Shadow Series = Fail

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Shadow Series = Fail

Postby keats » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:41 am

sorry if I'm making anyone angry, but the Shadow series failed miserably, imho. Still fun reads and all because it's so easy to like Bean, but...

For many of the reasons that EG and SftD were amazing novels (it almost seemed like they actually could happen), the Shadow Series just didn't cut it.

1. Achilles would never be put in charge of anything once he was identified as a serial killer. Achilles never actually accomplishes anything before people start putting him in control of national militaries. Hitler won the Iron Cross and was a war hero. Napoleon was a respected officer in the French military. Achilles was a convicted murderer as a child. He might have tested high enough to get into battle school, but so did about 1000 other kids. And he didn't last one day. He had a glaring weakness and that weakness was exploited effectively. Nobody would have "used" him. They would have locked him up and thrown away the key. Russia's, China's, India's and Peter's "use" of him is ridiculous. Ok, I'll let this psychopath loose, but it will be ok because Bean and Petra are in hiding.

...

Bean had a network as well. All it would have taken was one post from Bean and Peter's tenure as Hegemon would have and should have ended given his disgraceful and obviously ambitious and manipulative tactics.

2. Nobody would have ever let Bean command troops in the field. Plan strategy? Play games? Even command ships "as if" it were a game? Sure. There were good reasons for having children play Ender's game. But to command armed troops in combat--the best, most promising military mind on earth? In fire fights as a child? Pffff... Come on. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

3. Bean would have killed Achilles. Killing Achilles would not necessarily have had anything to do with vengeance. We kill rabid dogs because they are dangerous and uncontrollable. Bean would have killed him because Achilles was far worse than a rabid dog. Serial killers are completely out of control and the penchant of Russia, China, India and apparently Peter Wiggin to think "hey, we can use this mentally and emotionally disturbed serial killer" is more than enough reason to suspect that Achilles would be a menace to humankind forever. The novels take ends/means relationships to the level of absurdity in both directions.

There is never a lack of evil villains to defeat even if we have to invent them out of thin air--just look at our current events. No need to pull truly dangerous people out of custody in order to justify everyone else in the world giving up their own hegemony. Sure, we create our own enemies a lot of the time, but the suggestion in the Shadow series is that Achilles is so pursuasive and cunning as to be the most dangerous person on earth as a leader. There is no worse danger than Achilles. Extreme nationalism pales in comparison. Risking freeing him from imprisonment is akin to betting your entire life savings on a very risky bet that will net you $1. The risk is just not worth the reward even for an ambitious teenager like Peter. And xenophobic societies like China would never take the risk even if Achilles had Bean's personality.

The real kicker for me though was...

4. Kids are still kids. No matter how intelligent they are, no matter how empathic, children are still children. They lack experience which is and will always be the best teacher. They are emotional--ESPECIALLY the really smart ones. They are hungry. They often have to go to the bathroom. Please stop the helicopter. Are we at the target site yet? And children, especially ones who are told that they are brilliant without restriction, are given to something far worse than stupidity--arrogance. The beginning of wisdom is realizing how little we know, and children haven't had the opportunities to figure that out yet.

The children in these novels just don't act like children--even gifted ones. Bean acts like an even-keeled adult all through the novels--almost like a robot. It feels like he's on a prozac drip. Someone with his upbringing should be working with whole teams of psychiatrists.

He's too perfect. High IQ does not equal perfection. All a high IQ means is that someone has the ability to see things in more ways. It doesn't mean they s/he always makes the right decisions/does the right things like Saint Bean does.

I still enjoyed the novels, still love Bean, but I don't think they measure up to the Hugo/Nebula award winners--not even in the same universe really.

K~
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Postby NominalBeast » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:06 am

While I'm too lazy right now to answer 1-3 and most of 4, I can answer the one about Bean.

Anton's Key.

That is all.

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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:55 am

OMGWTFBBQ
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Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:04 pm

My very abridged answers:

1. Lots of charisma, a highly developed mind that allows him to connect with anyone and plan ahead, and the fact that you're the only Battle School student who hasn't returned home is more than enough reason to add Achilles to your crew. Oh, and Hitler participated in the Beer Hall Putsch before the Nazis were in control, so he himself has a bad past of his own (not that I combine between that and being a serial murderer, but still..)

