Which is better?

Discuss all things pertaining to the EnderVerse milieu.

Choose!

The Speaker series
70
65%
The Shadow series
37
35%
 
Total votes: 107

User avatar
Primus Pilum
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:21 am

Postby Primus Pilum » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:44 am

for me its a tie. I think the speaker series was a bit better written but I enjoyed Shadow just as much.

puppets
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Location: cumberland, md

Postby puppets » Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:21 pm

The shadow series for me. Ender's Shadow made it so. I love that book more than any other. That out of the way, I prefer Xenocide and Children secondly.

But the shadow series for me, Bean was meant to make Ender look weak and slow in comparison... because he is... in comparison to Bean anywho. But those of you who say that Orson Scott Card made Ender look bad, you're wrong, Bean admits he can never be as great as Ender, he has that natural charisma, which Bean lacks.

Plus I'm a sucker for 2 year olds crawling through ducts and killing bullies and creating advanced computer programs and leading armies.
"I knew you were searching for him. I didn't want to interfere until you found him. Just in case you think you were really smart, young man, we intercepted four street thugs and two known sex offenders who were after you."

Sister Carlotta

User avatar
Jebus
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1300
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:53 pm
Title: Lord and Saviour
First Joined: 07 Nov 2001

Postby Jebus » Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:14 pm

Bean admits he can never be as great as Ender, he has that natural charisma, which Bean lacks.
That's just it, Ender is reduced to nothing more than a charsmatic leader, essentially he's just a good actor.

ES undermined Ender's intelligence, resourcefulness, tacticalness and many of his greatest feats.

puppets
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Location: cumberland, md

Postby puppets » Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:30 pm

I look at it this way, if we saw the book from bean's point of view, thats how it will be, mainly cause compared to Bean, Ender's intelligence is nothing, and his charisma is greater. He didn't seem as charismatic in ES, but he seemed smarter, since the book revolves around Bean, you won't see much of Ender's intelligence. Plus Ender's intelligence was shown through his thoughts, where Bean's was shown through actions and thoughts. Since you can't see Ender's thoughts in ES, then I wouldn't think he'd seem remotly as smart as he did in EG.
"I knew you were searching for him. I didn't want to interfere until you found him. Just in case you think you were really smart, young man, we intercepted four street thugs and two known sex offenders who were after you."

Sister Carlotta

puppets
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Location: cumberland, md

Postby puppets » Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:33 pm

And also, you don't see much of Ender in ES, every scene more or less involves Bean, the ones with Ender in it, aren't ones that show his true genius.... You see him walking away from Madrid's Body, you see him train the Dragon Army, which wasn't much focus on him anyways for this point in ES, and you see him vaguely lead the group through the final fight against the buggers, though that alone is very important, once again that point is focused on Bean.
"I knew you were searching for him. I didn't want to interfere until you found him. Just in case you think you were really smart, young man, we intercepted four street thugs and two known sex offenders who were after you."

Sister Carlotta

User avatar
lyons24000
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:46 pm
Title: Darn Red Shells!
Location: Texas
Contact:

Postby lyons24000 » Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:31 pm

Bean admits he can never be as great as Ender, he has that natural charisma, which Bean lacks.
That's just it, Ender is reduced to nothing more than a charsmatic leader, essentially he's just a good actor.

ES undermined Ender's intelligence, resourcefulness, tacticalness and many of his greatest feats.
I am standing right behind you on that one Jebus. When OSC wrote Ender's Game and the Speaker series Ender was just that, a pretty wonderful character who was without a doubt better then Bean in every aspect. But then, for some odd reason, OSC just had to go and make Bean better. In that respect it's not part of canon IMHO.
"This must be the end, then."-MorningLightMountain, Judas Unchained

User avatar
Jebus
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 1300
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:53 pm
Title: Lord and Saviour
First Joined: 07 Nov 2001

Postby Jebus » Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:45 pm

I look at it this way, if we saw the book from bean's point of view, thats how it will be, mainly cause compared to Bean, Ender's intelligence is nothing, and his charisma is greater. He didn't seem as charismatic in ES, but he seemed smarter, since the book revolves around Bean, you won't see much of Ender's intelligence. Plus Ender's intelligence was shown through his thoughts, where Bean's was shown through actions and thoughts. Since you can't see Ender's thoughts in ES, then I wouldn't think he'd seem remotly as smart as he did in EG.
ES fans often like to throw about this different POV idea, but it doesn't hold much water. The problem is that ES forces us to see the things that happened in Ender's Game(with Ender's POV) in a fundementally different way than they were originally written and with lots of the credit given to Bean instead of Ender.

