Ender in Exile: in stores/libraries now - Spoilers!

Discuss all things pertaining to the EnderVerse milieu.
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Postby zeroguy » Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:56 am

Bought EiE today. Starting reading it.

Stopped reading in the middle of the second page. Theresa BAWWing over Ender being gone pissed me off.

I'll restart reading again, of course... but damn, I didn't expect it that early.
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Postby Tcashon » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:12 pm

Sticking it out - halfway through...

I am starting to like it a little more, a couple of scenes still feel wrong for the characters, but on the whole I am starting to get into it.

The book is also filling in some of the plot holes from SOtG and bring up so new potential mysteries as well.

I'll have a more fleshed out review when I finish - I think it's worth the read for Ender fans though.
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Postby Craig » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:48 pm

I read it. It's not really any surprise, but I think it's the worst Ender book. I didn't even FEEL like an Ender book. There's a stronger continuity between characters in Ender's game and Speaker for the Dead than there is with EG and this. There were a couple nice scenes, but overall the entire thing either felt entirely too slow (the voyage) or entirely too fast (the last 60 or so pages). OSC's problem is that he writes without an idea of where he's going. He writes to FIND the story, instead of writing to TELL the story.

I was very disappointed.

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Postby Person122 » Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:19 pm

I've finished the first 9 chapters, and so far the book seems better than what others have said. The pacing seemed just fine, other than that, there isn't much else to say. I noticed that EiE seems to be the only Ender novel that doesn't have the chapters named. (except for AWoG, but that likely counts as a novella, not a novel).
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Postby neo-dragon » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:37 pm

I've finally finished EiE after being "almost finished" for days now. I had actually started typing a semi-lengthy review, but then, partway through, I realized that I suck at writing reviews :P

So I decided to sum things up as simply as I could: EiE tells a story that didn't need to be told. It has its flaws, and it's not the best book in the series. But I am very glad that OSC wrote this book. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, and I look forward to subsequent readings in years to come.

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Postby Quack » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:26 pm

I really enjoyed reading it too. I felt that EiE brought the reader closer to Ender than any of the other books in the EG series... with the exception of Ender's Game itself. It was a nice little re-union between reader and Ender. :P

Also, cool that Valentine got some play, too.
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Postby Syphon the Sun » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:45 pm

I'm in basically the same boat as Jason. (Although, I secretly think he only likes it because he was in the acknowledgments, again.)

It wasn't his best, of course, but it wasn't terrible. The story had been mostly covered already, so I didn't really get as much out of it as I had hoped, but it was a nice little book to tie up a few loose ends.
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Postby Person122 » Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:55 pm

Right now, I'm at about chapter 20 or so (I don't really want to bother to check) (I'm at the part where Val and Ender get to Ganges) and although I haven't finished it 100%, there are a few thing I'd like to say. First off, I like how OSC takes a (relativity) old story (chapter 15 of Ender's Game, "Speaker for the Dead") and makes it a lot more detailed and interesting. I noticed that there seems to be a stronger sense of the relationships between the characters than in any other book except maybe for EG, SftD, or ES etc. OSC explored some of the relationships that had never been known before, like Ender and Graff and Ender and Wiggin Parents. Based on some of the things some PWEBers had said, I had started with the book not having a very good out look upon what was to come, but the book seemed to totally exceed my expectations. Furthermore, I'd say that the pacing seemed fine, dispite what I had heard from others, though I didn't really like how Ender was 13 and then the play and other things happened, then all of the sudden Ender was 15 and the ship was entering the Shakespeare system. While reading the parts about the flight, I kept trying to find out why others had said the pacing was too slow, but when I realized that the flight really wasn't that long at all (maybe that was because I was literally submerged in EiE while reading).

In conclusion, I think that at least the first twenty or so chapters of EiE is possibly one of the best Ender books to date. I'm not really looking forward to reading the rest, which was likely influenced by some reviews of the book, (I would say that my decisions, actions, and perception of the world are far too greatly influenced by the others' actions, decisions, and perception of the world.); I still can't say whether or not Orson Scott Card could make the first 300 pages of a book good and the rest a bunch of abysmal bull s***, but I do have hope for this author that has impressed me more than once before.

