OK, help me out here...

[UnnDunn]

I only discovered EG last summer, but since then I've read both quartets like three times (Xenocide in audio) and I'm working through them a fourth time. Awesome stuff; they single-handedly got me into reading Sci-Fi.

I haven't read AWoG yet... I couldn't bring myself to pay $12.95 for a 100+ page book, hardcover or no. Maybe soon.

Anyways, one thing I never quite managed to wrap my head around, and I'd appreciate a 101-level explanation of is the process that led to the creation of Jane.

The way I read it, Jane came about sometime during the third invasion, because the Formics called her aiua Inside in order to try to communicate with Ender in an effort to save themselves. Jane's aiua then took possession of and "lived" in the ansible network linking Eros to the fleet, and used it to access the Battle School fantasy game, through which she found Ender. She used its records of his fantasy game sessions to create a personality around. Then Jane grew as colonies were established with their own fixed ansibles all linked into one network.

Am I reading it right? It still doesn't completely make sense to me, but it's the best I could come up with...

The other thing I'm not too clear about is who was responsible for sending Ender into exile? It seems both Valentine and Peter take credit (or blame) for it in different books...

[zeroguy]

Welcome to PWeb. Have some limeade.

Anyways, one thing I never quite managed to wrap my head around, and I'd appreciate a 101-level explanation of is the process that led to the creation of Jane.

I'm a little rusty, since I think it's been over a year since I've last read the speaker series (maybe the time is right for me to re-read again...), but I'll try.

The way I read it, Jane came about sometime during the third invasion, because the Formics called her aiua Inside in order to try to communicate with Ender in an effort to save themselves.

A little more than that, if I recall correctly. They tried to enslave him like they do their workers, but for whatever reason (either "too stupid" or "too free"; I believe the Huve Queen says both, probably depends on your point of view), queens can't break down humans like they can with bugger workers. Or at least, they couldn't with Ender (and I think it was attempted with Valentine sometime later, too, which also failed), not sure if it holds with all humans.

Or maybe they tried that first, and brought Jane's aiua in afterwards when that didn't work. Or I'm confusing this with a different part of Xenocide entirely.

Jane's aiua then took possession of and "lived" in the ansible network linking Eros to the fleet, and used it to access the Battle School fantasy game, through which she found Ender.

My memory must be really fuzzy about this. I thought Ender was first, and through him she found the fantasy game....

Okay, looking up the passage I was thinking of, I may be confusing Jane's discovery of Ender with the Formics' method of trying to communicate with Ender. From Xenocide (the Hive Queen "talking" to a fathertree, I forget which one):

Human minds lack focus. They get bored and wander off. We had to build a bridge outside him, using the computer that he was most closely bonded with. Computers, now-- those things can pay attention. And their memory is neat, orderly, everything organized and findable.

"the computer he was most closely bonded with" refers to the Fantasy Game, as I recall. So, the bridge (Jane) was intentionally created in the Fantasy Game (or at least somewhere in the IFs network) to try and communicate with Ender. That's how they new what buildings and landmarks to create at the end of EG to lead Ender to the last Queen.

I'm still not really clear on Jane's awareness at this stage, though. I still thought she was relatively simple, and later found Ender just from familiarity with the Fantasy Game from her earlier years. Have you read Investment Councilor?

The other thing I'm not too clear about is who was responsible for sending Ender into exile? It seems both Valentine and Peter take credit (or blame) for it in different books...

Really? Where are you getting this from? I don't recall them specifically being responsible, but I could very well just be forgetting. It was Ender's decision ultimately to leave Earth in the first place, though Val and Peter certainly helped him arrive at that decision. You may get a better answer when Ender in Exile is written, too.

[UnnDunn]

Most of my analysis of Jane's origin comes from the chapter on Jane in SftD, but there's a whole bit in Xenocide about it that I'm fuzzy on the details of (I need to re-download it from Audible and listen to it again, I guess.)

Your theory about Jane existing as a tool of the Buggers during the third invasion makes more sense to me, I think. I haven't read First Meetings yet.

