Ender vs. Artemis Fowl

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Ender vs. Artemis Fowl

Postby CezeN » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:02 pm

Im new here. But I just wanted to know what everyone thinks about how smart Ender is compared to Artemis Fowl. There both boy geniuses. While Artemis outsmarts fairies, Ender outsmarts aliens. Only difference is Ender is more genius oriented at his leadership skils,war skills, and charisma.

Also, Achilles and Ender. What type of reaction would they have to meeting each other. How would Ender deal with Achilles, or would Achilles ultimately kill him.
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Postby Jebus » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:43 pm

No, that's boring.

What about Superman vs the Hulk?

Or Spiderman vs Batman?

Who's faster, Flash or Speedy Gonzales?

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Postby neo-dragon » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:55 pm

I don't know anything about Artemis Fowl, but to answer Jebus's questions:
- Superman beats the Hulk
- Spider-man beats Batman if it's a random encounter, but Batman wins if he's familiar with Spidey's powers and has time to prepare.
- Flash
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Postby CezeN » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:46 pm

Well if you like boy geniuses like Ender. You should read the Artemis Fowl series, its just as good......And How would it be boring.............And so no one in these forums have heard of the Artemis Fowl series :( Have yall heard of Harry Potter.
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Postby neo-dragon » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:47 pm

Harry Potter...?? Sounds vaguely familiar. Is that the one about midgets with a magic ring, or the one with the talking lion?
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Postby locke » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:09 am

the first artemis fowl was pretty cute, kinda a modern boy version of doc savage more than Ender though.
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby CezeN » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:53 pm

Neodragon, Im gonna assume that your joking. Whats doc savage, and what do you mean, and have you read any other Artemis Fowl books.
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Postby lyons24000 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:03 pm

I read the first Artemis Fowl book. I never got around to reading the rest, though.

Anyhow, I can't say. Fowl was more of a genuis at his computer and find answers to math problems and all that.

Ender, while perhaps not to the level as Fowl in an intellectual capacity, would completely destroy him in a fight. Fowl would be dead and Ender would then be the smartest of the two.

Sarcasm aside, I read the book years and years ago. My memory is not that fresh. Why don't you tell us the answer.
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Postby locke » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:21 am

perhaps Encyclopedia Brown is a better comparison.

Doc Savage (wiki is your friend)
Doc Savage, whose real name is Clark Savage, Jr., is a physician, surgeon, scientist, adventurer, inventor, explorer, researcher, and musician — a renaissance man. A team of scientists assembled by his father trained his mind and body to near-superhuman abilities almost from birth, giving him great strength and endurance, a photographic memory, mastery of the martial arts, and vast knowledge of the sciences. Doc is also a master of disguise and an excellent imitator of voices, though he admits to having trouble with women's voices. "He rights wrongs and punishes evildoers." Dent described the hero as a mix of Sherlock Holmes' deductive abilities, Tarzan's outstanding physical abilities, Craig Kennedy's scientific education, and Abraham Lincoln's goodness. Dent described Doc Savage as manifesting "Christliness." Doc's character and world-view is displayed in his oath, which goes as follows[1]:
“ Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, that all may profit by it. Let me think of the right and lend all my assistance to those who need it, with no regard for anything but justice. Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage. Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens and my associates in everything I say and do. Let me do right to all, and wrong no man. ”

His office is on the 86th floor of a New York City skyscraper, implicitly the Empire State Building, reached by Doc's private high-speed elevator. Doc owns a fleet of cars, trucks, aircraft, and boats which he stores at a secret hangar on the Hudson River, under the name The Hidalgo Trading Company, reached from his office by a pneumatic-tube system called the "flea run." He sometimes retreats to his Fortress of Solitude in the Arctic—which pre-dates Superman's similar hideout of the same name. All of this is paid for with gold from a Central American mine given to him by the local Mayans in the first Doc Savage story. (Doc and his assistants learned the little-known Mayan dialect of this people, allowing them to communicate privately when others might be listening.)
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Jebus » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:16 am

Harry Potter...?? Sounds vaguely familiar. Is that the one about midgets with a magic ring, or the one with the talking lion?
Harry Potter was the child of the prophecy, who would bring the force back into alignment. He had a midiclorin level of like a gazillion.

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Postby CezeN » Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:17 am

I read the first Artemis Fowl book. I never got around to reading the rest, though.

