Global Warming

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Global Warming

Postby delta » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:32 am

Since I haven't seen any global warming topics, here's a place to discuss a rather controversial issue.

I can't link it because it's from Science News the magazine, but a recent study showed that plankton eddies on the surface on the ocean may not capture and deposit as much carbon as expected on the bottom of the ocean. This rebukes the idea that the mass growth of plankton on the ocean surface could control carbon dioxide levels, and thus, global warming, since it has often been conjectured that the amount of carbon dioxide in the air and the amount of plankton in the oceans could be highly interdependent (ie. As the amount of carbon dioxide in the air increased, the amount of plankton would increase, thus controlling carbon dioxide levels and causing the amount of carbon dioxide to decrease, which would in turn lower the amount of plankton at sea . . . ).

Anyways, I know this is rather unrelated to the EnderVerse, but hey, it's science. :wink:

So just some questions for discussion (as well as the stuff up above). What does everybody think about global warming? Is it caused by man, nature, or a combination of both? Do you think man should do something about it? If so, what?

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Postby vendor » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:33 pm

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/world_map.html

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... image&cd=2

I put a map of warm and cold ocean currents on top of hot spots and plate
lines. I think it is interesting that most major islands are in the line of
currents. Anyway I thought this might be handy since El Nino is caused by a
reversal of currents which in turn is caused by global warming.
...but paranoia is all I have!!

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Postby Aesculapius » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:12 am

I've heard from random people in my life that the only reason why people are buying Hybrid cars is because of the high gas prices (which are thankfully returning to 'normal').
Meaning that since the gas prices are indeed decreasing again, people will stop buying Hybrid cars. What do you think?

In a way, I guess it makes sense, but shouldn't people be buying Hybrid cars anyway, regardless of gas prices?

It's the right thing to do for the environment, to stop using so much gas, but people are more concerned about money. But, in the end, will it even matter who has more money? The world will melt or blow up at the rate things are going.

In the beginning I thought that there were people who were actually starting to realize that things need to be done to help prevent Global Warming, but I'm starting to think that they were just concerned about money.

Am I right or wrong? What do you think?
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Postby Olhado_ » Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:24 pm

Since you asked for our opinions on Global warming I will tell you what I think.

I personally think the earth probably is warming since I see the temperature readings and the science being it. Although, I am not so quick to come up with an explanation. I believe this because the Earth has been around for billions of years and we really only have comprehensive weather studies from the past 50-100 years, which is nothing, even if you just fact in the 3 to 4 thousand years that humans have been living here.

This said I do not really think even if the Earth is warming and will only get warmer there is nothing we can do to change it one way or another. The Earth after all can easily "kick us off" any time it pleases and there is nothing we can do about it; but adapt or die.

With all that said I really do not have any problem with all the "Go Green" products out there (besides for a non-science political theory). The reason is because I really do think we [society] are very wasteful and we should learn to conserve and reuse (or recycle). This has to go with plastic bag usage at stores to the big one energy usage. Oil is after all a limited commodity - even if it last another 100 years it is still limited - so we should develop some other means of energy production, from natural gas to wind and solar.

I also support the "Go Green" products because when it comes to energy savings it is also ultimately good on my wallet, like on my annual power and water bill.

This said as much as I am happy to see fuel price down I am also disappointed because I agree with the first point that people will not care about using energy saving products as long as the most popular (oil) is so cheap.
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Global Warming

Postby WigginWannabe » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:52 pm

Here's what I think, and I'll be frank.

Global Warming is happening, but humans are only responsible for about 3% of it. Enough to make a substantial difference? I don't think so. All the hype about people needing to stop poisoning the planet is a bunch of political kuso. People want to sell "Go Green" products, so they're trying to scare people into supporting them.

However, this does not mean I'm against "Go Green" products in any way. It can't hurt to use them, and finding alternative energy sources will lessen America's reliance on the countries that supply us, and therefore have power over us. Like Leto III rule in Frank Herbert's [i][u]Dune[/u][/i] series.

Besides, global warming might just be part of Earth's cycle. Air bubbles from ice caps show that during times right before an ice age there is a higher level carbon dioxide. It's entirely possibly that we're getting scared over something that happens naturally, and has been happening since the beginning of Earth. Granted, there currently are even higher levels of carbon dioxide than in the past, but for all we know it's accumulated over multiple ice ages, or the air bubbles tested have been diluted, or some other way that the evidence isn't completely accurate.

Remember, these are just my opinions (Aside from the scientific facts), and I don't wish to offend anybody.

