The best wiggin

Discuss all things pertaining to the EnderVerse milieu.

who do you like more?

Peter Wiggin (Locke) the hegemon of earth
35
40%
Valentine Wiggin (Demosthenes)
10
11%
Andrew Wiggin (ender) the speaker of the dead
42
48%
 
Total votes: 87

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The best wiggin

Postby GodInYourEyes » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:16 am

who do you like the most?
was it because of what they did or their personality?
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Postby Darth Petra » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:35 am

I'd have to go with Ender, but Peter comes very close. Peter's alot like me. Ender is who I want to be.
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Postby neo-dragon » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:59 pm

Ender's the best, of course.

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Postby Janus%TheDoorman » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:03 pm

Peter's accomplishments on behalf of mankind arguably outstrip those of Ender, considering that the Buggers did not pose the imminent threat to humans that people believed they did.

That said, Peter does nothing that I don't believe Ender could have done, and likely would have done better. He misjudges his parents and their contributions, depends on Bean for the greater majority of his strategy, and largely served mainly to guide the forces under him than actually playing much of an active role, outside of gathering intelligence and drafting the FPE charter.

Valentine, while obviously very skilled and intelligent, throughout her career(s) serves a very secondary role to her brothers, first serving as a counterpoint to amplify Peter's positions as Locke, later working again to mold public/policy opinion to help Ender's position on Lusitania. While obviously necessary, her own actions are, again, secondary.
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Postby KennEnder » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:03 pm

Ender. I can't even say that it's really close.
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Postby Qing_Jao » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:09 pm

Ender, I think because I know him best.
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Postby zeroguy » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:18 am

Janus%TheDoorman wrote:Peter's accomplishments on behalf of mankind arguably outstrip those of Ender, considering that the Buggers did not pose the imminent threat to humans that people believed they did.


Err, what about everything he did three thousand years after the bugger wars?
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Postby Epimetheus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:17 am

I'm going to categorize this since "best", in my opinion, relies on definition.

The best leader....well I'm gonna get flamed on this...but:

1. Peter - Through lies, half truths, and manipulation he led the whole of humanity through the most self destructive era in human history. The elder Wiggin's immoral (not amoral, very important difference) tendencies allowed him to put behind him most, if not all, of the guilt of the sacrifices he made to gain the world order that he and his supporters imposed on humanity. The personality OSC displayed in Ender would never have made the arrogant, self aggrandizing decisions Peter made to preserve his image and his own safety above those of the individuals that surrounded him. He was arrogant enough to think that HE was more important to humanity at large than anybody else. Was he right? Well, in the "Enderverse" three thousand years later every leader in all the worlds humanity inhabits holds themselves up to one standard and sees themselves coming up short: THE Hegemon, aka Peter Wiggin.

2. Ender was perfect leading his kids in battle school and in the "simulations" at command school. Yet his greatest known triumph was achieved under a state of self-delusion, despair and the desire to fail in order to escape. Ender spent the rest of his life in a state of post traumatic stress jumping from one well of despair to the next to atone for his perceived sins. Atonement is a personal luxury a leader cannot indulge in. Ender was capable of putting his safety before that of others but doing so always placed him in a spiral of guilt and self-hatred that made him incapable of action for significant time frames afterward.

3. Val was not a leader except through a pseudonym. Leaders have faces. Peter transcended his false identity.


Well, that's my armchair psychology lookout at 5AM in Florida...insomnia for the win. I like Bean best anyway :P

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Postby GodInYourEyes » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:10 pm

wow i thought val would've gotten more votes then peter
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Postby Darth Petra » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:27 pm

GodInYourEyes wrote:wow i thought val would've gotten more votes then peter

Peter rules. And Val doesn't.
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Postby PhanaticEnder.Reader » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:58 am

doesnt the fact peter took over the world kind of make him the best?

yes, yes i know, ender saved the human race and the people of lusitania blah blah blah but peter also saved the human race from destroying itself, i.e achilles. so i think the 2 sort of balance each other out, but then i read the shadow series and realise that peter is actually just as capable of anything ender has ever done, but then again he had quite a bit of help from bean, but that doesnt mean to say hes worse, because in actual fact it makes him better because he understood when to take beans good advice which makes him smarter than ender.

i think

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Postby Eddie Pinz » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:27 am

Ender saved the human race from the buggers. Ender saved the buggers from his Xenocide. Ender helped save the Piggies from the humans. And he helped save Jane. I think Ender wins.

I also think Val's accomplishments are often overlooked. Although she was never at the forefront, her writings might have more influence than Peter. Her writings will be around forever, Peter was around for 100 years.