Anyhow, I can't say. Fowl was more of a genuis at his computer and find answers to math problems and all that.

Ender, while perhaps not to the level as Fowl in an intellectual capacity, would completely destroy him in a fight. Fowl would be dead and Ender would then be the smartest of the two.

Sarcasm aside, I read the book years and years ago. My memory is not that fresh. Why don't you tell us the answer.
Yeah, your memory isnt that fresh. He was a genious at coming up with plans, scheming. He outsmarts Fairies, who have advanced centuries beyond humans and have magic. Hes a criminal mastermind, and goes out alot, not really on his computer as much. He figured out how to get past fairies magic. Timestops, shielding(meaning when the fairies turn invisible), Mesmer(strong hypnosis).

In a battle against Ender it depends on the situation. ARtemis doesnt actaully know how to fight, he relies entirely on his brain and being able to think well under pressure.

Give me a battle situation
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Postby shadow_8818 » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:37 pm

Wow some need to widen there Horizon of reading to maybe books not created by OSC
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Postby Darth Petra » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:51 pm

Wow some need to widen there Horizon of reading to maybe books not created by OSC
Just because we haven't read a children's book? Or did you not catch the sarcasm? You confuse me. :?
Harry Potter...?? Sounds vaguely familiar. Is that the one about midgets with a magic ring, or the one with the talking lion?
Or the one with the cliche who hatches a giant lizard?
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Postby Pixel » Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:19 pm

As tempting as it is to make a sarcastic post, considering I seem to be one of the few here who have read both Artemis and Ender series, I guess I might as well answer seriously to please the guy.

Ender would win in most situations, battle or not. Just to sum up Artemis for those who haven't read the books (yes, it's a children/young teen's series. Yes, the Ender series is better. No, I'm not telling you to go read it. Don't even bother, it's not like EG) he is an intellectual child prodigy, much like Ender. However, he's more the type that is HEAVILY reliant on butlers, bodyguards, allies, money, and technology to get things done. Ender's more independent and versatile to more situations.

Thus, in general, Ender, or Bean for that matter, > Artemis Fowl. ESPECIALLY in a fight. Artemis (picture him as a sort of stereotypical nerdy boy, wears a suit, doesn't get his hands too dirty doing his own work, he gets others to do the dirty work for him) wouldn't stand two punches from Ender.

Case closed. No room for debate.

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Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:30 pm

money, and technology
Summed up, that's my take on A.F.

I've read the first two A.F. books but it's been too long to remember much more than my general impression that he gets everything done due to those two things, and the technology is really just a byproduct of having the money.

So yes, no contest, Ender is the better leader/fighter.
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Postby Pixel » Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:12 am

Indeed. The only way Artemis would outsmart/outdo Ender is if he had his whole mansion worth of technology, money, and his bodyguards and such. And that wouldn't really be a fair Ender vs. Artemis, now would it? That would be Ender vs. Artemis's stuff and henchmen.

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Postby CezeN » Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:27 am

LOL. I think there is room for debate. For one you overexaggerated Artemis's reliance on other people. He only really uses Butler and the fairies. If you remember in the first book its just him, Butler, and Butlers sister vs the fairies and yet he still beat them. He really only has one bodyguard which is Butler.

Also, the technology he usually relies on, is the technology he makes from the stolen fairy technology he gets, or that he makes himself.
Mostly, he relies on his brain, not money and people. In the first book he barely had any money, because his dad was missing and stealing it from the fairies was the whole reason for the book.

And, if you read the last book The TIme Paradox you will see how self reliant he is. Basically, at the end, its him on his own, vs a magically augmented fairy genius, and he uses his brain, and an airplane that he built with his own hands prior, to lure her into a corner, and trap her with an ingenius trump card that no one knew about except him. Kinda like a game of chess.
Have you read Artemis Fowl and the Time Paradox??? I hope Im not spoiling much.

Last, if you want to talk about a one-on-one fight, Artemis is magical therefore, his body would just heal himself after Enders punches.
But, thats assuming the situation is a one-on-one fight. Im talking about Artemis vs. Ender in any situation.

Gravity Defier-In the first book he barely had any money, and that was the whole point of it. After the first book, the technology he usually uses is not a byproduct of money, but of his own technological genius.