(edit) Sorry about using an obvious taboo word, I'll try to censor out what I write or just avoid using obscenities at all.
Last edited by Person122 on Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"And no one is a better observer of the folkways of the adolescent male than the adolescent female." - Shadow of the Hegemon

"... Some times lies were more dependable than the truth" - Ender's Game

"He [[Locke]] has influence but he doesn't have power"
"In my experience, influence is power"

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Postby neo-dragon » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:21 pm

The one other thing that I really do want to say about EiE is that it's worth reading for some of the chapter opening e-mails if nothing else. Ones like Graff and Ender's final letters to each other, and Ender's letter to his parents are probably why OSC says that this book is among his best. I can see how some people could be moved to tears by those letters.
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Theoretical Probability in EiE

Postby Quack » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:14 am

I wanted to know if any math nerdz could expand on this for me...

There's a part of EiE where Abra and Ender are talking about the likelihood of finding another cave with living [gold] bugs inside, after Po and Sel found one with recently-dead bugs and a live larvae...

Excerpt:

"Just because the aluminum bugs were all dead doesn't mean we won't find another cave that has living bugs, right?" said Abra.
"We might have found the only survivors," said Ender.
"But Papa says the odds are against that. He says it would be too coincidental if the longest-surviving gold bugs just happened to be the ones that Uncle Sel and Po happened to discover."
"Your father is not a mathematician," said Ender. "He doesn't understand probability."
"What do you mean?"
"Sel and Po did find the cave with the living gold bug larvae in it. Therefore the chance of their finding it, in this causal universe, is one hundred percent. Because it happened."
"Oh."

Is this an appropriate vernacular usage of the concept of probability? I'm not a mathematician at all, but I am interested in things like this, as well as game theory, especially when used to analyze historical events.

Thoughts?
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Postby neo-dragon » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:18 am

I'm no probability expert but Ender's logic seems a bit flawed to me too. The probability of them having found the goldbugs is obviously 100% because it did happen. This is an after-the-fact probability statement that really has no meaning or value. Everything that has happened technically has 100% chance of having happened, because it did happen, but that probably wasn't the probability of it happening before it happened, unless you believe in total predetermination, in which case everything either has a 100% probability of happening or 0% and we just don't know it yet.
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Postby Person122 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:51 am

I'd say that Ender was just being sarcastic. When speaking of probability, it would likely be inappropriate to speak of an event in the past in present tense, just because it already happened, so the probability that it happened would be 100%, where as the probability that the event would happen exactly the same would be difficult. I'm not a mathematician my self (though there are some people I may be able to consult with), I don't know whether my statements would be valid from a mathematical point of view, or whether or not anyone would be able to understand what I said in order to question the validity of the statement.
"And no one is a better observer of the folkways of the adolescent male than the adolescent female." - Shadow of the Hegemon

"... Some times lies were more dependable than the truth" - Ender's Game

"He [[Locke]] has influence but he doesn't have power"
"In my experience, influence is power"

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Postby locke » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:54 am

I thought Ender was going to say that the chances of finding another living colony were the same as the chances of finding the first one, just finding one doesn't change the probability outcome. Like say you flip a coin and come up with nine heads in a row, the probability that the next time you flip it it will come up heads is still 50%, the probability taken as an individual coin flip is not any more or less likely. Now the probability of flipping ten heads in a row is quite low when taken as a set, but taken as individual events the probability remains the same.

Oddly I think there's a different flaw here. gold is a lot heavier than aluminum, meaning aluminum bugs would probably be more likely to escape their tunnels, right?
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby Person122 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:00 pm

Well the aluminum bugs still might have been too heavy to escape. Though knowing Earthbound bugs, some of whom can lift hundreds of times their own weight, the Shakespearean bugs could have been able to get away. (no reference was intended to the SNES rpg, and the capitalization was accidental; I've never really used the world "earthbound" to refer to anything but the game.)
"And no one is a better observer of the folkways of the adolescent male than the adolescent female." - Shadow of the Hegemon

"... Some times lies were more dependable than the truth" - Ender's Game

"He [[Locke]] has influence but he doesn't have power"
"In my experience, influence is power"

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Postby neo-dragon » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:50 pm

locke wrote:Oddly I think there's a different flaw here. gold is a lot heavier than aluminum, meaning aluminum bugs would probably be more likely to escape their tunnels, right?


