Speaker For the Dead

Discuss all things pertaining to the EnderVerse milieu.
darenshan54
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Speaker For the Dead

Postby darenshan54 » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:35 pm

Just finished reading it last night, I must say it was a better book than ED, the prose was so much more different. I was just wondering why does Novinha agree to marry Ender, they only knew each other for like 5 days. Also does he eventually have any kids of his own (biological father).

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Postby neo-dragon » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:23 pm

She married him because Ender's just that awesome. As for kids, you should keep reading and find out for yourself. :)
"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'

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Postby starlooker » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:52 pm

Or because she was desperate and guilty.

Either way.

Definitely agree with you regarding SftD being a superior book to EG. Although, I'm going to go on a little rant here about something that bothers me about it.

~~~~~~~~~
This is something that bothered me a little bit the first time I read it and is bothering me more and more as I get older.

The whole idea that a married man and woman are considered to be one person under the law and therefore anything that one person has access to their spouse can access in some way, shape, or form.

While I realize that's basically the whole premise of the story, the older I get, the more it just falls apart for me.

As a professional in my work, I'm not allowed to disclose any identifying information about my patients to anyone who doesn't have a professional right to know or to whom I don't have a release of information. This includes spouse or any other family members. Under no circumstances, my death, me going insane, whatever, would that change.

And I'm going to guess that probably that applies to other professions with strict secrecy codes.

And it seems to me that in a situation as delicate as the one with the pequininos, international law would probably codify right away that this was the case. After all, what if it wasn't Libo but Marcao who wanted the information? The idea that the spouse has the right to all other person's working material under the law just seems silly. Even setting aside this particular profession and looking at others. Does the spouse of an admiral have the right to know if there's a little doctor on the ship? What if the admiral marries some radical enemy? Practically, there's just too much risk for that to be true. Even on a Catholic colony, you'd think interplanetary law would supercede.

No. Practically, legally, it just makes no sense.
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
into the wind, unafraid.
There's another life out there...

~~Mary Chapin Carpenter

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meh

Postby theevilpplz » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:46 pm

you're no fun. :(
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Postby UnnDunn » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:29 pm

Or because she was desperate and guilty.

Either way.

Definitely agree with you regarding SftD being a superior book to EG. Although, I'm going to go on a little rant here about something that bothers me about it.

~~~~~~~~~
This is something that bothered me a little bit the first time I read it and is bothering me more and more as I get older.

The whole idea that a married man and woman are considered to be one person under the law and therefore anything that one person has access to their spouse can access in some way, shape, or form.

While I realize that's basically the whole premise of the story, the older I get, the more it just falls apart for me.

As a professional in my work, I'm not allowed to disclose any identifying information about my patients to anyone who doesn't have a professional right to know or to whom I don't have a release of information. This includes spouse or any other family members. Under no circumstances, my death, me going insane, whatever, would that change.

And I'm going to guess that probably that applies to other professions with strict secrecy codes.

And it seems to me that in a situation as delicate as the one with the pequininos, international law would probably codify right away that this was the case. After all, what if it wasn't Libo but Marcao who wanted the information? The idea that the spouse has the right to all other person's working material under the law just seems silly. Even setting aside this particular profession and looking at others. Does the spouse of an admiral have the right to know if there's a little doctor on the ship? What if the admiral marries some radical enemy? Practically, there's just too much risk for that to be true. Even on a Catholic colony, you'd think interplanetary law would supercede.

No. Practically, legally, it just makes no sense.
Well we do see this theme--the family being a single unit and sharing access to information--repeated a number of times throughout the saga. Peter and Valentine using their parent's access to get on the nets. Han Fei-Tzu and Han Qing-Jao (and Si Wang-Mu) sharing information to crack the case of the missing fleet.

Maybe these were exceptional cases, but it seems to me that... particularly in a culture like that of Path--based as it is on Chinese culture--it would be highly irregular for a father of high standing to share work and/or information with his daughter, no matter her intellect or apparent maturity.

I dunno if I have a point with this; just trying to stir the pot, so to speak.