2. You gotta remember, Bean was one of Ender's crew. For the rest of the earth, they were godlike, even more important than the other Battle School students. And also, it took much convincing from Bean, and a lot of time, to get him into the Thai army. From there on, there was no proof needed.

I'll continue afterwards.
Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down?
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Postby Jayelle » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:16 pm

What Shadow books? I've deleted them from my personal canon.
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Postby neo-dragon » Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:57 am

Ender snobs...
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Re: Shadow Series = Fail

Postby greenbeans16 » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:54 pm

sorry if I'm making anyone angry, but the Shadow series failed miserably, imho. Still fun reads and all because it's so easy to like Bean, but...

For many of the reasons that EG and SftD were amazing novels (it almost seemed like they actually could happen), the Shadow Series just didn't cut it.

1. Achilles would never be put in charge of anything once he was identified as a serial killer. Achilles never actually accomplishes anything before people start putting him in control of national militaries. Hitler won the Iron Cross and was a war hero. Napoleon was a respected officer in the French military. Achilles was a convicted murderer as a child. He might have tested high enough to get into battle school, but so did about 1000 other kids. And he didn't last one day. He had a glaring weakness and that weakness was exploited effectively. Nobody would have "used" him. They would have locked him up and thrown away the key. Russia's, China's, India's and Peter's "use" of him is ridiculous. Ok, I'll let this psychopath loose, but it will be ok because Bean and Petra are in hiding.

...

Bean had a network as well. All it would have taken was one post from Bean and Peter's tenure as Hegemon would have and should have ended given his disgraceful and obviously ambitious and manipulative tactics.

2. Nobody would have ever let Bean command troops in the field. Plan strategy? Play games? Even command ships "as if" it were a game? Sure. There were good reasons for having children play Ender's game. But to command armed troops in combat--the best, most promising military mind on earth? In fire fights as a child? Pffff... Come on. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

3. Bean would have killed Achilles. Killing Achilles would not necessarily have had anything to do with vengeance. We kill rabid dogs because they are dangerous and uncontrollable. Bean would have killed him because Achilles was far worse than a rabid dog. Serial killers are completely out of control and the penchant of Russia, China, India and apparently Peter Wiggin to think "hey, we can use this mentally and emotionally disturbed serial killer" is more than enough reason to suspect that Achilles would be a menace to humankind forever. The novels take ends/means relationships to the level of absurdity in both directions.

There is never a lack of evil villains to defeat even if we have to invent them out of thin air--just look at our current events. No need to pull truly dangerous people out of custody in order to justify everyone else in the world giving up their own hegemony. Sure, we create our own enemies a lot of the time, but the suggestion in the Shadow series is that Achilles is so pursuasive and cunning as to be the most dangerous person on earth as a leader. There is no worse danger than Achilles. Extreme nationalism pales in comparison. Risking freeing him from imprisonment is akin to betting your entire life savings on a very risky bet that will net you $1. The risk is just not worth the reward even for an ambitious teenager like Peter. And xenophobic societies like China would never take the risk even if Achilles had Bean's personality.

The real kicker for me though was...

4. Kids are still kids. No matter how intelligent they are, no matter how empathic, children are still children. They lack experience which is and will always be the best teacher. They are emotional--ESPECIALLY the really smart ones. They are hungry. They often have to go to the bathroom. Please stop the helicopter. Are we at the target site yet? And children, especially ones who are told that they are brilliant without restriction, are given to something far worse than stupidity--arrogance. The beginning of wisdom is realizing how little we know, and children haven't had the opportunities to figure that out yet.

The children in these novels just don't act like children--even gifted ones. Bean acts like an even-keeled adult all through the novels--almost like a robot. It feels like he's on a prozac drip. Someone with his upbringing should be working with whole teams of psychiatrists.

He's too perfect. High IQ does not equal perfection. All a high IQ means is that someone has the ability to see things in more ways. It doesn't mean they s/he always makes the right decisions/does the right things like Saint Bean does.

I still enjoyed the novels, still love Bean, but I don't think they measure up to the Hugo/Nebula award winners--not even in the same universe really.