Oh, back to Ender, he also wrote the Hive Queen and the Hegemon and formed his own religion(of sorts). And he spawned his own Val and Peter. How can anyone else even compete?

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Postby PhanaticEnder.Reader » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:44 am

he spawned his own Val and Peter


he thought it was the absolute worst thing he could have ever done, so its not actually that great. he hurt valentine when she had to see a better version of herself, and he hurt young val because she was slowly fading away and she still had the same feelings as everyone else, so thats kind of horrible on enders part.

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Postby zeroguy » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:35 am

Eddie Pinz wrote:Ender saved the human race from the buggers.


Jigga-wha? If anything, he saved the buggers from the human race. If Ender wasn't around, the buggers were going to leave them alone. And someone else may have killed them all. Rackham saved humanity from the buggers.
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Postby Eddie Pinz » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:18 am

Zero,

Think about it though. The fleet was send out shortly after the Second Invasion. There was going to be a war, Ender or not. If Ender isn't there, they probably lose that war. Now, I can't predict how the buggers would react, but I don't think they would be too pleased. That could have led to a third invasion and put the human race at risk.

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Postby zeroguy » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:02 am

Eddie Pinz wrote:There was going to be a war, Ender or not. If Ender isn't there, they probably lose that war. Now, I can't predict how the buggers would react, but I don't think they would be too pleased.


I'm not so sure.

"Why did they kill the crew?"

"Why not? To them, losing a few crew members would be like clipping your nails. Nothing to get upset about. They probably thought they were routinely shutting down our communications by turning off the workers running the tug. Not murdering living, sentient beings with an independent genetic future. Murder's no big deal to them. Only queen-killing, really, is murder, because only queen-killing closes off a genetic path."


Without Ender, it seems unlikely that the fleets would do very well at all (if someone mentions Bean.... no, just no). Without killing a Queen, or doing substantial damage to resources, I don't know how much they would care. After, all, the Hive Queen mentioned how they realized the problems with what they did, and were to avoid the humans in the future; they may have understood it was their fault. Hell, they would probably think they were lucky to be alive:

What the hive-queen felt was sadness, a sense of resignation. She had not thought these words as she saw the humans coming to kill, but it was in words that Ender understood her: They did not forgive us, she thought. We will surely die.


Also, since the buggers are for the most part a singular consciousness, the Queen's opinion is the only one that matters. And the sole remaining Hive Queen? She forgave Ender, even though he destroyed their entire fleet. If they just destroyed some of it, it seems like they'd be even less angry.
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Postby Eddie Pinz » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:50 am

Remember though, the Hive Queen search for Ender. She knew him and knew that he didn't know what he was doing. She also knew that he was the only chance for their race's survival. That's why the Hive Queen was hiddin in the Fantasy Game scene. It is much easier to forgive someone when you have access to his mind and know that he is the only way that you can survive.

As for the Queen killing, I think some would have happened. Even if Ender wasn't there, they still would have taken the best and brightest from battle school (and I'll leave Bean out of this). But it doesn't change the fact that the kids still would have been training for the war all their life. Not to mention that they had a superior weapon in the MD device. So, yes, I think some Queen killing would have happened. Unless of course, all of the Queens were on the home planet. I don't remember it stating that they were. And it seems silly to put all your eggs in one basket so to speak.

And to Phantic Ender (sorry, I didn't see your post earlier),
You have to look at the big picture. Yes, was it hard for Valentine. Was it a shame that Young Val was fading, yes. But Young Val's body was used to save Jane, which I think greatly outweighs the trouble that it caused. Likewise, you can pick out Peter's failings as well. The fact that he torture Ender and said he was going to kill him. The fact that he was outsmarted by Achilles. The fact that he became a useless twit for much of Shadow Puppets(or was it SotH, I foget) and his parents had to save him. The fact that he relied so heavily on Bean. Doesn't even compare to Ender.

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Postby zeroguy » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:54 am

Eddie Pinz wrote:Remember though, the Hive Queen search for Ender. She knew him and knew that he didn't know what he was doing. She also knew that he was the only chance for their race's survival. That's why the Hive Queen was hiddin in the Fantasy Game scene. It is much easier to forgive someone when you have access to his mind and know that he is the only way that you can survive.


The buggers were defeated twice previously, though; it would seem that they would be reluctant to try again. They just want to be left alone; I think they'd just try to stop any further attacks, and possibly run. It would seem pretty easy to hide; how did the Third Invasion fleets even know where to go, anyway?