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Postby neo-dragon » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:17 pm


~~~~~~~~~
This is something that bothered me a little bit the first time I read it and is bothering me more and more as I get older.

The whole idea that a married man and woman are considered to be one person under the law and therefore anything that one person has access to their spouse can access in some way, shape, or form.

While I realize that's basically the whole premise of the story, the older I get, the more it just falls apart for me.

As a professional in my work, I'm not allowed to disclose any identifying information about my patients to anyone who doesn't have a professional right to know or to whom I don't have a release of information. This includes spouse or any other family members. Under no circumstances, my death, me going insane, whatever, would that change.

And I'm going to guess that probably that applies to other professions with strict secrecy codes.

And it seems to me that in a situation as delicate as the one with the pequininos, international law would probably codify right away that this was the case. After all, what if it wasn't Libo but Marcao who wanted the information? The idea that the spouse has the right to all other person's working material under the law just seems silly. Even setting aside this particular profession and looking at others. Does the spouse of an admiral have the right to know if there's a little doctor on the ship? What if the admiral marries some radical enemy? Practically, there's just too much risk for that to be true. Even on a Catholic colony, you'd think interplanetary law would supercede.

No. Practically, legally, it just makes no sense.
Late reply on my part, but you might want to keep in mind that Milagre is a small 100% Catholic colony ruled by a Bishop almost as much as a formal government, wherein the sanctity of marriage as a religion institution is probably a bigger deal than the legal aspects. I'm pretty sure in the Bible there's some stuff about a husband and a wife being of the same flesh or some such.

So rather than getting hung up on how it makes no legal sense and letting that ruin the book for you, you might want to think of it as a religious/cultural tradition not unlike the godspoken on Path receiving special privileges. It may not seem reasonable in a secular society, but it's perfectly in line with their religion.

And don't nit-pick :wink:
"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'

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Postby starlooker » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:37 am

Yes, but there was also an international government which trumped local laws if I'm not mistaken. I mean, I'm sorry, but even if cultural/religious reasons mean that two people are one etc, etc., the US government, for example, wouldn't see that as a reason to allow a husband to have access to sensitive state-controlled material belonging to his wife. I cannot see any international governing organization sanctioning that. I think that would, in any sort of rational universe, trump cultural/religious mores.

Also, Milagre wasn't a full colony, we find out at the end. Which means that the international government has double reason to be involved.

I know, it shouldn't ruin it for me. Like I said, it's nagged me ever since the first time I read it and the older I get, the more it bothers me. At first I could ignore it, but it just unravels for me more and more.

Also, even if it's a Catholic community, I doubt that the church entirely would go for confidentiality extending to spouses. Say in one of those rare instances of priests who are married (I think that happens when an Episcopal who was previously married converts? I don't remember. I just remember reading in the religion thread that it can happen.) Would the sanctity of the confessional suddenly enlarge to include his wife? I don't know, honestly. Perhaps Ali or Rei could answer that. But I'd be surprised.

Also, Card often says that he writes from a certain moral perspective and the people who like his works are usually comfortable in that perspective. I'm growing less and less comfortable with his perspective regarding marriage on the whole, which means that despite my love for SftD, the whole "It's just fine and accepted that a man can know anything about what his wife is doing, no matter what" is not okay with me. Vice versa isn't okay, either, and I know that it would probably work both ways in this fictional world. But the specific circumstances of the book were a man getting to find out private information about his wife no matter her objections, and that pisses me off on a whole other level. (Please refer to Kirsten's years working with women in abusive and controlling relationships that very often involved males invading/attempting to control their work.)

I suppose part of it is the fact that I deal with issues of confidentiality and confidential material on a daily basis. I just know the ins and outs of how this works as well as having spent the past five years having the importance of it hammered into my head and having to think of/take tests and oral exams regarding/discussing and staffing issues where we were wading into sticky ethical territory about confidentiality. This makes it much harder for me to ignore that aspect. In my own moral universe, it is not a minor detail that you can just twist willy-nilly to advance a plot. It matters.

Anyhow. I know. Honestly, if I reread the book it probably wouldn't irritate me that much or ruin it for me, but it does BOTHER me.
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
into the wind, unafraid.
There's another life out there...

~~Mary Chapin Carpenter

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Postby neo-dragon » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:38 pm

I always got the impression that the colony worlds were pretty much left to their own devices. Again, there's the example of Path where there are arguably human rights issues. Neither Path or Lusitania were actually members of the Hundred Worlds, which probably means that Starways Congress didn't get very involved in their local laws and customs unless there was a serious problem (ie. breaching the rules of contact with the Piggies). Congress wasn't even aware of the cultural contamination until Jane purposely leaked satellite images. If they weren't keeping a close eye on relations with the only alien species known in the universe, they really don't seem like the type of governing body that would get in a huff about the confidentiality thing, especially when no one in Milagre except Novinha had a problem with it. There is no "international" government but rather an interstellar one that probably doesn't care that much about what's happening on small colonies many, many light years away.

Oh, and to be fair to Card's moral perspective, he did represent this lack of privacy as pretty much destroying two families. It's not like the message in SftD was that everyone ends up happy and fulfilled when a husband and wife can't keep secrets from each other. It was kind of the opposite.
"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."
- Frank Herbert's 'Dune'

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Postby starlooker » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:36 pm

Going to reply in more depth later -- I'm at work.

But to the moral universe thing, I don't think he intended the message to be that people end up happy and fulfilled when husband and wife are allowed their professional boundaries and privacy. I think it was more of a message that, well, damn, shouldn't Novinha just have trusted the man she wanted to marry and not been so obsessed with keeping the secret from him? Definitely seemed to me more blaming Novinha for destroying the families by keeping the secrets than blaming Starways Congress or the laws of the colonies for making such an utterly asinine rule in the first place.
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
into the wind, unafraid.
There's another life out there...

~~Mary Chapin Carpenter

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Postby locke » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:12 am

yeah it makes no sense as a Starways Congress rule, but Novinha, as one of the only people in contact with the aliens was probably an 'interstellar federal' employee. That would make me think that the sorts of confidentiality rules Kirsten is talking about would realistically be in place which would supercede the rules of the colony. A national security issue of sorts.

The moral definitely comes across as "women shouldn't keep pesky secrets, those troublemakers!"

Paradoxically I sort of feel that both of them working on essentially the same project would necessitate the sharing of that information on a professional level. I think that (legally and ethically) would be a whole lot more likely in any situation than sharing it on a personal level with a spouse.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.


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