That's a very good point.

The other problem with the whole probability discussion is that Abra (or his father) wasn't just talking about the odds of them having found the bugs, but rather the odds of that particular colony of bugs being the only living one. They still didn't know if that was the case or not, so Ender isn't even correct in saying that there's a 100% chance that it did happen.

In any case, since Ender is much smarter than any of us, I just figured that he was teasing poor Abra to some extent, although it seems cruel since Abra isn't too "book smart" but he hangs on Ender's every word, so he may have a messed up understanding of probability for the rest of his life. :lol:
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Postby Person122 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:41 pm

(Note that this is a combination of one of my previous post and a new post)

Right now, I'm at about chapter 20 or so (I don't really want to bother to check) (I'm at the part where Val and Ender get to Ganges) and although I haven't finished it 100%, there are a few thing I'd like to say. First off, I like how OSC takes a (relativity) old story (chapter 15 of Ender's Game, "Speaker for the Dead") and makes it a lot more detailed and interesting. I noticed that there seems to be a stronger sense of the relationships between the characters than in any other book except maybe for EG, SftD, or ES etc. OSC explored some of the relationships that had never been known before, like Ender and Graff and Ender and Wiggin Parents. Based on some of the things some PWEBers had said, I had started with the book not having a very good out look upon what was to come, but the book seemed to totally exceed my expectations. Furthermore, I'd say that the pacing seemed fine, despite what I had heard from others, though I didn't really like how Ender was 13 and then the play and other things happened, then all of the sudden Ender was 15 and the ship was entering the Shakespeare system. While reading the parts about the flight, I kept trying to find out why others had said the pacing was too slow, but when I realized that the flight really wasn't that long at all (maybe that was because I was literally submerged in EiE while reading).

In conclusion, I think that at least the first twenty or so chapters of EiE is possibly one of the best Ender books to date. I'm not really looking forward to reading the rest, which was likely influenced by some reviews of the book, (I would say that my decisions, actions, and perception of the world are far too greatly influenced by the others' actions, decisions, and perception of the world.); I still can't say whether or not Orson Scott Card could make the first 300 pages of a book good and the rest a bunch of abysmal bull s***, but I do have hope for this author that has impressed me more than once before.

Last Chapters Impressions: (I typed up this section a few hours after finishing the book)

I'd say that the last chapters were not as good as the previous, for various reasons. First off, I think it's starting to get annoying that Ender Wiggin can some how change a radicalist's view about the world; I can see that Card got the Idea from A War of Gifts. Second of all, I think that the book seemed to lack a firm conclusion, but I guess that given the sake of continuity, there really couldn't be one, though it's anyone's guess why Card opted out to put in the fate of Achilles II/Randall Firth/Arkanian Delphiki. I like how Card when back to explained some of the things like how Ender came to be Ender the Xenocide and other things.

Also, I seem to not like the name "Arkanian Delphiki", but that's just me. Through out the Entire book, especially in E-Mails, Card put a bunch of references to Ender's Friends and Col. Graff from Battle School into the book, whereas for the rest of the Ender Saga starting from Ender's Game Chapter 15, they went on to be unmentioned.

Overall, the final Ganges part lowers my impression of EiE by just a bit, so I still think that the book was one of the best of the Ender Series; Definitely something I'll read again, some time latter of course. For telling a story that had already been told, by himself, OSC did a fine job of retelling the story; new features were fine but the wholeness of the original is still intact.

4.5 out of 5 stars.
"And no one is a better observer of the folkways of the adolescent male than the adolescent female." - Shadow of the Hegemon

"... Some times lies were more dependable than the truth" - Ender's Game

"He [[Locke]] has influence but he doesn't have power"
"In my experience, influence is power"

Orson Scott Card Wiki http://ansible.wikia.com

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Postby Person122 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:26 pm

lyons24000 wrote:I got a headache reading the first couple of chapters at the bookstore. I hate how he makes the characters mention things like, "That will never happen" or something where they talk about an event that will occur in the future and we know that it is going to happen but they don't. He has done that more then once and it is annoying.