The other thing I'm not too clear about is who was responsible for sending Ender into exile? It seems both Valentine and Peter take credit (or blame) for it in different books...

Really? Where are you getting this from? I don't recall them specifically being responsible, but I could very well just be forgetting. It was Ender's decision ultimately to leave Earth in the first place, though Val and Peter certainly helped him arrive at that decision. You may get a better answer when Ender in Exile is written, too.

Well, at the end of EG, I think it's clear Ender wanted on some level to return to Earth, if for no other reason than because the rest of his jeesh returned and he felt some kinship with them. But then Val comes along and claims she blackmailed Peter into exiling him because she was afraid that Peter would use him to conquer Earth if he returned. She reiterates that claim in Xenocide after she meets up with Miro en route to Lusitania.

But all throughout the Shadow series, Peter repeatedly claims he was solely responsible for sending Ender away; that Val had nothing to do with it. At the end of SotG, he repeats this claim to Val and Ender themselves.

Looking at it now, it's probably another Shadow retcon, but I'd like to believe that's not true.

[zeroguy]

Most of my analysis of Jane's origin comes from the chapter on Jane in SftD, but there's a whole bit in Xenocide about it that I'm fuzzy on the details of (I need to re-download it from Audible and listen to it again, I guess.)

I'm not too familiar with audio books, but it seems like a real book may be helpful here. For re-reading passages, and such. The topic is rather confusing.

Well, at the end of EG, I think it's clear Ender wanted on some level to return to Earth, if for no other reason than because the rest of his jeesh returned and he felt some kinship with them. But then Val comes along and claims she blackmailed Peter into exiling him because she was afraid that Peter would use him to conquer Earth if he returned. She reiterates that claim in Xenocide after she meets up with Miro en route to Lusitania.

I'm not sure if the Xenocide reference has a different take on this, but this isn't the impression I got from the scene in EG.

I showed Peter all the evidence that I had assembled, enough to prove in the eyes of the public that he was a psychotic killer. It included full-color pictures of tortured squirrels and some of the monitor videos of the way he treated you. It took some work to get it all together, but by the time he saw it, he was willing to give me what I wanted. What I wanted was your freedom and mine.

-- Valentine

From this, and that whole conversation, I got the impression that all Val did was prevent Peter from ordering Ender home, or somehow using his power to force Ender into League/Hegemony leadership, or something. The conversation in EG leaves it rather ambiguous as to what exactly Val did (or rather, what exactly Peter wanted and Val thus prevented), and Val could just be trying to make herself sound altruistic and "right" in those speeches, as part of her effort to try and get Ender to leave with her.

Ender still had to be convinced to leave, at least, which is what Val spent most of the time trying to do in that conversation.

And I don't specifically recall the Shadow instances where Peter claimed credit, but it seems like that could easily just be Peter lying, rather than a Shadow/EG discrepancy.

[Janus%TheDoorman]

It makes sense for Peter to want sole credit for sending Ender away. If the idea that Valentine forced him into it were raised, then come questions of how she was able to stop the newly appointed Hegemon from doing so, so on and so forth, until Valentine's blackmail material unearths itself.

I expect, though, that Peter wanted, if nothing else, Ender's name and prestige to back up the waning political power of the Hegemony. Whether he would have fielded Ender as a general is debatable, but at the beginning of the Shadow sequels, Peter seems pretty bummed out about having an essentially useless title with nothing to back it up. He was likely expecting Ender to return home and at least use that as leverage to form the FPE, but without him, his plans fell apart.

[UnnDunn]

OK, so I just ordered First Meetings from Amazon, largely to read Investment Counselor.

I can understand that Peter would want the people around him to believe he was solely responsible for sending Ender away, but why would he say that to Ender and Val themselves, as he did at the end of SotG when he asked Ender to Speak for him?

[UnnDunn]

Bah, Investment Counselor was somewhat disappointing, though The Polish Boy and Teacher's Pest were quite good, I thought. And of course, the original Ender's Game was quite an intriguing read.

Investment Counselor made Ender seem really, really dumb. I mean, after everything he's done, he can't figure out his taxes? Or at least figure out how to make Benedetto go away?