Philotic Web

every time I see the name Quim though, I still shake my head a bit. I wonder if OSC is gonna change that the way he changed the term bugger to formic.

huh?

Google "define quim"

I would have thought that my four character response followed by my patiently waiting for you to reply would have made it clear that I was too lazy to do that much.

Ah well, if you insist...


Oh. You learn something new every day.

And then when I type "Define: Bugger" and look at the "answers.com" definition, I start to wonder what is wrong with Orson Scott Card. I never understood why he changed "bugger" to "Formic" but I guess I know now.

A what-o-mite? j/k, I know what a "what-o-mite" is.

yeah, the buggers buggered us right good all right, f****** buggers.

yeah, the buggers buggered us right good all right, f****** buggers.

Finally read it. Started and finished it yesterday. Sorry if nobody really feels like talking about it anymore, since I'm rather late; just putting some stuff here just in case.

It exceeded my (low) expectations. The opening sucks. Really sucks. About halfway through to about the end (with a rough patch in there), I actually enjoyed it. Maybe not as much as anything in the Speaker series or EG, but certainly better than any Shadow books. There are really good parts and really bad parts, but for the most part they felt separated to me. I didn't realize so much of the book stayed away from Earth and anything Shadow-y; I don't know why I didn't think that, but it definitely helped.

Revisionist scenes didn't bother me so much, but... for many of some early scenes, it just felt like OSC was looking around for explanations for events he kind of glossed over before; actually writing a bunch of possible explanations and then saying which one makes sense. The scene with Ender and Val that differed from EG was just part of his new round of connecting the dots, which is annoying, but the actual change wasn't bad. At least, I don't remember it bothering me.

I found many similarities to The Worthing Saga. Colonization stuff, mostly, and how "stasis" is like Worthing's "somec", it seems. And there was some conversation about Quincy maybe leaving Ender in stasis or something during the flight to Shakespeare that reminded me of an issue in Worthing about Jason not being able to wake the one passenger who kept is memory. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it's there.

I found it at least possible to read almost the entire book as homophobic propaganda. I felt like I kept getting beat over the head with "marriage is good", "monogamy is good", "traditional family structure is good", "nontraditional families result in f****** up kids that are a threat to humanity", etc etc.

The phrases "Ensign Akbar" and "What is love?" made me laugh.

I read almost the entire chapter that dealt with Graff in Ireland in an irish accent in my head.

Graff is awesome, and still my favorite character of around that time period. He retained enough of his awesome from EG.

My opinion of Abra kinda lowered. Everything around those scenes was... iffy. Not bad, but, I dunno, it felt a little uneasy.

The Assandra stuff and the gold bug stuff felt tacked-on and pointless. I think these are IGMS stories, or something, that were incorporated into EiE? (I really liked Assandra and her mother in their intro chapter, though)

the Alessandra intro chapter was a short story, and I think the Gold bug story was a comic.

I agree that Graff was one of the more awesome parts of the book, that is until suddenly one of his letters to Ender is hijacked and Stepford-ed into an epistle on dutiful wives, lotsa babies and bad homosexuals. Apparently the moral of the story of his life is that it has had no meaning or value because he didn't have any children from his own loins. :-p

Maybe not as much as anything in the Speaker series or EG, but certainly better than any Shadow books.

That's how I felt too.

Maybe just should go in the confessions thread.

I recently downloaded an mp3 of the last disc of the EiE audiobook for the sole purpose of hearing Card himself read the afterword... just so I could hear him say my name.

Neo-dragon, I've come to absolutely <3 finding posts where you mention being in acknowledgements. (And I don't less-than-three things very often.) If it were me, I would totally do the same thing.

Why, thank you! And here I thought that people probably found it obnoxious.

No! How could we possibly find constant reminders that you're mentioned in nearly every recent OSC book obnoxious? You're practically a main character!

What is Ender like in real life?

EDIT: Thanks! Normally I'm real good about that but I was writing in a hurry.

He's a pretty nice guy except that he can't stand people who mix up "your" and "you're". It's actually the real reason why he beat Stilson and Bonzo to death.

every time I see the name Quim though, I still shake my head a bit. I wonder if OSC is gonna change that the way he changed the term bugger to formic.

I can't believe I've just now realized what "google define Quim" was all about. I suppose that's why he killed off the character Quim.

I hate the name of Shakespeare for a planet. forgot to get that out there.

dumb. Ganges is a good planet name, Shakespeare is not.