Seiryu
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 718
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:54 pm
Location: Texas

Postby Seiryu » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:38 pm

I like the Speaker series better because of whatever everyone else said: OSC is better at writing Sci-Fi Fiction than Political Fiction. I'm not that big into politics anyway, so the Shadow series didn't really appeal to me much. I really did not like Shadow of the Hegemon. It took me such a long time to read it because of all the politics. I did like Shadow Puppets and Shadow of the Giant (despite certain things in it...), but even Shadow Puppets, my favorite Shadow book, is not even close to being as good as my least favorite Shadow book, Speaker of the Dead (simply because SotD wasn't my least favorite because of anything in particular. I liked SotD, but I just didn't think it was as good as Xenocide or Children of the Mind. Nothing wrong with it.)

The next book is a bridge, I hear. Let's hope it's got more Sci-Fi elements to it than it does political.
Image
I don't believe in fairies!
(Dresden's battle cry going against fairies in book 4.)

Crazy Tim
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:34 pm

Postby Crazy Tim » Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:57 pm

Both series on the whole were excellent, i thought. But I could relate more easily to the concepts discussed/portrayed in the speaker series. Although, the shadow series did bring a new side of the story to the table. .I found it amusing that Ender and Bean(while in Dragon army) crawled through the ventilation together to discover the plans of the enemy generals, that sort of made Ender less invulnerable

human.
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:02 pm
Title: pequenino

Postby human. » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:36 pm

I haven't read EG in a few months, but I don't remember anything about Ender crawling through the air ducts and vents in order to discover the other commanders' plans.

User avatar
Sibyl
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:17 pm
Location: Kansas

Postby Sibyl » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:36 pm

I can't say that I prefer one or the other, it's apples and oranges. I think that both series are actually long novels, "serialized", and the shadow novel isn't finished yet.

To me, it seems that the Speaker series, (beginning with EG, of course) is one of the best "serious" novels that I've ever read, and I'm talking sixty years of non-stop reading here, and enough college hours in English to have graduated as an English major, if I had graduated. Among many other things, like SF concepts, it has the depth and complexity of character relationship, and the multitude of characters, all related, to be a novel "about" relationships--and the particular relationships would not be possible without the SF concepts. It's also the story of one man's Fall and Redemption. And a lot of other things.

I don't know how many of the folks here have ever heard the term "Space Opera", which came from "Horse Opera", a term of semi-contempt for the old-fashioned Western, with Singing Cowboys. The idea of the "Space Opera" term is that the plots of those could be entirely back-translated to the plots of westerns, by trading off "blasters" (more recently it'd be lasers or phasers) for six-guns, spaceships for horses, and aliens for Indians. Anyway, neither of the two series under discussion fits that term, but a lot of things like the Star Trek original episodes do, which is not saying that they're "bad", but that they're of that genre of SF.

The Shadow novel is like the best of Golden Age SF, a long and complex short story. It also would not be possible without technological development. Bean's story won't be finished at least until he gets off that starship, and gets the missing child back (or at least, the missing child is accounted for). The virus technique that's discovered in that universe during the events on Lusitania, three thousand objective years after Bean and the four babies get onto the starship, should be the cure for the genetic problem, and Jane will be able to notify them. I actually think it's a flaw, because I don't believe it would take humanity nearly that long to get the cure: they were already using viruses to some extent as genetic carriers even when Bean was himself conceived, and may be right now: I'm not up on cutting-edge genetic surgery. Even if everyone had forgotten about Bean, Jane wouldn't have, and she'd be keeping one eye on the research, which would have naturally progressed in that direction, even without the descolada or Bean's specific problem.