As for the Queen killing, I think some would have happened. Even if Ender wasn't there, they still would have taken the best and brightest from battle school (and I'll leave Bean out of this). But it doesn't change the fact that the kids still would have been training for the war all their life. Not to mention that they had a superior weapon in the MD device. So, yes, I think some Queen killing would have happened. Unless of course, all of the Queens were on the home planet. I don't remember it stating that they were. And it seems silly to put all your eggs in one basket so to speak.


The MD Device didn't really seem like it was all too much of an advantage; the only significant use we're told about is in the first and last battle. And about the queens:

"...You won every battle, and today you finally fought them at their home world, where the queen was, all the queens from all their colonies, they all were there and you destroyed them completely. They'll never attack us again. You did it. You."


It may just be that the queens all retreated from the lost battles at colonies, I'm not sure. And this is Rackham talking; how the hell would he even know that?

And as for lumping them all in one basket... well, it was the most well-protected place they could have put them. Remember how many ships were protecting the planet? Holy hell. If we can get past that, we can sure as hell get past anything they had.
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Postby GodInYourEyes » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:51 am

Eddie Pinz are you saying the humans would have won or the buggers?
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Postby Eddie Pinz » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:11 am

zeroguy wrote:The buggers were defeated twice previously, though; it would seem that they would be reluctant to try again. They just want to be left alone; I think they'd just try to stop any further attacks, and possibly run. It would seem pretty easy to hide; how did the Third Invasion fleets even know where to go, anyway?


I'm not sure how the fleets knew where to go. Maybe information from the anisible? I'm not sure. I really don't remember how the first invasion went, aside from the humans winning. But the humans were very fortunate to survive the second invasion. If Rackham doesn't realize that they were all protecting that one ship, then the humans probably lose. Stop further attacks how? That was what I was implying with the Buggers launching a third invasion, to stop more attacks. Because I don't think that the humans would ever stop attacking them. But I do agree that running is a possible solution and probably a pretty good one.

The MD Device didn't really seem like it was all too much of an advantage; the only significant use we're told about is in the first and last battle.


I agree but it was still better than the weapons that they had during the second invasion. I don't remember much of the other battles being described in much detail, as far as what weapons were used and such.

And about the queens:

"...You won every battle, and today you finally fought them at their home world, where the queen was, all the queens from all their colonies, they all were there and you destroyed them completely. They'll never attack us again. You did it. You."


It may just be that the queens all retreated from the lost battles at colonies, I'm not sure. And this is Rackham talking; how the hell would he even know that?


Not really sure about this either. Anisible??

And as for lumping them all in one basket... well, it was the most well-protected place they could have put them. Remember how many ships were protecting the planet? Holy hell. If we can get past that, we can sure as hell get past anything they had.


I can see how that line of reasoning works, but it still seems silly to me. After the buggers were defeated, the humans recognized that they needed to expand to other planets. So, that one invasion force wouldn't be able to wipe out the entire race in one battle.


GodInYourEyes,

I think I stated in an earlier post that the humans would probably lose the war without Ender. If I didn't, well, I think they lose without Ender.

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Postby zeroguy » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:44 pm

Eddie Pinz wrote:I'm not sure how the fleets knew where to go. Maybe information from the anisible? I'm not sure.


Now that I thought about it, it seems like they perhaps could have traced it from trajectories of retreating formic ships or something. But I don't see how they would've gotten to all of them. Maybe it's just some secret intel we're not being told about; deciphering some technology on a formic ship, or something. Or is it possible to determine the location of the other end of a philotic link? That doesn't seem likely, but we were never told it's not possible. Hm...

I don't have time to finish this; I'll get to the rest later.
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Postby Drfuji » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:25 am

I like Ender the best, but I liked him less and less as the Ender series goes on. During Ender's Game, I saw him as a strong, powerful, and confident leader, someone you wouldn't want to mess with, but as I continued reading the other books, I saw those characterists less and less. To me, at least, I didn't see him as that strong of a person as I did in Ender's Game.

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Peter!

Postby SenderMage » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:51 am

Ender was my favorite for Ender's Game, but then his story got slightly more boring than Peter's and Peter turned out to be a good guy anyway. I voted for Peter also because he unified Earth.

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Postby starlooker » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:06 pm

I liked Peter in Ender's Game, and never again after. Before the Shadow series.

He was a much stronger character then. A bit frightening. Mysterious. Hateful. And working to create a better world. The contradiction was intriguing. He was not exactly predictable, but not random, either. Just enough nuance.

