though unknowingly, I suppose..)


(I just went back and noticed I was kind of off topic...)

[Person122]

If you think about it, situations very similar to those in Ender's Game are happening at the present. With all those video games featuring killing and other considered objectionable objectives, one might start to question the effect of such games on the psychology of people, specifically in child state where they are at a very impressionable state in their lives. Opponents argue, citing studies and multiple incidents allegedly involving video games, that such games increase overall aggressiveness and possibly leading to violent crime. The only supporting arguments I really found was pretty much "that stuff is BS" or "those people don't know a damn thing about video games". I myself play Halo and so I guess I may be hopelessly violent? Thoughts anyone.

And now for something (not really) completely different, I think because the Buggers were nearly completely alien to the IF, they were not going to take any chances for the extinction of humanity, so they decided to wipe out a whole bugger race as precautionary measures.

[Infinitizer]

I just realized this, but the people running the battle school and the Earth military are trying to do the same thing Ender does when he get's in a fight. They are trying to beat their enemy so bad that the enemy can't fight back. The difference between them is that when Ender kills someone, he has to love his enemy completely, and at that point he understands them well enough to beat them. The battle school, however, just wants to beat the enemy. They don't have any understanding of what the buggers wanted or that they initially came in peace; and that they couldn't communicate and that obviously led to some misunderstanding. It's easy for the two sides to fight, because the buggers don't have a human face the soldiers can identify with, and the humans can't communicate with telepathy the way the buggers can. Basically there is a lack of empathy on both sides.

[Crazy Tom: C Toon]

If you think about it, situations very similar to those in Ender's Game are happening at the present. With all those video games featuring killing and other considered objectionable objectives, one might start to question the effect of such games on the psychology of people, specifically in child state where they are at a very impressionable state in their lives. Opponents argue, citing studies and multiple incidents allegedly involving video games, that such games increase overall aggressiveness and possibly leading to violent crime.

Oh please. Their argument about how video game cause violence really is BS, and the way they make these studies is they figure that well, there is more violence in society. What could cause that? oh well, these violent people played violent video games, so that must be it. That's like saying,"oh, well, all these people who have cancer have eaten carrots. Carrots cause cancer! Lets publish an official study and get lots of money!"

Try not to fall for these Liberal lunatics.

Anyway, read EG again. Right after his brutal fight with Bonso, Ender thinks something to the effect of how now he knew that nobody would ever help him with anything, which was Graff's objective. When Ender comes to the final battle in the Bugger war, he knows what to do and is able to pull off a victory because of the unfair battle which Graff and Andersn gave him, where he faced Griffin and Tiger armies. Go for the gate. And that battle was brutally unfair to Ender because he had fought a battle that morning and had killed Bonso a little later, but that battle was what he needed to win the bugger war.

[Sapphire]

....Hell, Ender beat up two schoolmates, one on Earth, and one in Battle School, so bad that he killed them and had no repercussions from it. In fact, the first murder against Stilson was what made Graff decide to bring Ender with him in the first place. Then he knew that Ender had the courage to stand up for himself....

I think that part of the reason that Graf chose Ender was because he didn't enjoy the harm that he caused. Peter, who Graf had already observed, would have enjoyed and taken pleasure in the pain he caused simply because he caused it. Ender, at six years old, knew that it wasn't right but was determined to get the job done. Part of his encounter with Stilson was influenced, I think, by the stress and shock of having his monitor removed. Knowing for the first time in many years that he was totally on his own influenced his decision. His decision, by the way, was not to murder anyone, but just to make the bullying stop. And to do that, he had to speak a language, if you will, that Stilson would understand.

...They weren't just there cause they were smart, and their subject was war, they were there cause the teachers thought they would be GOOD at war. They all had a talent for war, didnt they?...

I find it hard to believe that any child has an inherent talent for war. I think that all of these children have talent for problem solving and thinking outside the box. It is only through Graf's guidance in Battle School and Command School that makes them good at War. Only Graf's influence that directs their ambitions.

[human.]

I know it's off topic, but I just wanted to say hi, Sapphire! Welcome to Pweb! I'm excited that you're here! =]

[logan.netzer]

I think a large part of being disgusted by the struggles Graf put these kids through is because the reader forgets who these children are. For starters, the students of Battle School are not just your average run of the mill children. They are the best in their cohort group. Also, one commenter made the remark that the students were being placed into battle two times a day. However, this is only the partial truth. It was only Ender and his team that had to go into battle two times in one day. Nobody else had to do this, and the reason is because the staff was trying to prepare Ender for what was coming to him. While the conditions of battle school may seem severe, I think it is important to note that before Ender only one death had occurred which is still tragic but not monumental. Furthermore, if the children were extremely pampered and had pillow fights and gave each other manicures then I do not think that it would make for a very good story. Another thing to remember is that Ender was selected out of countless individuals who were monitored extraordinarily close to make sure that he had what it takes to be a commander. And sure enough what it takes to be a commander involves being able to fight in any number of situations. This being said, it was not because Ender killed Stilson that he was chosen; it was because he rose to the occasion and took care of things without anybody else’s help. The very fact that a six year old boy could kill another boy is a strong indicator that he was very different from the rest of his peers. The reason Ender was placed in a position to fight the Formics was not because he was a young child but because he was the best person for the mission. So while it may seem bizarre that children were used in this fashion an important distinction can be made in that these individuals are by no means ordinary children.

I thought this novel was excellent; my main reason for thinking this is because of the unexpected twists that took place. The best example of this is the idea of the Buggers and the upcoming war with them. In the beginning of the story I did not think much of this but then later on Dink tells Ender that the Bugger war is all fake. This got me thinking that it was indeed true. Aside from this, as the story continues the credibility of Mazer Rackham begins to dwindle. I started to think he actually was not the hero that the earlier parts of the book had suggested. However, later on Mazer Rackham makes an unexpected appearance as Ender’s final teacher before the upcoming war. What happened next was even more unexpected than the previous occurrences. It turned out that the test scenarios Ender thought was training for the war was the actual war itself. The whole time he thought he was preparing when in actuality he was engaging in a full blown war. The reason why I liked this so much was that often times when there is a plot twist the reader can see it coming before it actually happens. Examples of this can be found. With Ender’s Game however, I did not know what to expect and the twist regarding Ender fighting the war without knowing it was as refreshing as it was surprising. Of further surprise in this novel is when Ender encounters the last queen and it is revealed to him that the Formics were never actually going to attack the humans again after realizing they were an intelligent and sentient race of beings.