Anyway, looking back at what I said, I guess I do prefer the Speaker series, but I'm still not going to vote it.
It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Sibyl

User avatar
Sibyl
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:17 pm
Location: Kansas

Postby Sibyl » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:35 pm

Bean admits he can never be as great as Ender, he has that natural charisma, which Bean lacks.
That's just it, Ender is reduced to nothing more than a charsmatic leader, essentially he's just a good actor.

ES undermined Ender's intelligence, resourcefulness, tacticalness and many of his greatest feats.
I am standing right behind you on that one Jebus. When OSC wrote Ender's Game and the Speaker series Ender was just that, a pretty wonderful character who was without a doubt better then Bean in every aspect. But then, for some odd reason, OSC just had to go and make Bean better. In that respect it's not part of canon IMHO.
I don't think that it's a matter of "better", just as the two-series question. They're two different people, with different talents. "Canon"? We aren't talking Scripture here, we're talking _Fiction_! Bean is brighter, Ender has more leadership ability, so what? That doesn't make either of them "only", or "just a good actor": the tests in the first place weren't designed only for IQ points, or only for leadership ability. All the kids who went to Battle School were the cream of Earth, with all the necessary talents, but all had more of some things than of others, and any of them _might_ have become the General that Earth needed. Ender was just the best shot at it. But all of them were getting the same training, which was in itself more testing.
It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Sibyl

User avatar
Sibyl
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:17 pm
Location: Kansas

Postby Sibyl » Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:22 pm

Also, when Bean "invented Jane" in SotG, I threw the book across the room (literally), it was just too unbelievable.
But that wasn't what happened! At most, Bean gave an embryo a kick upward to fetus. One of the facets of the abortion debate, for Christians who haven't yet made up their minds, is at what point of development the new person is "ensouled". Some think that abortion is fine, because it doesn't happen until the baby draws breath, at birth, as when God created Adam in the Bible, gave him breath "and Man became a living soul". Others think that it happens at conception, as in the RC "Immaculate Conception of Mary" (no Original Sin) doctrine, when all the genetic potential is there. I'm inclined to favor conception myself. In any case, Jane got her soul, or aiua, when the Hive Queens tried the "bridge"--but the only "body" she had at that point was the Fantasy Game program, an extremely adaptable and "intelligent" program, that "knew" a lot about human personality, but with very little freedom of movement. She got that when she became the investment program for Ender's pension, and could get out of the game (where she'd first showed herself as a person and more than a "simple" (not very) program by finding Peter's current face from other computers--but it was still operating within the game, for the needs of the game in continuing to test Ender. Getting out into the "real world" of financial management was the next step in the development of her mind and "body".
It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Sibyl

zeroguy
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2741
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:29 pm
Title: 01111010 01100111
First Joined: 0- 8-2001
Location: Where you least expect me.
Contact:

Postby zeroguy » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:27 pm

I don't think that it's a matter of "better", just as the two-series question. They're two different people, with different talents. "Canon"? We aren't talking Scripture here, we're talking _Fiction_! Bean is brighter, Ender has more leadership ability, so what?
Many people here read EG first; many read it before ES existed. EG portrays Ender in a very good light, as the best student at Battle School: the smartest, most resourceful, and the best leader. He was very likable, and was all but a hero.

Then OSC wrote ES, and smashed the image of Ender in our minds all to hell. Or would have, except many of us don't hold ES with the same truth as EG, or barely acknowledge it exists at all. ES and EG have such a different feel for the whole story they tell, and portray the main character in such different ways, that it does not feel like the books belong in the same storyline, the same fictional universe. So, I, among others, don't accept much of ES as it is written in our minds. It's just a different, crappier story.

RE: Jane. You might want to say "spoilers" or something there, because a little about Jane's origins (as told in the Speaker series) is a bit spoiler-ish for Xenocide.
Proud member of the Canadian Alliance.

dgf hhw

User avatar
neo-dragon
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2516
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:26 pm
Title: Huey Revolutionary
Location: Canada