At the risk of digging up an ancient topic, (but is it really a good idea to start a new topic?) i pretty much agree with your point of view about Ender in Exile. I was deeply disappointed by it and really hoped it would be better. Several things that drove me up a tree about it was most of these new characters and situations just weren't needed. It felt too much like the new versions of the old Star Wars movies. Do we really need extra special effects and details and Hayden Christensen or whatever his name is CGIed in with the original version was perfectly FINE? No...
It was as if he was using old and new characters alike, pretty much ALL of the characters to push his conservative point of view. Valentine is just OSC as a girl. She nags Ender for hours, it's a wonder he didn't make her go into stasis.
The whole plot involving Alessandra Toscano and Dorabella Toscano was pretty irritating. It was, AND THIS WILL BE A SPOILER, gross how she made her daughter try to seduce Ender. Icky, gross, Icky.
The captain was aggravating. I don't understand why Dorabella BOTHERED to try to make him love her, as if that is even possible. The way he screamed on Ender, I don't really think he'd make a good dad. But the book is a hammer that has, "Heterosexual monogamous marriages are ALWAYS better for children even when the parents are kind of warped and are somewhat dysfunctional." It is constantly being wacked on my head from EVERY character. Why was that scene with the woman trying to come on to that other scientist even NECESSARY? Who but a zombie says, "I want your braaaaaaains." I lack experience, but I doubt I'd try to seduce a guy like that! It's not very romantic or even very sexy.
I know the whole get married and have babies thing is a part of OSC's current shtick these days, but it's driving me crazy. It makes me want to ignore him, which is rude, and curl up with American Gods or something by Neil Gaiman instead where I know I won't get a lecture but a solid entertaining story instead. It's depressing when a young adult book is better than a book by one of your favourite authors. It would be annoying even if a hyper liberal did it. It's like his political lecturing and nagging is to LKH constant never-ending sex scenes.
Plus the Shakespeare colony didn't sound like a very fun place to live in terms of a reproduction lottery and marrying off teenage girls, not to mention all of the frustrated celibate men...

I really ought to try to ignore these later Ender books, but I keep hoping they'll be as good as the original, or even as good as a book like Lost Boys that makes me cry at the end, but it is a true let down.

*awaits tomatoes*

I don't think that you need to worry about ducking tomatoes. You'll find a fair amount of people who agree with you here. I'm not necessarily one of them, although you do make some very good points.

In any case, it's good to see a thoughtful newbie. Welcome to Pweb!

Welcome, welcome, and double welcome. Very well put, I couldn't agree more.

Thanks

I hate the name of Shakespeare for a planet. forgot to get that out there.

dumb. Ganges is a good planet name, Shakespeare is not.

At the risk of digging up an ancient topic, (but is it really a good idea to start a new topic?) i pretty much agree with your point of view about Ender in Exile. I was deeply disappointed by it and really hoped it would be better. Several things that drove me up a tree about it was most of these new characters and situations just weren't needed. It felt too much like the new versions of the old Star Wars movies. Do we really need extra special effects and details and Hayden Christensen or whatever his name is CGIed in with the original version was perfectly FINE? No...
It was as if he was using old and new characters alike, pretty much ALL of the characters to push his conservative point of view. Valentine is just OSC as a girl. She nags Ender for hours, it's a wonder he didn't make her go into stasis.
The whole plot involving Alessandra Toscano and Dorabella Toscano was pretty irritating. It was, AND THIS WILL BE A SPOILER, gross how she made her daughter try to seduce Ender. Icky, gross, Icky.
The captain was aggravating. I don't understand why Dorabella BOTHERED to try to make him love her, as if that is even possible. The way he screamed on Ender, I don't really think he'd make a good dad. But the book is a hammer that has, "Heterosexual monogamous marriages are ALWAYS better for children even when the parents are kind of warped and are somewhat dysfunctional." It is constantly being wacked on my head from EVERY character. Why was that scene with the woman trying to come on to that other scientist even NECESSARY? Who but a zombie says, "I want your braaaaaaains." I lack experience, but I doubt I'd try to seduce a guy like that! It's not very romantic or even very sexy.
I know the whole get married and have babies thing is a part of OSC's current shtick these days, but it's driving me crazy. It makes me want to ignore him, which is rude, and curl up with American Gods or something by Neil Gaiman instead where I know I won't get a lecture but a solid entertaining story instead. It's depressing when a young adult book is better than a book by one of your favourite authors. It would be annoying even if a hyper liberal did it. It's like his political lecturing and nagging is to LKH constant never-ending sex scenes.
Plus the Shakespeare colony didn't sound like a very fun place to live in terms of a reproduction lottery and marrying off teenage girls, not to mention all of the frustrated celibate men...