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Postby elfprince13 » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:39 pm

The things is, saying things like that "apart from scientific facts" makes just exactly zero sense. How much do you know about the great atlantic conveyor, methane deposits, and positive feedback cyles?

And quite apart from whether or not we are responsible for global warming, we ARE destroying our planet and poisoning ourselves. Look up the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. Plastic chunks are breaking down though....to the point where individual plastic molecules can enter through your cell walls. And we're exhausting our natural resources. Ever heard of the Hubbert Curve? It's not just oil that we're peaking out on. Our phosphorus resources (and many others) are going down the s*****.
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Postby WigginWannabe » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:22 pm

[quote="elfprince13"]The things is, saying things like that "apart from scientific facts" makes just exactly zero sense.[/quote]

When I said that, all I meant was aside from the brief summary of the research results that I had written. I know what I posted was accurate because I learned it at a seminar and did additional research on the subject to check what I was told, especially on what I mentioned in my above comment. I apologize for not having any of the links.

[quote="elfprince13"]And quite apart from whether or not we are responsible for global warming, we ARE destroying our planet and poisoning ourselves.[/quote]

I agree that we could be healthier in regards to taking care of our planet, which is why I DO support "Go Green" products and all those little lifestyle habits that can be done. In my last comment I was referring only to global warming, it did not occur to me to mention my opinion on other things that are bad for Earth. I still don't believe that we are the sole, or even largest cause of planet poisoning, but I do believe in stopping what we are responsible for and the things that we aren't. What science allows us to fix, we should fix, regardless of the blame.

[quote]Ever heard of the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert peakl]Hubbert Curve[/url]? It's not just oil that we're peaking out on. Our phosphorus resources (and many others) are going down the s*****.[/quote]

Yes, I have heard of the Hubbert Curve, but I was not taking it into account when I posted before. My mistake. Getting out from under the thumb of oil supplier countries would not stop the oil decline, nor would it stop the decline of any other finite resource. But that's just all the more reason to find alternate ways to accomplish what these resources do for us. Easier said than done, I know, but possible. Besides, is it an unreasonable wish, to be a self-suppliant country?

I apologize for not portraying my thoughts clearly before, and if I failed to do so again. I'm not particularly good at that; I'm trying to improve.
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Re: Global Warming

Postby jotabe » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:51 pm

Global Warming is happening, but humans are only responsible for about 3% of it. Enough to make a substantial difference?
This is the key point. Climate, same as weather (and they are different things altogether) is a highly non-linear system. That means that when you find such a system at equilibrium and disturb one of the variables by a small amount, the change in the system will increase non-linearly with the change you introduced.

Such systems often have feedbacks that help them stabilize. Climate is one such system. You might change one variable, and keep it changing, and measure no significative change in the system. But if you keep increasing the change you introduce, you might reach a tipping point, where the system suddenly changes altogether.
This might or might not be the situation we are at. But most models point towards it being so.

Our world has suffered such climate changes linked to relatively small shifts in the ratio of the different atmospheric gases and the existence of dust. Of course, the arrangement of the continents is critical as well for the climate (for example, our current continental situation in the northern hemisphere is one of the few that allow for lasting ice ages), so it's hard to transfer the changes from the past to our current situation. There might be more stabilizing feedbacks we currently account for.
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Glenn Beck's right on here

Postby hkobb7 » Sun May 23, 2010 4:34 pm

Mr. Beck consistently plays a video of an avowed Communist on his program.
In it, the aforementioned Communist (I can never remember his name, my apologies) makes note of the fact that if the ENTIRE power generation sector were to be eliminated in the United States, emissions would go down less than 50 percent (again, in the US). Temperatures have also stopped their "cataclysmic" climb, again adding fuel (pardon the pun) to the theory that global warming is, in fact, not caused by humans, and that it may even no longer be a problem.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258342,00.html

Note the lead scientist's name, in paragraph four. Once you note his name, feel free to laugh if you wish.

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Postby Rei » Sun May 23, 2010 6:45 pm

Just to check, a translation of your post is: "Global warming is a Communist plot to overthrow America". Did I understand correctly, or am I missing something?
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Postby jotabe » Mon May 24, 2010 1:56 am

Here i am trying to work out the point of hkobb's post: he seems to think agw is a communist plot, yes, but then he proceeds to laugh at the guy that says that the sun is a major factor in the climate change.

I won't say the laughter isn't unwarranted. The guy has like 7 papers in peer-reviewed journal (i wonder how that curriculum made him head of space research anywhere, unless Fox information is less than reliable), all of them about solar cycles. This is a case of "trees don't let you see the forest".
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Good God

Postby hkobb7 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:17 am

@Jotabe

Do please learn to read. If you had indeed read my post, you may have noticed that my jibe was at the Russian scientist's name. Coming from a Polish family, it's a rather running joke to poke fun at Eastern European names.