Postby neo-dragon » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:19 pm


Then OSC wrote ES, and smashed the image of Ender in our minds all to hell. Or would have, except many of us don't hold ES with the same truth as EG, or barely acknowledge it exists at all. ES and EG have such a different feel for the whole story they tell, and portray the main character in such different ways, that it does not feel like the books belong in the same storyline, the same fictional universe. So, I, among others, don't accept much of ES as it is written in our minds. It's just a different, crappier story.
That seems a bit harsh. I don't find EG and ES to be incompatible at all. They're just each told focusing on a different character's perspective. Naturally, the book which focuses on Ender emphasizes his strengths and accomplishments and the book that focuses on Bean does the same for him. I wonder if you would consider EG the crappier story if you had read ES first. In any case, I think that people are way too hard on the Shadow books just because they tell a different kind of story. I think that the 8 books together make a pretty impressive saga, and I can't wait for the 9th and 10th (if he's still planning on writing two more) since they will bring the two branches of the story together to make a more cohesive whole.

User avatar
Sibyl
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:17 pm
Location: Kansas

Postby Sibyl » Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:22 pm

I don't think that it's a matter of "better", just as the two-series question. They're two different people, with different talents. "Canon"? We aren't talking Scripture here, we're talking _Fiction_! Bean is brighter, Ender has more leadership ability, so what?
Many people here read EG first; many read it before ES existed. EG portrays Ender in a very good light, as the best student at Battle School: the smartest, most resourceful, and the best leader. He was very likable, and was all but a hero.

Then OSC wrote ES, and smashed the image of Ender in our minds all to hell. Or would have, except many of us don't hold ES with the same truth as EG, or barely acknowledge it exists at all. ES and EG have such a different feel for the whole story they tell, and portray the main character in such different ways, that it does not feel like the books belong in the same storyline, the same fictional universe. So, I, among others, don't accept much of ES as it is written in our minds. It's just a different, crappier story.
Reminds me of Sharyn MacCrumb in "Bimboes of the Death Sun", or maybe she was quoting someone else earlier:
"Science Fiction writers build castles in the air. Science Fiction fans move in (with a U-Haul).

Or maybe it reminds me of the contrived controversy when I was a teen: whether Elvis Presley or Pat Boone was King of Rock 'n' Roll. Kids came to blows over the question. I don't think the two singers cared about it.
It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Sibyl

User avatar
Young Val
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3166
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Title: Papermaster
First Joined: 12 Sep 2000
Location: from New York City to St. Paul, MN (but I'm a Boston girl at heart).
Contact:

Postby Young Val » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:06 pm

"Canon"? We aren't talking Scripture here, we're talking _Fiction_!


i majored in Writing and minored in English in college, and "Canon" has become an acceptable term when discussing the facts and theories and the differences therein regarding a body of fictious work. at least, it was at Ithaca College, and i've heard it used frequently in academic circles since.
you snooze, you lose
well I have snozzed and lost
I'm pushing through
I'll disregard the cost
I hear the bells
so fascinating and
I'll slug it out
I'm sick of waiting
and I can
hear the bells are
ringing joyful and triumphant

User avatar
Sibyl
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:17 pm
Location: Kansas

Postby Sibyl » Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:34 pm

I don't think that it's a matter of "better", just as the two-series question. They're two different people, with different talents. "Canon"? We aren't talking Scripture here, we're talking _Fiction_! Bean is brighter, Ender has more leadership ability, so what?
Many people here read EG first; many read it before ES existed. EG portrays Ender in a very good light, as the best student at Battle School: the smartest, most resourceful, and the best leader. He was very likable, and was all but a hero.

Then OSC wrote ES, and smashed the image of Ender in our minds all to hell. Or would have, except many of us don't hold ES with the same truth as EG, or barely acknowledge it exists at all. ES and EG have such a different feel for the whole story they tell, and portray the main character in such different ways, that it does not feel like the books belong in the same storyline, the same fictional universe. So, I, among others, don't accept much of ES as it is written in our minds. It's just a different, crappier story.
I just can't get my brain wrapped around the idea that the writing of the Shadow series somehow trashed Ender as a character (or as a person). I never saw him denigrated in any way in that series, or Bean taking any attitude but supportive of him. I just don't see where the anger is coming from, though I can see that you don't like the Shadow series as much, I surely wouldn't call it "crappy": it's just good Golden Age Science Fiction. I also don't find any contradictions of fact.
It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Sibyl

zeroguy
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2741
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:29 pm
Title: 01111010 01100111
First Joined: 0- 8-2001
Location: Where you least expect me.
Contact:

Postby zeroguy » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:40 pm

It's not degrading Ender or anything like that, it's just that it changes who he is. (It's not really a worse person, but it just feels very weird and alien.) So he's not really "trashed"; though I may have come off sounding like I thought that.