K~
So people flying around in boxes and spliting souls switching bodies is more realistic than this?
The Ender books aren't meant to be completely logical. Go read a text book.

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Postby Darth Petra » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:06 pm

I think the Shadow books were fun to read, but Speaker seemed more intellegent. They were just very differnt from Speaker, I think. I don't think they were terrible.
And I didn't find Bean perfect. When I first read about him, I thought he was an arrogant snot.
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Re: Shadow Series = Fail

Postby zeroguy » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:24 am

So people flying around in boxes and spliting souls switching bodies is more realistic than this?
I'd call it more believable, yeah. (Well, mostly.)
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Re: Shadow Series = Fail

Postby Dr. Mobius » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:54 am

The Ender books aren't meant to be completely logical.
Which is why he didn't attempt to, or even need to attempt to explain the inner workings of the ansible.
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Postby Ela » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:47 am

What Shadow books? I've deleted them from my personal canon.
:lol:

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Postby Bean_wannabe » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:45 pm

I don't see what everyone has against the Shadow books - they're different, that's all.

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Postby BeansBrother » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:11 am

I agree with BW. The Shadow books are books based around war, while I would consider the Speaker books based more around philosophy and morality.

They are different. That's all.
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Postby Ela » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:25 am

The Shadow books don't have the substance and depth of the original Ender's Game series, in my opinion. Books like Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead were really cutting edge.

The Shadow series is not. It's an average series, as far as scifi goes, and lacks the specialness and uniqueness that the Ender's Game series had.

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Postby zeroguy » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:29 am

I don't see what everyone has against the Shadow books - they're different, that's all.
They are a very different style (or subgenre). The people who read the Speaker series first like the style/genre of the Speaker series, and just read the Shadow series because it was part of the same universe. And... we don't like the new style.

So yeah, it's just different. Michael Chrichton books are just "different" from OSC's works as well; doesn't mean I have to like them.
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Postby neo-dragon » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:45 pm

It's really going to be interesting to see how "Shadows in Flight" turns out when (if?) OSC gets around to writing it. I'm hoping that it will combine the best aspects of both series and be the ultimate Enderverse novel! I'm also hoping that it will be at least 500 pages long, cost $1, magically be released yesterday, and OSC will do a book signing at the bookstore down the street from my house. Are my expectations a bit too high?
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Postby Ela » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:07 pm

Yes. :)

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Postby neo-dragon » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:22 pm

Well I did stop short of saying I want my name to be in the acknowledgments... again. Or maybe a dedication this time. :D
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Postby Azarel » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:55 am

I actually think that the Bean/Shadow saga series was EVERY bit as amazing as the Ender saga.

Bean's plot is highly believable.

Let us not forget that MANY ancient civilizations have CHILDREN for their 'living god' country leaders. To name a few...

- Emporer Meiji of Japan was FOURTEEN years old when became ruler.
- Tutenkhamun was 8 or 9 years old when he became pharoah
- The Last emporer of China was 3 years old when he began his reign

As for child soldiers... One word... Vietnam, or another word... Rwanda.

Then couple that with a Battle upbringing of maticulous discipline...
What you end with is genius and skill all held together by excellent bladder control.

So really Card based all his books on past experience, and in Bean's case, he studied ancient battle techniques to think up ways of dealing with modern warfare.

For me the Shadow Saga and Ender Saga go hand in hand, neither is better than the other. for me. I had to read them all.

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Postby Ela » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:35 am

Whether or not the story was believable was not as much the issue for me as the quality of writing. Frankly, I do not think that most of OSC's more recent work is up to the quality of his earlier work, and I include the Shadow series in that assessment.

The exception is his short stories. He writes very good short stories, but I guess they are not as much of a money-maker as a full-length novel.

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Postby neo-dragon » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:56 pm

I've never agreed with the assessment that Card's writing is of poorer quality in the Shadow books. I like the original quartet better only because it deals with themes and concepts that I find to be more thought-provoking. The reason why I still love the Shadow books is because Card writes so well that I can actually put up with all the politics and historical references that would bore me to tears in any other books. I don't see a difference in quality. That is to say, it's more a matter of what he writes about, not how he writes it.
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Postby Jayelle » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:20 pm

Whether or not the story was believable was not as much the issue for me as the quality of writing. Frankly, I do not think that most of OSC's more recent work is up to the quality of his earlier work, and I include the Shadow series in that assessment.