In response to both your and Rei's baseless, pointless remarks regarding Communism's relation to global warming, I would advise you to read my comment! At what point did I implicate Communism in a "plot to overthrow America"? If (again, that seems to be a big "if") you actually understood my comment (is English perhaps your second language?), you would realize that the word "Communist" is used as an identifier, just as the words "fat man" or "hedonist" would be used in a similar context.

Also, @jotabe, I take issue with your thinly-veiled blow toward Fox News' balance as a news organization. If you've never watched the network or rarely watch it, allow me to enlighten you: Opinion and news on Fox are clearly separated, so much so, in fact, that George Washington University found Fox to be the most balanced news organization during the primaries and caucuses of 2008. However, I'm sure you couldn't have found that particular study on the Huffington Post (took me 15 minutes to find myself) or the Daily Kos, so I suppose I can't blame you.

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Postby jotabe » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:01 am

Oh well, sorry for not understanding a joke that was intended to be funny merely to you.

Then, if you care to explain, what was the point of your post?

And no, we don't get much of Fox News tv here on Spain, but still we can read the website. And precisely the coverage of certain "issues" (non-issues) on global warming is what assures me of the poor quality of the journalism in Fox News. Just two examples:

News on Fox: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,586025,00.html
Actual story they took it from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8511670.stm
So the Fox couldn't bother to read the whole interview. Either that, or they manipulated the information.
Why did questioner B chose 1995? Because the years after 1995 have huge spikes upwards and downwards in temperature, destroying the significance of the graph. If you chose 1994-2010 for example, this effect disappears. So the questioner B knew what he was doing, chosing the single data that could suit his thesis (against a sea of data that didn't), and expecting Phil Jones to behave like a honest scients, which he did.

News on Fox: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/02/ ... ls-errors/
Actual retraction: http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v3/n ... eo780.html
Paper published by the guys who warned the paper authors of their mistake: http://www.pik-potsdam.de/~stefan/Publi ... f_2009.pdf
So, the guys who corrected the retracted paper actually predict a higher sea-rise level than them. This wouldn't stop Fox News from writing a tendentious paper and not mentioning this, obviously.

Btw, what's George Washington University? I haven't heard of it, just Yale, Harvard, Princenton, Berkeley, UCLA, MIT... oh, and Davis, where my colleage is doing his post-doc fellowship.

Incidentally i don't know the Huffington Post either, nor the Daily Kos. Aren't they front groups of the WSJ or something?
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Postby Rei » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:38 pm

Let's be honest, hkobb7, you managed to mention the word "Communist" twice in a rather short post about how global warming is not really caused by human activity and focused on data concerning the United States. The juxtaposition of these three things is what causes it to sound like you are suggesting that global warming caused by humans is Communist propaganda or some such thing.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure I've heard the word "Communist" used as a pejorative against someone since I last watched M*A*S*H. More often when you use that term, my mind jumps to, you know, Communism and the Red Scare that has never quite died.
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Communism

Postby hkobb7 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:04 am

Again, the term "Communist" was used identically in both instances in which it was used, as an identifier (his name is Jed Brandt, by the way). Regardless, that is completely irrelevant when my original post is considered. Brandt's statement regarding pollution's effect on global warming was the point of my including him in my post, not the fact that he is a Communist, and that was the only way I could identify him at that time.

@jotabe
George Washington University is a nationally-respected private institution located in Washington, DC. http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... rsity-1444

Beyond that, I hardly believe that one or two "examples" of "shoddy journalism" is enough to demonstrate a particular bias, which I again insist that Fox does not possess. Furthermore, in the larger context of the issue, you seem to be ignoring the rather large group of scientists who seem to be backing away from or outright rejecting global warming theory as it is currently presented by some of the international community. You say you are familiar with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology? Dr. Richard Lindzen, Professor of Atmospheric Science there, is a skeptic of mainstream global warming, as is Dr. William Happer, a physicist at Princeton University. They are amongst many of their colleagues, listed here. To me, global warming as it is commonly presented rates somewhere slightly below Darwinian evolution and somewhere above the Grassy Knoll on the "Plausibility Meter".

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Postby jotabe » Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:32 am

What "rather large group of scientists"? I hear all the time about these supposedly growing group of scientists who don't think there is an antropogenic global warming, but their research output seems to be nil. Also, when they talk about such group (like the famous 650), it always appears that most of those scientists have no scientific credentials related to the topic.