And, well, as for the "crappy" part, that's more like friendly ribbing*. I know I've heard others besides me complain about how the Shadow series didn't seem as well written, though. I myself am not a good enough judge of that, I do not think, so I will not even try.

* There are (at least in my memory) some groups of members which are very clearly "ES sucks" or "ES and EG are both awesome" (I don't recall any "EG sucks" groups, but they may be out there).

This is merely my opinion, though; I have really no idea if the Speaker series actually has a different style than the Shadow series. The Shadow series just never felt right to me, and probably never will. Completely explaining it rationally will probably never happen, because I recognize it as just somehow my feelings for the events in EG influencing my opinion. But it is my opinion, and I stick by it (as well as trying to explain some of the anti-ES sentiment you may encounter here).

Also a note: I don't remember any blatant contradictions in the Shadow series, but there were several cases of things being sort of "added" instead of replacing other things. The "Bean `inventing' Jane" thing is one example. Even though I pretty much agree with your analysis on that, Bean having a hand in that creation was just really unnecessary, and to me is slightly telling of OSC just wanting to tie too much together of the various storylines.
Proud member of the Canadian Alliance.

dgf hhw

User avatar
Scott
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:33 am
Location: Omaha, NE, USA
Contact:

Postby Scott » Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:26 am

I definitely prefer the Speaker series, although both were enjoyable.
Live every week like it's SHARK WEEK

Synesthesia
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:10 am

Postby Synesthesia » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:22 am

At the risk of bumping an old topic, I like the Ender series better.
Even though in the Ender's series OSC often possesses characters (Valentine mostly) to lecture the readers about morality and marriage, it's done even more in the Bean series, especially in this one part that sets my teeth on edge-

Spoilers-
It is not a good idea for a gay man to marry a straight woman. It just isn't.
Also, I have a hard time believing Valentine and Peter's parents knew what they were up to. If that is the case, why didn't they know about Peter bulling Ender and Valentine and do something about that? Parents do not always know what kids are up to....

User avatar
BonitoDeMadrid
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 am
Title: Bonzo was Framed
Location: The exact center of the earth

Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:02 am

Synthesia, which gay man marries a straight woman? Anton? I don't recall any of the characters in either series' being gay, and that fact being mentioned.

Back on topic, I like the Shadow series more- WAY more. I could barely "eat" Xenocide, and I'm a sci-fi bookworm. And CotM was WAY too much philosophy for me..so I stepped down, reading the basic plot on Wikipedia to know the end of the series, and ignoring the philosophical content.

IMO, Geopolitics and millitary>Philosophy by a long shot.
Still, EG is my favorite in both series'.
Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cavefish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!

Eddie Pinz
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:27 pm
Title: Ganon's Bane

Postby Eddie Pinz » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:49 am

Now I was a little late to the party, so when I first read the series through all the books were released except for SoaG. When first reading EG, Bean was my favorite character. When finished with EG, I moved on to the Speaker series. My initial thoughts were, "I want to know about what happened to the Battle School kids, I don't care about these new characters." Within the first couple chapters, maybe even within the first chapter, I forgot about the battle school kids. Same thing happened in Xenocide. I thought, "I don't care about these people on Path, what's going on in Lusitania." Lusitania wasn't fogotten but I grew to love the new characters that were introduced. By CotM, I was just excited to read the conclusion of the series. And I couldn't wait to read the Shadow series because:
1) Bean was my favorite character in EG
2) Initially, I wanted to know what happened to the battle school kids
3) Was excited to see how Peter became Hegemon.

I thought this series is going to be great. And I was wrong. I thought ES cheapened Ender and Bean. Basically it said, Bean > Ender, which I was appaulled even though I liked Bean, and Bean is only smart because he's a crazy mutant. The rest of the series was good. But the more I read into the story, the more it seems like Card is trying to make Bean a god. I believed it was originally said by Card that Bean would be dead by the end of Shadow Puppets and here we are with him still alive at the "end" of the series. I think Bean is a facinating character, but he isn't the Bean I liked in EG. And even though I enjoyed the series, while reading it, I would find myself thinking, "Ender would have done this" or "This would be better if Ender was here" or something along those lines.