Thanks for reviving this.
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Postby seanywack » Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:35 pm

hey im new to this site, but i just wanted to say that i have read and enjoyed every ender novel and all the artemis fowl books. i love the artemis fowl books but ender is so much better. as for who would win in a fight, i think that would make a very interesting book in itself. (hinthint)

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Postby elfprince13 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:03 pm

honestly, the Artemis Fowl is nowhere near the quality of Ender's Game. its certainly a fun read though.

I can't really see any situation in which Arty would come up against Ender. a much more interesting situation would be Artemis Fowl trying to outscheme Peter Wiggin or Bean.

as for Ender vs Achille.....that wouldn't even be a contest. Achille wasn't even that smart, just snakey and a pathological liar.
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Postby ^Peter » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:14 pm

I don't know anything about Artemis Fowl, but to answer Jebus's questions:
- Superman beats the Hulk
- Spider-man beats Batman if it's a random encounter, but Batman wins if he's familiar with Spidey's powers and has time to prepare.
- Flash
Nuh-uh. Speedy beats Flash anyday.
Harry Potter was the child of the prophecy, who would bring the force back into alignment. He had a midiclorin level of like a gazillion.
And Potter had a midiclorin level of a bazillion-gazillion, moron. :lol:

On topic: Artemis Fowl wasn't bad. In fact, I enjoyed it. But it doesn't compare it to Ender.
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Flash or Speedy

Postby greenbrowngreen » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:19 pm

You would have to take into account the size difference between the two, if so Speedy may actually be faster (inch for inch that is)

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Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:38 pm

Artemis Fowl is actually a fun read, though not nearly as good as EG or ES. I read the entire series and was hooked.
LOL. I think there is room for debate. For one you overexaggerated Artemis's reliance on other people. He only really uses Butler and the fairies. If you remember in the first book its just him, Butler, and Butlers sister vs the fairies and yet he still beat them. He really only has one bodyguard which is Butler.


Also, the technology he usually relies on, is the technology he makes from the stolen fairy technology he gets, or that he makes himself.
Mostly, he relies on his brain, not money and people. In the first book he barely had any money, because his dad was missing and stealing it from the fairies was the whole reason for the book.

And, if you read the last book The TIme Paradox you will see how self reliant he is. Basically, at the end, its him on his own, vs a magically augmented fairy genius, and he uses his brain, and an airplane that he built with his own hands prior, to lure her into a corner, and trap her with an ingenius trump card that no one knew about except him. Kinda like a game of chess.
Have you read Artemis Fowl and the Time Paradox??? I hope Im not spoiling much.

Last, if you want to talk about a one-on-one fight, Artemis is magical therefore, his body would just heal himself after Enders punches.
But, thats assuming the situation is a one-on-one fight. Im talking about Artemis vs. Ender in any situation.

Gravity Defier-In the first book he barely had any money, and that was the whole point of it. After the first book, the technology he usually uses is not a byproduct of money, but of his own technological genius.

Thanks for reviving this.
In the first book, it's Artemis, Butler (which, if you remember, handled a Troll- which, if you don't know, is like The Hulk and a minotaur combined), Butler's sister (which is no joke either), and whatever Artemis can use in Fowl Manor- the battleground is Artemis' house, he has complete knowledge of it which is a great advantage.

Artemis is a genius when he has time to think. And though you bring The Time Paradox as an example of when he faces dangers in real-time, alone, and wins against all odds (against, let's not forget, an opponent whose desire for something overshadows her senses, which is a major disadvantage), I can bring two contradicting examples- The Opal Deception, where he had to rely on Holly Short in order to be rescued from the park, and The Infinity Code, where Butler saved him from Arno Blunt. In both of these times, Artemis could have- no, should have- been able to find a way out, if he were a real genius even in times of danger, but his panic made him numb.

So, about Artemis VS Ender in a 1-on-1 match: first of all, Ender would try to stop that match from happening. If that match had to happen, then it depends on whether Artemis had much time to prepare himself- then he would gain the upper hand, and possibly would win, though not by himself but by his friends and technology (which Ender doesn't have). If Artemis didn't have much time to prepare himself, then despite the magic in his bones (is it still there after The Time Paradox? I forgot), Ender would finish him off- it takes time to heal serious wounds (fractures and so) by magic, and Ender would either beat Artemis up during that time or Artemis' magic would run out.