It got boring when nuance turned into page after page of explanation of how there weren't any contradictions or nuances, anyways.
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Postby zeroguy » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:01 am

I guess I didn't actually have much to add. Just this:

Eddie Pinz wrote:
And as for lumping them all in one basket... well, it was the most well-protected place they could have put them. Remember how many ships were protecting the planet? Holy hell. If we can get past that, we can sure as hell get past anything they had.


I can see how that line of reasoning works, but it still seems silly to me. After the buggers were defeated, the humans recognized that they needed to expand to other planets. So, that one invasion force wouldn't be able to wipe out the entire race in one battle.


Yeah, well, remember humans are "a collection of idiots" as the hive queen once put it, as I recall. We have billions of independent thinkers, and the buggers only had a few; maybe they just hadn't thought it out enough.

Or maybe they were lonely and wanted to be by the other queens. That is, ignoring that their philotic connections were instantaneous regardless of distance and they could practically read each others' minds.... :stoned:
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Postby Snowrelax » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:33 am

The only difference between Ender and Peter is ambition. Peter is as much as an empath as Ender, it's just that his ambition clouds his judgment and perception.

Valentine is my favorite only because she is who I want to be: her ability to handle and assess a situation while retaining her girlish posture.
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man...

Postby ender23 » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:23 pm

i really thought val would get more votes...

but there's no way peter could have defeated the buggers, Ender was the ONLY one because he was the only one that loved them enough to understand them and therefore completely defeat them. Remember that graff said that they needed a complete leader to lead the war against the buggers, but a leader who could get his subordinates to follow him perfectly also would be too empathetic to kill the buggers if he knew about them so that's why he had to be deceived!

Peter's really not much of a leader, he's just a really really good politician, people don't follow him because they love and adore him. That's all Ender, and it's a big difference because it's natural in Ender. Peter probably could have done it but it would have all been calculated and people would have seen through it.

i wish there was a real val i could marry...

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Postby GodInYourEyes » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:26 am

ender23 wrote:i really thought val would get more votes...


thats what i thought too, but i geuss we thought wrong
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Postby Warmaker » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:17 am

Peter only had seventy-something years and his species to help, which he did more than anybody else. Although Ender probably had a more impressive resume of greatness than Peter, Ender cheated death for 3000 years and had access to 4 raman species. Peter was far more efficient with his deeds.
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Postby mazer » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:26 am

Eddie Pinz wrote:

You have to look at the big picture. Yes, was it hard for Valentine. Was it a shame that Young Val was fading, yes. But Young Val's body was used to save Jane, which I think greatly outweighs the trouble that it caused. Likewise, you can pick out Peter's failings as well. The fact that he torture Ender and said he was going to kill him. The fact that he was outsmarted by Achilles. The fact that he became a useless twit for much of Shadow Puppets(or was it SotH, I foget) and his parents had to save him. The fact that he relied so heavily on Bean. Doesn't even compare to Ender.


yes but he loved his brother really and the fact that that he was out smarted by achilles makes him rely on every one else more

Peters story is great because you go from hating him to loving him

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Postby Eddie Pinz » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:57 am

mazer wrote:Peters story is great because you go from hating him to loving him


I find the opposite true. I went from liking Peter to hating him. When I found out that Peter became Hegemon of Earth at the end of Ender's Game, I thought, "Now, that has to be a great story." I found the story to be okay, but Card completely killed Peter in the process. The quote below pretty much sums up my feelings as well.

starlooker wrote:I liked Peter in Ender's Game, and never again after. Before the Shadow series.

He was a much stronger character then. A bit frightening. Mysterious. Hateful. And working to create a better world. The contradiction was intriguing. He was not exactly predictable, but not random, either. Just enough nuance.

It got boring when nuance turned into page after page of explanation of how there weren't any contradictions or nuances, anyways.

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Postby jotabe » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:13 am

Yes, i have to say that the Wiggin i like the best is pre-Shadow Peter.
Shadow series made him a bit stupid, compared to the superior intellect he had to have (intellectually, Peter was supposed to be on par to Ender). He makes many mistakes, and doesn't take any brilliant decisions. His ascent to power seems to be more of Bean's achievement than Peter's.
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Postby locke%peter@wiggin.net » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:50 pm

my username
ender saved the earth and all but peters just smarter even though he made a few mistakes. peter actually got into power while ender was just a tool 4 graff

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Postby PetraArkanian » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:48 pm

I love ender! I totally feel for him, he's my favorite character other than Petra

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Postby Jezebel » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:07 pm

I'm a big fan of Valentine. She's so sweet... like concentrated love. Both Ender and Peter are too unlikable.
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