So in closing, EG >>> ES. Speaker series is great. Shadow series is good.

And I was also confused by the gay man marrying a straight women. Nothing really popped out in my head.

Synesthesia
Launchie
Launchie
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:10 am

Postby Synesthesia » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:33 am

Synthesia, which gay man marries a straight woman? Anton? I don't recall any of the characters in either series' being gay, and that fact being mentioned.

Still, EG is my favorite in both series'.
Don't you remember that scene where Petra wanted to have Bean's babies so they went to Anton and Anton told them of the web of life and how the only way to join it was to get married and have babies? He mentioned that even though he had certain proclivities (homosexuality) he was going to marry a woman with a good deal of children and already he was worrying about them.
It bugged me a good deal.

vendor
Soldier
Soldier
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:09 pm
Location: In Dicator

Postby vendor » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:13 am

I like the Shadow series more- WAY more. I could barely "eat" Xenocide, and I'm a sci-fi bookworm. And CotM was WAY too much philosophy for me..so I stepped down, reading the basic plot on Wikipedia to know the end of the series, and ignoring the philosophical content.

IMO, Geopolitics and millitary>Philosophy by a long shot.
Still, EG is my favorite in both series'.
My thoughts exactly!
...but paranoia is all I have!!

User avatar
Luet
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 4511
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Title: Bird Nerd
First Joined: 01 Jul 2000
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Luet » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:46 pm

I think it's all about what interests you. Geopolitics and military stories bore me to no end. I read the Shadow books because I love EG and did want to find out what happened to the battle school kids but had to slog through the political posturing to do that. On the other hand, the genuine-feeling character development and deeply meshed community and familial bonds of SftD and Xenocide made them some of my favs of all time (SftD moreso). I agree that CotM went a little overboard on the metaphysical philosophizing tho. I have a hard time rereading that without skimming parts.
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus in Return to Tipasa

zeroguy
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2741
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:29 pm
Title: 01111010 01100111
First Joined: 0- 8-2001
Location: Where you least expect me.
Contact:

Postby zeroguy » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:04 pm

Ditto on everything Luet said, except the last part on CotM (just differing preferences). I mean, just this statement:
IMO, Geopolitics and millitary>Philosophy by a long shot.
That may sum up the whole Speaker/Shadow preferences, right there. I cannot even imagine how the left side of that could ever be more interesting than the right side.
Proud member of the Canadian Alliance.

dgf hhw

Eaquae Legit
Speaker for the Dead
Speaker for the Dead
Posts: 5185
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:30 pm
Title: Age quod agis
First Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Location: ^ Geez, read the sign.

Postby Eaquae Legit » Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:42 am

Amen, zero.
"Only for today, I will devote 10 minutes of my time to some good reading, remembering that just as food is necessary to the life of the body, so good reading is necessary to the life of the soul." -- Pope John XXIII

User avatar
starlooker
Commander
Commander
Posts: 3823
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:19 pm
Title: Dr. Mom
First Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Home. With cats who have names.

Postby starlooker » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:30 am

Ditto.
There's another home somewhere,
There's another glimpse of sky...
There's another way to lean
into the wind, unafraid.
There's another life out there...

~~Mary Chapin Carpenter

Eddie Pinz
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:27 pm
Title: Ganon's Bane

Postby Eddie Pinz » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:14 am

I don't think that it just boils down to the subject. I agree that the geopolitics and military vs philosophy has a great deal to do with it, but I also feel the Speaker series is just better written too.

User avatar
BonitoDeMadrid
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 am
Title: Bonzo was Framed
Location: The exact center of the earth

Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:06 pm

I don't think that it just boils down to the subject. I agree that the geopolitics and military vs philosophy has a great deal to do with it, but I also feel the Speaker series is just better written too.
That is, again, your opinion; IMO, the Shadow series is more well-written. Again, it depends on what you like- what genres, what writing styles, etc.