In response to other questions:
-Ender would realize the true nature of Achilles; pre-Shakespeare Ender would destroy Achilles as much as he could (possibly killing him), while mid- and post-Shakespeare Ender would try to get Achilles as far away from human life as possible, and if it were not possible only then would he kill him.
However, if this were a full-scale war and Achilles was out in the open, he would probably arrange a snatch or a hit on Ender soon enough, so that there would be no competitors or so that he could manipulate him (before he kills Ender); and since Ender doesn't have Bean's sixth sense, he would die or be kidnapped.

-Superman definitely beats the Hulk. Superman has everything the Hulk has, plus laser beams from his eyes, the power to freeze, the power of flying and a little something called self-control which the Hulk lacks. So as long as the Hulk isn't made of Kryptonite, he would SO lose.

-If Batman could prepare, he would prevail against Spidy (is that how you spell it?), but otherwise Spiderman would win. The ability to swing from buildings just does all the difference.

-Flash is faster than Speedy Gonzales, though not by much.
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Postby CezeN » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:26 am

Artemis Fowl is actually a fun read, though not nearly as good as EG or ES. I read the entire series and was hooked.
LOL. I think there is room for debate. For one you overexaggerated Artemis's reliance on other people. He only really uses Butler and the fairies. If you remember in the first book its just him, Butler, and Butlers sister vs the fairies and yet he still beat them. He really only has one bodyguard which is Butler.


Also, the technology he usually relies on, is the technology he makes from the stolen fairy technology he gets, or that he makes himself.
Mostly, he relies on his brain, not money and people. In the first book he barely had any money, because his dad was missing and stealing it from the fairies was the whole reason for the book.

And, if you read the last book The TIme Paradox you will see how self reliant he is. Basically, at the end, its him on his own, vs a magically augmented fairy genius, and he uses his brain, and an airplane that he built with his own hands prior, to lure her into a corner, and trap her with an ingenius trump card that no one knew about except him. Kinda like a game of chess.
Have you read Artemis Fowl and the Time Paradox??? I hope Im not spoiling much.

Last, if you want to talk about a one-on-one fight, Artemis is magical therefore, his body would just heal himself after Enders punches.
But, thats assuming the situation is a one-on-one fight. Im talking about Artemis vs. Ender in any situation.

Gravity Defier-In the first book he barely had any money, and that was the whole point of it. After the first book, the technology he usually uses is not a byproduct of money, but of his own technological genius.

Thanks for reviving this.
In the first book, it's Artemis, Butler (which, if you remember, handled a Troll- which, if you don't know, is like The Hulk and a minotaur combined), Butler's sister (which is no joke either), and whatever Artemis can use in Fowl Manor- the battleground is Artemis' house, he has complete knowledge of it which is a great advantage.

Artemis is a genius when he has time to think. And though you bring The Time Paradox as an example of when he faces dangers in real-time, alone, and wins against all odds (against, let's not forget, an opponent whose desire for something overshadows her senses, which is a major disadvantage), I can bring two contradicting examples- The Opal Deception, where he had to rely on Holly Short in order to be rescued from the park, and The Infinity Code, where Butler saved him from Arno Blunt. In both of these times, Artemis could have- no, should have- been able to find a way out, if he were a real genius even in times of danger, but his panic made him numb.

So, about Artemis VS Ender in a 1-on-1 match: first of all, Ender would try to stop that match from happening. If that match had to happen, then it depends on whether Artemis had much time to prepare himself- then he would gain the upper hand, and possibly would win, though not by himself but by his friends and technology (which Ender doesn't have). If Artemis didn't have much time to prepare himself, then despite the magic in his bones (is it still there after The Time Paradox? I forgot), Ender would finish him off- it takes time to heal serious wounds (fractures and so) by magic, and Ender would either beat Artemis up during that time or Artemis' magic would run out.
I disagree with saying that Artemis should have been able to find a way out. The guy had a gun pointed on him, genius or not, theres nothing he can do. It would be the same for Ender. If a professional hitman had a gun pointed at him, in an enclosed space, do you really think he would have been able to survive without help? Lets look for example at Bean, when he was getting shot at when he was older by some of Achilles henchman. I forgot what book, but when he started running, he thought to himself that he was finished, since it was unlikely that real trained assassins would coincidentally be bad shots like it showed in the vids.
So then another cab driver showed up, and saved him. Do you really think it would have been different for Ender in that situation? No. I wouldn't say panic made Artemis numb. I just think that he realized how impossible it was to survive, and that their was no actions that would possibely save him, that he could make.