I had to put it down after about twenty minutes. I really hope it gets better. He's dragging it on and on. Almost like he wanted to make the book longer so he stretched the dialogue to accomplish that...


Everyone in Ender's Universe seems so idiotic to not realize that Ender wasn't the one who wrote The Hive Queen. Especially to Graff, and Ender's friends, I should seem obvious that Ender knew more about the buggers than any other human.

Concerning the dialogue, I actually like reading some of the things the characters say. Other talking he could have done with out, but at least there are some good quote to quote from the book. If lyons24000 was right about Card stretching the dialogue just to expand the book, I would be perfectly fine with a smaller book, if it be better, and Scott could have expanded the Achilles II part to suffice. Seriously, I don't even think the EiE didn't even close that perticular plot tread, in fact, the entire book it self seems like some of the short stories, and AWoG, it doesn't seem like an essential read from a story reader's point of view.
"And no one is a better observer of the folkways of the adolescent male than the adolescent female." - Shadow of the Hegemon

"... Some times lies were more dependable than the truth" - Ender's Game

"He [[Locke]] has influence but he doesn't have power"
"In my experience, influence is power"

Orson Scott Card Wiki http://ansible.wikia.com

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Postby Quack » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:52 pm

neo-dragon wrote:
In any case, since Ender is much smarter than any of us, I just figured that he was teasing poor Abra to some extent, although it seems cruel since Abra isn't too "book smart" but he hangs on Ender's every word, so he may have a messed up understanding of probability for the rest of his life. :lol:


lol... I can totally see this being the case. XD

Yeah, it seems like Ender's assessment is designed for the short term to prove a point - i.e. that Abra can't just assume x because y - and not to be like, the topic of a peer-reviewed thesis. :P
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Postby Valentine » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:14 pm

I'm only on page 29 (just started), so if my comments are merely echoes, ignore them. I'm scared to read the rest of the comments until I'm finished, because the thread clearly states "Spoilers"

On the positive note, I would like to say that the moment I opened this book, I felt a squeal of excitement to be reading a new Ender novel. Whether the story was necessary or not; whether it lives up to the past novels or not; I will enjoy it. I feel as though it was more meant to be written for fans, rather than to be an addition to an already strong quartet of Ender books (Bean series excluded). I don't know a thing about Card's intentions - I've been so out of the loop for a couple years up until my recent rediscovery of Pweb - but that is how I am viewing it.

On the other hand, by page 30, I am irritated with almost everyone. I feel as though Peter and Valentine are far more intelligent than the book gives them credit for. By this time, I have the distinct impression that they would not be fooled by the manipulation by their parents. I feel as though they would have derived at the same conclusions on their own, but I don't feel as though the goading parents were necessary. In acutuality, I feel as though the family would be manipulating eachother on an extreme ammount of levels - more like a "he doesn't know that I know that he knows that I know that he is Locke" than "Valentine and Peter are oblivious to our knowledge."
Also, Theresa is extremely intelligent. Her emotions are, of course, a valid addition to the story, and I feel as though she should be in crisis over what she wishes would happen. I do NOT feel as though John Paul needs to be telling her that Ender must stay in space. I want to believe that deep down she knows and accepts that fact, rather than taking the sappy tribulations that she seems to facing in the book at face value.
The one manipulation I saw as brillliantly of-character was John Paul's manipulation of Peter by placing him in Ender's shadow. I honestly feel that Peter's desire for acclaim and power would place him at such bias that he would not see through his father's comment so clearly. I feel as though Valentine should have picked up on this comment for what it was, though.
I just suppose that I feel everyone in the story is far more intelligent than they seem to be appearing by page 30. Perhaps once I read on things will become clearer, or perhaps I'll just become more frustrated. Irregardless, my excitement and adoration for Card's novels won't be supressed simply by my irritance at a few of the characterizations.