Plus, logically, I think since he wrote the Shadow series some years after finishing the Speaker series, it would be logical if his writing would be better in the Shadow series (btw sorry for any grammar mistakes- 1:05 am here) than in the Speaker series- as he had more experience of writing.
Then again, it depends on your style.
Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cavefish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!

Gravity Defier
Commander
Commander
Posts: 8017
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:32 pm
Title: Ewok in Tauntaun-land

Postby Gravity Defier » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:48 pm

He may be more practiced now but that does not by any means translate to him being a better storyteller.

Over the years, his writings have started to seem phoned in and watered down. He has, in my eyes, ruined some amazing and intriguing characters by continuing to write about them in ways that present those characters in a much different light than how they were first represented (Peter and Bean, of course, being the two that immediately come to mind).

Basically, it seems as though he knows people are loyal to the Enderverse and will throw less than high-quality stories at them as long as they shell out the money.
Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.

User avatar
neo-dragon
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2516
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:26 pm
Title: Huey Revolutionary
Location: Canada

Postby neo-dragon » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:58 pm

I think that the shadow books are underrated around here.

zeroguy
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2741
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:29 pm
Title: 01111010 01100111
First Joined: 0- 8-2001
Location: Where you least expect me.
Contact:

Postby zeroguy » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:40 pm

I don't think that it just boils down to the subject. I agree that the geopolitics and military vs philosophy has a great deal to do with it, but I also feel the Speaker series is just better written too.
That is, again, your opinion; IMO, the Shadow series is more well-written. Again, it depends on what you like- what genres, what writing styles, etc.
There are both opinions, of course, but well-written and genre preference are two different things. The pro-geopolitics v pro-philosophy stances clearly show a predisposition towards either the shadow or speaker series, but just because one is more enjoyable than the other doesn't make it "better writing". For example, there are a lot of things I don't like about Frank Herbert's writing style, but I do really like the Dune universe and the storyline in general, so I enjoy them nonetheless.

I don't really have an opinion on the writing styles of OSC, though. Where's Jebus when we need him?
Plus, logically, I think since he wrote the Shadow series some years after finishing the Speaker series, it would be logical if his writing would be better in the Shadow series (btw sorry for any grammar mistakes- 1:05 am here) than in the Speaker series- as he had more experience of writing.
This is a little ridiculous. His style arguably changes over time, yes, but more experience doesn't mean a better writer. You could argue that he attempts more pulp fiction these days, or is exploring areas he hasn't explored before (and shouldn't, if you are of the opinion). One could also say his political/religious leanings influence his writing as time goes on. Then again, you could also say his experience makes him avoid previous mistakes. Over time it could go either way.

EG and SftD both won the Hugo and Nebula awards. Has OSC won either again since that time?

I also haven't really heard anything negative about any of his works written before 1990 (although few people here have read them all; certainly not me).

Experience has little to do with it; painters and musicians don't necessarily get better with time ("their earlier stuff is better"), and writers are no different.
Proud member of the Canadian Alliance.

dgf hhw

Eddie Pinz
Toon Leader
Toon Leader
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:27 pm
Title: Ganon's Bane

Postby Eddie Pinz » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:16 am

I also think that personal preference is very different than thinking something is better written than something else.

A personal example: Xenocide is my favorite book of the series. However, I know EG and SftD are better written.

With the more experience thing, I think that is hogwash. The two series of books my be from the same universe, but they are very different and require different writting styles. Now, I'm not saying the Shadow books are badly written, just that they are not as good as the Speaker series. I would goes as far to say that OSC is better at writing philosophy than geopolitics.

As Alea said, he (in my view) destroyed some characters. Now that is an opinion. But what isn't an opinion that he definitely presented some characters differently than they were originally. Some people have no problem with this, obviously I'm not one of them.

Neo, I also think that people around here give the shadow series a harder time than it really deserves. Like I said before, it is a good series. But people expect certain things after the first series was so good. This might not be the perfect example, but it is the only one I can think of. How many people like the new star wars trilogy better than the original? Not a perfect example, but I think the newer movies are underrated and get it much harder than they deserve. Well except maybe the Phantom Menace, I think that one stunk pretty hard.

But I do know one thing, this discussion has definitely made me want to go back and reread the whole series.


Return to “EnderVerse Novels and Stories”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 22 guests