Not to mention that you cited Artemis encounters from past books. By the Time Paradox, the latest one, you can interpret that as how he has grown and character developed into someone who's more self-reliant and able to come out on top by himself, in real time.
Lets say we were talking about MMA fighters. Its equivalent to saying, "Artemis can't beat Ender because two years ago, he lost twice to submission experts". And my answer is "That was two years ago, Artemis has advanced as a fighter, so you can't really cite examples of his former skills, in order to justify him losing to Ender since hes a submission expert".

I agree with you on the one-on-one situation. Except for the fact that Ender does have friends and technology. What you mean is that he wouldn't use them? And it was pretty ambiguous whether he still has magic. Though Holly says she found traces of magic left in him. We don't know if it will regenerate like it does with fairys.

Truthfully though, unless it was pre-planned, neither would fight, and it would turn into some sort of debate about something. x)
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Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:04 am

Ender has friends- but Artemis has Butler. The only friend Ender has who is possibly comparable to Butler is Bean, and while Bean is stronger than Butler on the intellectual side, Butler is still stronger than Bean physically. (Also, wait long enough and Bean will be gone; then Ender will be all set for the ass-kicking).

I can't recall any technology that Ender has that would help him out in a fight against Artemis. Other than possibly the Little Doctor. :)
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Postby CezeN » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:31 pm

Ender has friends- but Artemis has Butler. The only friend Ender has who is possibly comparable to Butler is Bean, and while Bean is stronger than Butler on the intellectual side, Butler is still stronger than Bean physically. (Also, wait long enough and Bean will be gone; then Ender will be all set for the ass-kicking).

I can't recall any technology that Ender has that would help him out in a fight against Artemis. Other than possibly the Little Doctor. :)
Well Bean did become a giant, so Butler might not necessarily be stronger then him. This would all depend on what age, at what time in the series the characters are at.

Well, Jane teleportation. Butttttt Bean wouldn't be around at that time. So he wouldnt be able to access that ability yet.
The Little Doctor = toooooo cheap
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Postby mist_master » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:54 am

I also beleive that Ender wouid try not to fight Artemis, but basicly it would just be Artemis chasing Ender until he finnaly gives up. Artemis Fowl is too smug and wimpy (artemis's reaction to Holly's punch) :shock:
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Postby ^Peter » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:13 pm

What would Artemis Fowl gain from competing against Ender? Maybe alien technology? Though I don't like to admit it, Fowl would beat Wiggin, mainly because it would be Artemis striking first, and he would have done his research on Ender and devised the perfect ambush for him, just like for the faeries. HOWEVER, if it were a fair, straightforward match of wits, Ender would definately win. Ender is better at thinking on his feet, and more physically fit for that matter. Think about it; Ender and his jeesh and Dragon Army against the Fowls, the Butlers, and whatever few faeries are willing to help. That would be epic.
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Title: will not be ignored

Postby CezeN » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:06 am

What would Artemis Fowl gain from competing against Ender? Maybe alien technology? Though I don't like to admit it, Fowl would beat Wiggin, mainly because it would be Artemis striking first, and he would have done his research on Ender and devised the perfect ambush for him, just like for the faeries. HOWEVER, if it were a fair, straightforward match of wits, Ender would definately win. Ender is better at thinking on his feet, and more physically fit for that matter. Think about it; Ender and his jeesh and Dragon Army against the Fowls, the Butlers, and whatever few faeries are willing to help. That would be epic.
I think your right.
What's the chance that Fowl would just come to a straightforward fight?
Depending on who's confronting who, Fowl would have planned something.....

Yeah that would be really epic.
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Postby Gov%ShakespeareCol » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:46 am

I can't believe I am getting sucked into this. I usually try to avoid these kinds of things.