I really ought to try to ignore these later Ender books, but I keep hoping they'll be as good as the original, or even as good as a book like Lost Boys that makes me cry at the end, but it is a true let down.

*awaits tomatoes*

Well said, but I wouldn't call American Gods a children's book. that was my only disagreement.

As for, "I want your braaaaaaains" that can be easily explained by one of OSC's columns, he reviewed a book a while that suggests women do just that, specfically target men with the characteristics they most want in their children, in this case, tasty brains. and this is the subtle, realistic and elegant way he incorporated that idea into a scene.

I also think the "I want your braaaaaains" scientist seduction is sort of an apologia for the relationship between Novinha and Libo, which was written back when OSC was more honest about sex and the relationships between men and women. The parallels between their situations strike me very much as a, 'this is how I'd write this now.' sort of thing.

I know, but I've read so many stacks of YA books that were WAAAAAAAY better than EiE and some of the other Bean books which have been frustrating me for ages because how many pages can you devote to HAVE BABIES RIGHT NOW!!!! He ought to have a preface that says, "What are you doing reading?! You should be having babies!!! Right this second. Snap to it!"

It gets a bit old....

I also think the "I want your braaaaaains" scientist seduction is sort of an apologia for the relationship between Novinha and Libo, which was written back when OSC was more honest about sex and the relationships between men and women. The parallels between their situations strike me very much as a, 'this is how I'd write this now.' sort of thing.

But that was actually good and well written and subtle. It seems like he's deevolving to me. The scene with Novinha comfortin Libo was so sweet. This EiE scene, it's a wonder she didn't sprawl on the computers and say, "Fertilize me right now!" Which again is not very romantic or sexy or subtle....

*sigh*

I'm the only fan left...

*sigh*

I'm the only fan left...

It's not to say that I hate OSC... I do dig Magic Street quite a bit,. several Alvin books, The original EG except for a few political parts that bugged me... Lost Boys is first rate, Songmaster is sweet, but HARSH, then there's Wyrms to consider... I don't dig his political columns that much though as they tend to frustrate me and aggravate my IBS and the ES series would probably be a bit better without the go forth and have babies lectures every 3 pages... It's been driving me up a tree for years.

*sigh*

I'm the only fan left...

2:21

uhoh...

*sigh*
I'm the only fan left...

No, there's still two of us.

*sigh*

I'm the only fan left...

2:21

uhoh...

I can imagine Neo running around with a mask, cape, and underwear attempting to kill the director of the upcoming EG! "You ruined it!"

I'm actually not the type of fan who would do that. I'm pretty open-minded when it comes to adaptations. And even if they suck I just laugh at their crappiness and continue to enjoy the source material.

I'm far more likely to hunt down and destroy those traitorous "fans" who don't appreciate the later Ender/Shadow books!

*sweatdrop*

Hey there's a world outside Milagre...

I read it, I enjoyed it. Clarke is one of those authors I'll read just to feel the words, so I didn't really mind that the story was kind of unnecessary in terms of the big picture.

As for the 'braaaiiiins' bit, yeah I have to go with the consensus there's something strange about that. This is one of those things were knowledge of the author might transform the understanding of the art, but I'm pretty sure I'd see the way we keep returning and returning to this theme as a little weird if I didn't know about his 'views'. This isn't entirely out of left field in the enderverse though, I swear I remember Miro doing a similar monologue on the importance of avoiding pre-marital sex in Speaker.

Clarke is one of those authors I'll read just to feel the words, so I didn't really mind that the story was kind of unnecessary in terms of the big picture.

As in Arthur C.?

(You need to stop letting this school nonsense take up all your time; post more! Please.)

Ahh, on the 'premarital sex is bad and outside marriage children are wicked and homosexuals shouldn't even exist' note, I think I'm beginning to be sort of desensitized to it.