There are no global-warming skeptic scientists. There are scientists, period. And scientists have to be skeptic. But surprise! skepticism also includes acknowledging what data says. Some scientist obtain data that is inconsistent with one or more of the suppositions and conclusions of an AGW, and of course, they have to defend their data, because that helps reaching the truth. Nevertheless, most of the published research on climate change is consistent with the IPCC scennario.

Let me tell you a story: once upon a time, continents were thought to be stable. Then came Wegener with is continental drift hypothesis, and he seemed to be right, but the mechanism didn't make sense physically, so it had to be discarded. Eventually, the good mechanism was discovered and Plate Tectonics theory was developed. It gained momentum thanks to all the research and testing verifying it, and it seemed to be the truth. Nevertheless some scientists didn't like it, didn't think it could work. Being in the minority and against a theory that has experimental support means you could well be wrong, but being wrong isn't a sin in science: it happens all the time. But this is what separates scientists from crooks: while many of the tectonics-skeptics were embracing the crudest pseudoscience, others were making good science. Defending the wrong option, their contribution was still very valuable because it found the weaknesses that Tectonics had, and helped to get closer to the truth.

Scientists who publish data that doesn't fit in current mainstream of climate modelling is of extreme importance. Researchers who find weaknesses and faults in the AGW are making a great service to science and to the knowledge of the AGW itself. But the evidence isn't majoritarily with them.

On the other hand, we have the crooks, in both sides obviously. But being a crook who is in the side of the facts merely makes you a shady maneuverer. Being a crook against the facts makes you, and the people who manage to bias to you, the laughing stock.

About George Washington University.... well, maybe it's respected nationally, but it ranks pretty low worldwide:
http://www.scimagoir.com/pdf/sir_2009_world_report.pdf
I mean, it ranks even lower than my university XD (385 vs 408)!
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Postby Rei » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:31 am

O_O

I knew my school was generally counted as a pretty good school. I didn't quite realise HOW good, though. 'S too bad I still hate the ling programme there, anyway :P (Dang Noam Chomsky worshippers...)
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Postby jotabe » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:40 am

lol i thought that linguistics was the only thing Chomsky was good at :lol:
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Postby Gravity Defier » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:43 am

Se paciente y duro; algún día este dolor te será útil.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:29 pm

I'm actually pretty impressed with Canada's standings, considering how few universities we have compared to the US or China. I'm a bit sad that UWaterloo was only at 223, though. :( I guess it's because of their emphasis on teaching.
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Postby Rei » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:49 pm

lol i thought that linguistics was the only thing Chomsky was good at :lol:
That may well be, but I have severe disagreements with how it was, at the very least, taught at the UofT. It was all rather lacking in clear reason and they could not give a clear rational for Universal Grammar. While such a thing may exist, I am still highly skeptical of it; especially as UG looks altogether too close to some combination of English and French.
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Screw it

Postby hkobb7 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:02 pm

The fact that you can disregard the professional opinions of so many scientists is rather indicative of the purposelessness of this conversation.

Also, it's interesting that you use that particular study. Keep in mind it only evaluates the research prowess of the respective institutes. This study also ranks the American Scripps Institute and the Smithsonian Institute below Georgetown University, and the University of Iowa above those three. Also, I noticed that the United States National Aeronautics and Space Administration is below Washington University. When I saw all this, I began to doubt the study.

Then, I read the criteria used to evaluate the institutes. The study evaluates not just research, but only research output, and not quality of said research, only perceived quality. This study's ranking of Georgetown University has no bearing on the pertinence of the university's study of American news organizations.

So, anyway, like I said, screw it. This disagreement is pointless, since you seem to ignore science that does not support your own conclusion.

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Postby jotabe » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:02 am

It values research output in relation with impact factor of the publication (quality of the journal where you publish the paper) and number of citation per paper (that is, how many other research papers have found your research relevant/useful to their own). So yes, it measures both amountand quality of the research.
Also, this report has been made by one of the leading editorials in scientific publishing, Elsevier, so it doesn't have invested interests in favouring anyone.

I find that research output is basically the only objective parameter to judge research institutions, as universities are. We are talking about science here, not about tuition costs / campus services / how much money lawyers coming from that college make 5 years after graduating.

I don't disregard them. I only regard their opinions as long as they are evidence-supported enough to make it to a relevant scientific journal. Opinions, by themselves, yes, they are irrelevant.
This disagreement is pointless, since you seem to ignore science that does not support your own conclusion.
Oh i see, so you are that kind of person, sorry, didn't realize.
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