Disclaimer: I've never read Artemis fowl. All that I know about it comes from what I have read in the posts in this thread.
I just think that he realized how impossible it was to survive, and that their was no actions that would possibely save him, that he could make.
This is exactly the kind of situation in which Ender thrives. Ender's unwillingness to give up, even in obviously impossible situations, is why he is the savior of the human race in the EnderVerse. When he is faced with two armies at once in the battle room, and even the terrain is stacked against him, victory is obviously impossible. But Ender doesn't cower in his corner, he refuses to give up, and does something insane. When Ender is looking at a screen full of enemy ships that outnumber him in impossible ways, he does something so stupid that it seems futile. But he makes it work. (Should this success be partially credited to Bean, and therefore support the idea that Ender needs the help of his friends? Maybe, but I don't think it amounts to being rescued.) Even on Lusitania, when there is a fleet approaching to use the MD Device again, and everyone is trying to give up, Ender won't let it happen.

Graff and Rackham frequently discuss Ender's unwillingness to give up. Graff says that it isn't even part of the way Ender thinks, it is just ingrained into his subconscious somehow. Ender never even acknowledges that a problem is insurmountable--impossibility isn't even an option in Ender's mind. The very fact that Artemis seems to acknowledge a situation as impossible or that certain defeat is a possibility is what makes it seem to me that Ender is coming into the match-up with an advantage.

What would Ender do if he were closed in with a professional, intent on killing him? I don't know, because I'm not as smart as him, but it would be crazy and the killer wouldn't expect it. Ender might even get killed trying it, but at least he would have tried it.

Now the fun stuff:
So as long as the Hulk isn't made of Kryptonite, he would SO lose.
That raises an interesting point. Is it possible that when the Gamma bomb exposed Bruce Banner to whatever it is that makes him The Hulk, that some of the cells in his body were irradiated and transformed, and that when he transforms, Krypton molecules come to the surface of his skin, making it green? Yeah, I know, that's not how irradiation works--it doesn't just rearrange elements. But a gamma bomb can't turn you into a green monster, either. We're not exactly limited by the realm of science here.
If Batman could prepare, he would prevail against Spidy (is that how you spell it?), but otherwise Spiderman would win. The ability to swing from buildings just does all the difference.
I'm not sure Batman would require preparation to have an advantage over Spidey. Look at some of the classic Spider-man villains. Green Goblin, Vulture, Shocker. All of these characters used technology without the help of super powers (Does Goblin Serum count as a super power?) to successfully defeat Spider-man a number of times. As a matter of fact, in the classic Romita-era Spider-man issues, the villain always defeated Spidey in the first issue, and then, once Spidey had time to prepare, he got back in the second issue.

Ability to swing from buildings? Batman does that too. In fact, he does it quite often. In the comics, that's one of the primary uses for his grapple gun/grapple lines (depending on who's writing the book).

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Title: will not be ignored

Postby CezeN » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:17 pm

I can't believe I am getting sucked into this. I usually try to avoid these kinds of things.

Disclaimer: I've never read Artemis fowl. All that I know about it comes from what I have read in the posts in this thread.
I just think that he realized how impossible it was to survive, and that their was no actions that would possibely save him, that he could make.
This is exactly the kind of situation in which Ender thrives. Ender's unwillingness to give up, even in obviously impossible situations, is why he is the savior of the human race in the EnderVerse. When he is faced with two armies at once in the battle room, and even the terrain is stacked against him, victory is obviously impossible. But Ender doesn't cower in his corner, he refuses to give up, and does something insane. When Ender is looking at a screen full of enemy ships that outnumber him in impossible ways, he does something so stupid that it seems futile. But he makes it work. (Should this success be partially credited to Bean, and therefore support the idea that Ender needs the help of his friends? Maybe, but I don't think it amounts to being rescued.) Even on Lusitania, when there is a fleet approaching to use the MD Device again, and everyone is trying to give up, Ender won't let it happen.

Graff and Rackham frequently discuss Ender's unwillingness to give up. Graff says that it isn't even part of the way Ender thinks, it is just ingrained into his subconscious somehow. Ender never even acknowledges that a problem is insurmountable--impossibility isn't even an option in Ender's mind. The very fact that Artemis seems to acknowledge a situation as impossible or that certain defeat is a possibility is what makes it seem to me that Ender is coming into the match-up with an advantage.

What would Ender do if he were closed in with a professional, intent on killing him? I don't know, because I'm not as smart as him, but it would be crazy and the killer wouldn't expect it. Ender might even get killed trying it, but at least he would have tried it.
Your right.

Except the moment in the book series we were referring to was the third book, out of six.
And as the series moves onward, we see Artemis become more self-dependant, and character develope.