After all, every time I can think of all the colonists in Hundred Worlds and think they wouldn't share the views, because quite honestly, it's just a social product/prejudice, imo. Every place has its differing people from the majority, and eventually those former minorities get some real say. I doubt in the colonies with xy lot of established members it would be any different. In my head, I'm secretly fanning all those omgee wicked souls and being happy they didn't make it to the books before OSC could slam them with a writer!hammer and make them completely conforming.

Or I can think of every so called minor character that either died prematurely or didn't voice their opinion on the topic where the others have- after all, even those could be the nonconformist bastards giving me some hope in Enderverse's humanity.

(Now I'm running away, before my ficbrain awakens and demands attention to stories involving some poly pagan lesbian and similar atrocities.)

As in Arthur C.?

(You need to stop letting this school nonsense take up all your time; post more! Please.)

Doh.

This is exactly why I shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the internet or an exam paper at the moment. I'm leaving that unedited to remind me of that fact.

ok so i bought the book shortly after it came out. then didn't read it. i started reading it in january, but got sidetracked after a couple chapters (i went to sleep and then got too busy and kind of forgot to pick the book up again) anyway my wife and i took a 2 week trip to see her family (and for her to be in her friend's wedding) and i couldn't find any books i wanted to spend my money on, so i chose to bring along EiE.

i can't say that i loved this book. it will never hold a candle to EG or speaker in my heart. i did find that with so few distractions, i couldn't put it down. i really enjoyed it. perhaps because i miss ender. it may not have been a necessary story, but few stories are.

i am a man of character development, so i guess i take my stories at face value. i don't read into things deeply enough to attach OSC's "homosexuality is bad" and "have babies" ideas into this book. in fact i try to forget his idiotic stance on certain issues (and i do a very good job of it)

i thought that the bean's kid thing was tacked on and a bit poorly constructed (but i feel that way about the entire shadow series) but i'm glad it was short. actually if we could erase all of the shadow series and take those items out of this book i would be absolutely thrilled with EiE.

i actually look forward to re-reading EG when he changes the ending. i will keep my copy of the original ending though, because it has suited me just fine up until now.

on a side note, i never come into the enderverse section of this forum, but i wanted to talk about EiE now that i've finished it. so i'm sorry that i'm resurrecting such an old thread. anyway, i just wanted to say that having read this thread from page one tonight, i find some of the views and reviews to be rather harsh. i'm glad i read this book before coming into this discussion because it would put me off reading it. seriously, if reading OSC books is such a pain to some of you, why do you even bother?

Well.. I'm not sure if I will read the next book after EiE, but I have... hope.
It's sort of like reading the Merry Series hoping that LKH can go 100 pages without cayenne pepper.
And she did. So I liked that book. But I have given up on Anita Blake.
It's the way I watch a terrible show hoping that it will be a good episode, but it seldom is.
i think I should read Neil Gaiman and Wraethu instead because I simply cannot stand the salt of NAGGAGE OSC needs to drench every page with.
I know he's conservative. I don't agree with every premise of conservatism, but there are some useful ones, but STILL must every 2 pages be a lecture about marriage and babies?
I'd like to get married and have babies, but having that whole traditional sex role stuff shoved down my throat makes me want to become wanton and irresponsible just to be annoying and rebellious.
It's sort of like being jumped on for liking the Harry Potter books better than the movies. I liked Orson Scott Card when he could go pages without too much salt, he'd put just a slight bit of it instead of opening a box of Morton's salt and just pouring it on like it's water. It's so heavy handed and gets in the way of the story.

So I'll read other things, but, I just keep having hope. I haven't read Empire yet though.

Plus I LIKED the ending of Ender's Game. It was JUST FINE. I just felt like this book was like... a person having a tail or something. I don't know....

Chromesthesia - if you thought the conservative salt was sprinkled too generously in EiE (which I didn't), I would RUN from Empire. I actually couldn't finish it and I don't even hold any strong political views. It was horrific. We do have a thread on it in the "other works" section.

OT question - do you have chromesthesia? I find synesthesia very interesting.

Chromesthesia - if you thought the conservative salt was sprinkled too generously in EiE (which I didn't), I would RUN from Empire. I actually couldn't finish it and I don't even hold any strong political views. It was horrific. We do have a thread on it in the "other works" section.

OT question - do you have chromesthesia? I find synesthesia very interesting.

I do. I can smell and taste music and I think of music in terms of colours based on the key of the song, I can feel it on my skin and abstract concepts and people have smells that don't exist to me.

I didn't think that was possible I think I have much to learn.