The exception is his short stories. He writes very good short stories, but I guess they are not as much of a money-maker as a full-length novel.
I absolutely agree. I'm trying to find a quote that can illustrate what I mean, but it's mostly a trouble of description. In writing, it's best to show, not tell. In Ender's Game, we never had long, drawn out essays about what Ender was thinking at any moment. The audience experienced it with him. The Shadow books have too much... description of what is happening without experience. It separates the reader from the action and emotion.
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Postby zeroguy » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:33 pm

Let us not forget that MANY ancient civilizations have CHILDREN for their 'living god' country leaders. To name a few...

- Emporer Meiji of Japan was FOURTEEN years old when became ruler.
Meiji didn't really.... do anything, and I doubt the others did, either, at that age. But Bean's age is not the problem; Ender was young, after all, though the circumstances were certainly different.
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Postby Azarel » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:37 am

The audience experienced it with him. The Shadow books have too much... description of what is happening without experience. It separates the reader from the action and emotion.
I can honestly say, and thankfully I guess, I did not feel that way while reading any shadow saga book, or any ender book. I did find Xenocide VERY difficult to read compared to the others and maybe because it darted around so much and I didn't yet understand the connection between the people of Path to Lusitania. But apart from that which was remedied halfway through, I've genuinely enjoyed them all.

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Postby akrolsmir » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:49 pm

I just like the geopolitics that are easily understood. Bean's Quartet is just... different.

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Postby thatguy1944 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:20 am

I did enjoy what i read of the BeanVerse. But truth be told (and it will) I enjoyed the EnderVerse more...

I liked seeing him evolve and flip that crazy family upside down.

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Postby zeroguy » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:09 am

I liked seeing him evolve and flip that crazy family upside down.
I think you mean... "and how that crazy family got flip-turned upside down".
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Postby thatguy1944 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:23 am

so take just a minute and sit right there and i'll tell you bout how ender got a job in bel-aire!
Seriously... just say ih (internal ha) from now on

because it never really is a laugh out loud...

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Postby beanpetrapeterlove703 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:34 pm

I feel bad for those out there that can only like one or the other.
Thank god my mind is open enough that i was able to fully enjoy and understand both the ender and bean series.

Hopefully some of you guys will mature enough to appreciate more than one kind of literature. :)

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Postby neo-dragon » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:38 pm

Wow, that was tactful.
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Postby Jayelle » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:12 pm


Hopefully some of you guys will mature enough to appreciate more than one kind of literature. :)
Or you'll mature enough to realize that a story can be good and still be badly written.
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Postby Qing_Jao » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:53 pm

I'm going to disagree specifically with the "They're just kids" line.

I know some others have touched on it, but I know people who never really had a childhood, because their 'childhood' involved having to be small adults. Their play mirrored the lives of their parents; there was a strict regime about the way they conducted their lives. So, it's possible. Especially when they're taken from the home at such a young age (or in Bean's case never knew one, really).
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Postby beanpetrapeterlove703 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:08 am

Or you'll mature enough to realize that a story can be good and still be badly written.[/quote]

Yeah, I get what you're saying; having just finishing possibly one of the worst written books ever, with a good story, right before reading the Shadow series, Orson Scott Card seemed like a writing god.

I taking about Twilight. Like seriously; Stephanie Meyer can't write for s***, but her stories are awsome.

sorry. That's really off topic; its just what popped up in my head...

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Postby Jebus » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:17 pm

I feel bad for those out there that can only like one or the other.
Thank god my mind is open enough that i was able to fully enjoy and understand both the ender and bean series.

Hopefully some of you guys will mature enough to appreciate more than one kind of literature. :)
Hahahaha, it's easy to be open-minded when you're clearly suffering from a gaping hole in your head, hahaha.

I get it now, liking something = open-minded and mature. For a long time I was afraid to admit my love of child pornography, but now I see how open-minded and mature I am. I can be a paedophile and a snob, woo!

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Postby Ela » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:42 pm

Nice of you to make an appearance, Jeebsy. :P


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