Why did the Hive Queens group up

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gators41
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Why did the Hive Queens group up

Postby gators41 » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:48 pm

In EIE, Ender contemplates why the Formic Hive Queens grouped up on their home world. Why did they do this? Just to be eliminated at once instead of spreading out?

I believe the answer was alluded to in another book. I have read them all, just cant remember. Did they think that they were incapable of preforming such an act? This is really bugging me (HAHA) He really gets into this question when scouting the new territory for the new colony.

HELP ME PLEASE

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Postby Col. Graff » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:45 pm

That's something I was also wondering about. The only things that come to my mind is that they didn't want to kill the humans now that they knew they were also sentient. They also were trying to create a bridge to Ender. This, of course, creates Jane. And yet these cannot be the explanation because the philotic web that the queens made to capture Jane could have happened from any distances since their philotic connections don't have any problem with distances. Yeah, I'm also lost!

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Postby Arlecchino » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:32 pm

I have my own theories of why they were grouped... I actually think one of them is mentioned in a book.

1)Even though they connect philotically, Queens still need to be within a certain range to command a large number of soldiers. So, the queens had to gather together on their home world to control the soldiers around the planet (to many for each queen to control individually from their own planet and to much for 1 Queen to control).

2) As Col. Graff mention, they needed to form a bridge and to do so had to be close together...like the piggy trees.

3) They wanted to die because they knew humans would never accept them as peaceful. But before they died they left a little present for Ender on the closest planet.

4) it was the hive's annual employee baseball match and the memo said it was mandatory.

Haha, To many holes to actually get the right answer, but all that matters is that the buggers are dead and we finally were able to travel to other planets. Hail Ender!

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Postby margeman2k3 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:23 pm

I think the "right" answer is a bit deeper than just the distance between the Queens and the drones.

The surviving queen made it clear the Ender that they accepted the humans as intelligent, and didn't want to fight them anymore; that was why they didn't try to invade Earth again.

But it's not as simple as them fortifying their position, or them grouping together so they could have stronger "psychic" powers. Since they can communicate over an infinite distance, they could have fortified the planet from *anywhere* in the galaxy.

IMHO, they realized that the only way for them to have peace with the humans was for the humans to kill them all. This wasn't a very practical solution for the Queens though. Part of their mentality (and I'm sorry I can't cite this), is that as long as their memories exist, they consider themselves to be alive. Essentially, if they give birth to a new Queen with all of their memories, then they would be willing to die because everything that they were & experience still lives on in some form.
Once that is established, it gets a bit simpler.
The Queens all transferred their memories to the new Queen, hid her on that first colony (which i have my own issues with...), and allowed Ender to kill them.
Since the new Queen had their memories, they never considered it to be death, but rather, it was them losing their bodies, while their "spirit" survived.
In the end, the war ends, and the Formics survive.

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Postby ^Peter » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:42 am

I think the "right" answer is a bit deeper than just the distance between the Queens and the drones.

The surviving queen made it clear the Ender that they accepted the humans as intelligent, and didn't want to fight them anymore; that was why they didn't try to invade Earth again.

But it's not as simple as them fortifying their position, or them grouping together so they could have stronger "psychic" powers. Since they can communicate over an infinite distance, they could have fortified the planet from *anywhere* in the galaxy.

IMHO, they realized that the only way for them to have peace with the humans was for the humans to kill them all. This wasn't a very practical solution for the Queens though. Part of their mentality (and I'm sorry I can't cite this), is that as long as their memories exist, they consider themselves to be alive. Essentially, if they give birth to a new Queen with all of their memories, then they would be willing to die because everything that they were & experience still lives on in some form.
Once that is established, it gets a bit simpler.
The Queens all transferred their memories to the new Queen, hid her on that first colony (which i have my own issues with...), and allowed Ender to kill them.
Since the new Queen had their memories, they never considered it to be death, but rather, it was them losing their bodies, while their "spirit" survived.
In the end, the war ends, and the Formics survive.
I do believe that is correct, but there is one contradiction to that theory in Children of the Mind. I can't find the specific quote and page, but it's in the chapter where Val and Miro visit the Hive Queen and Val says something like, "You damn well care about dying".
I just lost the game; you just lost the game.

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Postby Gov%ShakespeareCol » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:05 pm

The Hive Queens do have some regard for individual life, as Valentine points out in CotM. They are, however, more willing to sacrifice individual lives for the good of the species than most humans tend to be. They already had the cocooned Hive Queen hidden on their other world for Ender to find.

If the Hive Queens found out about the MD Device, and believed that it might be used on their home planet, they could have, as Ender points out in EiE, fled from the home planet before the humans got there. But then wouldn't the humans chase them and search for them until they had found them all and eradicated them? If the humans got involved in some kind of wide-scoped search for Hive Queens, they may have been more likely to find the one intended for Ender. Whereas the humans believed that they had destroyed all of the Hive Queens at once, they felt no need to go check to make sure that there weren't more--allowing Ender's to live until he found it.

The reason that I believe this is OSC's intended reason is because in addition to making logical sense, it makes literary sense. The very fact that Ender is so concerned about the situation is obviously significant. It can't be written off as love for those whom he has defeated as Petra claims. If that were the case, he would also spend time worrying about why Stilson and Bonzo had so underestimated him. There are several reasons to emphasize things like this in literature. I think the reasons for this particular emphasis are (chronological) foreshadowing and dramatic irony. It is an indication that the Buggers (or Formics, if you are one those PC types) have not, in fact, allowed themselves to be destroyed. In the passage in EiE, Ender is amazed at how foolish the Hive Queens' behavior was. As readers we are shouting at Ender, "They weren't foolish! They're still alive, and they're waiting for you! It's not too late; you can be redeemed!"
Last edited by Gov%ShakespeareCol on Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Gov%ShakespeareCol » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:17 pm

Error post.
Last edited by Gov%ShakespeareCol on Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby margeman2k3 » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:04 pm

I do believe that is correct, but there is one contradiction to that theory in Children of the Mind. I can't find the specific quote and page, but it's in the chapter where Val and Miro visit the Hive Queen and Val says something like, "You damn well care about dying".
I happened to read that part today.
The conversation goes something like this:
(Val & Miro go to visit the Queen to ask why they're still exploring space)
Miro: Why are we still looking, etc.
Queen: "A worse danger than the fleet. We've already beaten the fleet. We've already dispersed. What does it matter if I die? My daughters have all my memories."
(more discussion)
Val (as she's leaving): "...You damn well do mind dying, and if keeping Jane alive might save your life, you do want to do it."
Queen: "... back here, I'll try to find a way to save your life. Jane's life. All our lives."

(I'll post something later...)


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