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Postby locke » Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:06 pm

I like your comments, Nicole, and pretty much agree with them. :)
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby randomicicle » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:47 pm

Funny how it went from people realizing why they're not that much of a fan anymore to something like 'Do the covers suck? Vote now'.
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Postby locke » Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:25 am

The one other thing that I really do want to say about EiE is that it's worth reading for some of the chapter opening e-mails if nothing else. Ones like Graff and Ender's final letters to each other, and Ender's letter to his parents are probably why OSC says that this book is among his best. I can see how some people could be moved to tears by those letters.
missed this post before, but the epistles of Ender in Exile drove me out of my skull and are in fact the main reason I disliked the book a lot. they are so unnatural. so lectury, so completely not from the heads of the characters but from a single unadaptable perspective. Aggrandizing is a good word to describe them. They more often than not turned my stomach rather than moved me to tears. :-P

I keep forgetting to mention it, but has OSC never worn a shoe with steel toes before? The only people who wouldn't be aware they had steel toes shoes are paraplegics. if you walk, you're aware of them. you can feel them if you move your toes in your shoes at all, you feel them when you put your feet in your shoes. It's impossible Ender wouldn't have been aware of them had he been wearing them. I'm not sure but I think that's a retcon, and it makes no sense to me. otoh, it could be something graff mentions at the end of EG and I never noticed before. :-P
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Postby lyons24000 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:44 pm

I am not finished with the book (almost there--I go to bookstores on Saturdays to read it since my library does not have it) but I must say that the ending is getting better. If the ending was a separate book then I would have to rate it third fave after SftD and EG. However, I did feel that Card was thinking, "Crap! I started this little Alessandra plot line with Ender and I can't have them end up together so I'll just finish it. It was meaningless and it made me very, very aggravated because I like Alessandra waaaay more then I like Novinha. I pretty much hate Novinha and wish that she had never entered the story or had died before ruining Ender's life. But Alessandra was different. I think she would have been good--or at least better--for Ender. This bugged me and I hated to see how quickly the Alessandra plot ended. One minute she's in love with Ender and willing to give herself to him and then the next she's engaged to Po.

And I went on for way to long. I just hate that this storyline was added when it did nothing to further the book.
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Postby Starlight » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:12 pm

...I did feel that Card was thinking, "Crap! I started this little Alessandra plot line with Ender and I can't have them end up together so I'll just finish it. It was meaningless and it made me very, very aggravated because I like Alessandra waaaay more then I like Novinha. I pretty much hate Novinha and wish that she had never entered the story or had died before ruining Ender's life. But Alessandra was different. I think she would have been good--or at least better--for Ender. This bugged me and I hated to see how quickly the Alessandra plot ended. One minute she's in love with Ender and willing to give herself to him and then the next she's engaged to Po.
I completely agree with you! I really didnt like Novinha and i think that it is really unfortunate that Ender ends up with her, too bad...

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Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:04 pm

I pretty much hate Novinha and wish that she had never entered the story or had died before ruining Ender's life.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold the flippin' phone. How, pray tell, did she ruin Ender's life again? Because I missed that part of the book.

He was in love with her and he made his own decisions. She was a strong, highly intelligent woman who, yes, had some serious issues that he was willing to put up with/help her through. He was a strong, highly intelligent man who, also, had some serious issues that she was willing to put up with.

We know what about Alessandra? That her mom and grandma sucked and she disliked that? She may be a perfectly wonderful person but she wouldn't necessarily have been better for Ender, not to mention it was just bad timing. Too young.[/i]
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Postby lyons24000 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:10 pm



Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold the flippin' phone. How, pray tell, did she ruin Ender's life again? Because I missed that part of the book.
I'll give you a reason:

She is the main contributing factor in the death of Ender Wiggin because she joined the CotM order because she blamed Ender for Quim's death because she just knew that everything and everyone was out to get her.

Self-Centered Woman! :P
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Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:18 pm

Okay, but I already countered that whole silly point of yours: he made his own choices.

He chose to stay there with her, knowing that she didn't really hold him responsible for Quim's death, because he would rather be with her than without her.