In the fifth book, his friends are killed, and he is cornered alone facing a demon. Yet, impossibley he doesn't allow himself to give up, and finds a way to save himself, and revive his friends at the same time.

Sixth book, the lemur constantly gets away from him, and his younger self constantly outsmarts him, but despite odds he always thinks of a way to come out on top. Even when facing the fairy all by himself at the end.

Fowl has developed into having sorta the same trait you just attributed to Ender.
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Postby Eskarina » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:44 am

I though believe them two wouldn't have to end up competing *necessarily*.

Artemis has a trait of trying to use people, at least in the very first I believe two books? (Maybe just one, I am not sure, I'm going by memory here and it's been quite a bit since I've read the whole series.) I think he would try to take advantage of Ender somewhat.

Considered Ender though isn't well known for letting people take advantage of him, I guess he'd block him, getting curious what kind of person this Artemis boy is, and they would end up at least interested in each other intellectually. Maybe finding out they can be something close to cooperating, if not being 'friends', counting how not entirely social they were in the beginnings. I guess it would depend strongly what stage of lives they would meet in.

On the other hand, Artemis gets more 'friendly' toward the end of the books, even developing something like a conscience for his own actions, and I think it might have worked for them being more than just working on a common deal. Or, they may have gone entirely different paths- but they wouldn't still have to compete. Both of them let people do their own thing as long as it doesn't interfere with their interests, after all. Ie, I don't think they would *want* to outsmart each other as some kind of at first sight.

Speaking of civilian settings here, I haven't yet considered much the fight and/or strongly survival oriented settings. Maybe later.

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Postby not_vichyssoise » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:03 pm

I have read artemis fowl, and i have read Enders game. artemis fowl doesnt even come close.

to answer the 2nd question: "achilles or ender?" i think it would be very similar to the confrontation between beans son and ender on the colony planet. ender would win, just like he always does
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Postby Wednesday » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:41 pm

I though believe them two wouldn't have to end up competing *necessarily*.

Artemis has a trait of trying to use people, at least in the very first I believe two books? (Maybe just one, I am not sure, I'm going by memory here and it's been quite a bit since I've read the whole series.) I think he would try to take advantage of Ender somewhat.

Considered Ender though isn't well known for letting people take advantage of him, I guess he'd block him, getting curious what kind of person this Artemis boy is, and they would end up at least interested in each other intellectually. Maybe finding out they can be something close to cooperating, if not being 'friends', counting how not entirely social they were in the beginnings. I guess it would depend strongly what stage of lives they would meet in.

On the other hand, Artemis gets more 'friendly' toward the end of the books, even developing something like a conscience for his own actions, and I think it might have worked for them being more than just working on a common deal. Or, they may have gone entirely different paths- but they wouldn't still have to compete. Both of them let people do their own thing as long as it doesn't interfere with their interests, after all. Ie, I don't think they would *want* to outsmart each other as some kind of at first sight.

Speaking of civilian settings here, I haven't yet considered much the fight and/or strongly survival oriented settings. Maybe later.
I've read Artemis Fowl, and the Ender series... I think it really depends on which world this is in... Because while Ender is probably more physically fit then Artemis, and he had lots of training in the battleroom, the battleroom is really quite specialized. What you've done in there will help your physical fitness, but unless Ender was facing Arty in a zero-G room, with his army, it wouldn't do him that much good... Ender was helped out a whole bunch by Jane in later books, and she only revealed herself to him because she though he would be able to understand her. Artemis is good at using people, but so is Ender, in the later books at least. Also, Artemis does a lot for personal gain, while Ender is more humanity-oriented. I hate to say it, but I think that Artemis would probably win

The Ender series is better, however!

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Postby Eskarina » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:39 am

.... I'd, though, still keep in mind Ender isn't *naive* about the social interactions. He sees through them, and he understands cruelty, but he just doesn't like to use it or be *obviously* manipulative from what I've gathered should there be other choices to treat people. He's not 'just' physically fit person, clueless about relationships functionings and how manipulative some people of his vicinity can be.

(Even if being in good condition would give him some advantage to Artemis.

But this is also relative; Arty has the strenght to struggle and get himself more tough if he finds out it's necessary for achieving his goals, he just didn't.. Umm, may say pay attention to it as important skills before he got involved with whole leprechaun world.)
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