Just to reiterate: Ender chose to follow her. HIS choice.
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Postby neo-dragon » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:47 pm

I gotta say, I'm not exactly a fan of Novinha. I'm not sure why Ender, Libo, and Marcao all loved her. I'm glad that some part of Ender gets to have a new life with Wang-mu. Her, I like.
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Postby Starlight » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:10 am

ok, so i dont really think that this has anything to do with ender and lusitania and all that, but did the age difference bother any one else beside me in EG and SftD? I dont know if this has been brought up anywhere else but here i go:
I thought that EG was brilliant, especially in the way that deals with children in a time of war. Ender was treated horribly and in the end there really isnt a 'happy' conclusion. I mean ya, the buggers forgave him and everyone thought that he was hero at the time. But his entire childhood had been taken from him and he would never get to go back to earth or see his parents again (but i do know that he corresponds with them somewhat in EiE). In SftD though, he is totally grown up and a completely different person. I just didnt like it, I first of all couldnt see a grown up Ender, to me he would always be a child struggling. And second was the fact that he had kind of become a pacifist. He entire life up until the end of the bugger war had been about the military and training, but then he went of this quest and became a totally different person which i guess makes sense but I didnt really like it.

I dont think I am making any sense here, sorry :roll:

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Postby locke » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:28 am

In SftD though, he is totally grown up and a completely different person.
yeah, it happens to a lot of us. :) understandable if you don't get it or particularly like it. It's not an easy thought to be comfortable with when you're young. :-P

I'm gonna have to say that I come down on the Ender/Novinha side of things, they wound up being pretty good for each other in a lot of ways, Novinha was a bit more crazy with the whole convent thingy, but she had good reasons.

every time I see the name Quim though, I still shake my head a bit. I wonder if OSC is gonna change that the way he changed the term bugger to formic. :D

I also thought the Peter/WangMu thing was more than a little trite, but it's been ages since I last read Xenocide or Children of the Mind.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:22 am

I'm glad Ender-as-Peter got to be with Wang-Mu and that he had that second chance at a happy life, free of all that guilt he carried.

But I also liked Novinha and her entire dysfunctional family, and I especially liked that someone like Ender could and did find something beautiful, good, and worthwhile in all of them.
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Postby neo-dragon » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:41 am

I apologize in advance for furthering the derailment of a thread that's
supposed to be about EiE:

Also: MAJOR "SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD" and "XENOCIDE" SPOILERS (just in case ;))
Novinha was a bit more crazy with the whole convent thingy, but she had good reasons.
She did? And what were those, again? Being too self-absorbed to care about anyone's grief but her own? Maybe I'm being harsh, but there's something about Novinha that makes her hard for me to like. I think it has something to do with the way that she doesn't seem to be all that loving to the people who she claims to love so much. She seems more concerned with sparing herself emotional pain. A good example is how she refused to marry Libo to "protect him", which all but ruined two families because she couldn't risk losing him to the piggies. That wasn't really her choice to make. In her fight with Miro shortly after Quim dies, he says something to her out of anger that I think has at least some truth to it:

"You don't know how to love people. You only know how to own them. And because people will never act just like you want them to, Mother, you'll always feel betrayed. And because eventually everybody dies, you'll always feel cheated. But you're the cheat, Mother. You're the one who uses our love for you to try to control us."

I'd probably feel differently about Novinha if there were actually times when she acted lovingly toward anyone, but I can't think of any. She only seemed to express love by going nuts when she'd lost or feared losing someone, which is just being possessive.
every time I see the name Quim though, I still shake my head a bit. I wonder if OSC is gonna change that the way he changed the term bugger to formic. :D
huh?
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Postby Person122 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:44 pm

With all the ways OSC has screwed up the stories, I kind of wish he or someone else would just rewrite the entire EnderVerse but somewhat having the same story. What does everyone else think?
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Postby locke » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:08 am

every time I see the name Quim though, I still shake my head a bit. I wonder if OSC is gonna change that the way he changed the term bugger to formic. :D
huh?
Google "define quim"
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Postby Starlight » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:09 am

every time I see the name Quim though, I still shake my head a bit. I wonder if OSC is gonna change that the way he changed the term bugger to formic. :D
huh?
Google "define quim"
lol :lol:


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