Fundies!

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!
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Postby VelvetElvis » Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:53 am

fetus, I could say something, and I would mean it, but I would not like myself very much if I said it.

Anyhow, your rampant hate of all things Christian is a bit wearing. Learn a new song.
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Postby eriador » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:30 am

Rampant hate of all things Christian!? I wouldn't say that. Even if you accept that it's rampant hate (which it isn't in my book) I'd say it applies to anything monotheistic and/or dogmatic.

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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:37 pm

Don't feed the bezoar, guys. Geeze.
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Postby Jebus » Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:36 pm

All this intolerance in a thread about tolerance.

Kinda funny.

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Postby eriador » Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:44 am

Ummm. The title is "Fundies" This stands for fundamentalists who are intolerant. Therefore, I'd say that the thread is about intolerance, not tolerance, but that would be nit-picking :p

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Postby Jebus » Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:31 am

Ah, but nit-picking and not knowing when you're not required to press that little submit button is how we've come to know and love you, eriador.

Well it's how we've come to know you. :)

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Postby Scott » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:06 am

Seriously, I am a strong Christian, please tolerate me. I accept your different views on God.
One of those clauses is a lie.
I don't see how those 2 statements are even contradictory. The 1st statement just means I believe strongly that God exists and that Jesus is his Son.

The 2nd statement just means I do not force or expect other people to believe what I believe. You chose to be atheist, I tolerate and accept that. I won't even try to change your mind.

**Eriador, I'm not offended that you thought I lied. EL is the moderator and he took offense where there was none, but rules are rules so next time I "lie" just call it a contradiction.
I have not read all your posts but from what I've seen, you are very intelligent and back up your thoughts quite well with just a touch of arrogance.**
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Postby wizzard » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:50 am

**Eriador, I'm not offended that you thought I lied. EL is the moderator and he took offense where there was none, but rules are rules so next time I "lie" just call it a contradiction.
I have not read all your posts but from what I've seen, you are very intelligent and back up your thoughts quite well with just a touch of arrogance.**
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Postby Rei » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:31 am

Isn't he? I thought Linus was a guys' name..
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Postby eriador » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:25 am

Seriously, I am a strong Christian, please tolerate me. I accept your different views on God.
One of those clauses is a lie.
I don't see how those 2 statements are even contradictory. The 1st statement just means I believe strongly that God exists and that Jesus is his Son.

The 2nd statement just means I do not force or expect other people to believe what I believe. You chose to be atheist, I tolerate and accept that. I won't even try to change your mind.

**Eriador, I'm not offended that you thought I lied. EL is the moderator and he took offense where there was none, but rules are rules so next time I "lie" just call it a contradiction.
I have not read all your posts but from what I've seen, you are very intelligent and back up your thoughts quite well with just a touch of arrogance.**
Scott, thank you. I guess I do see a contradiction because I interpret the word "accept" differently. I believe that what you are saying is that you accept the fact that I believe what I believe. You don't accept those beliefs themselves. That's why I believe that tolerate is a better word.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:41 pm

**Eriador, I'm not offended that you thought I lied. EL is the moderator and he took offense where there was none, but rules are rules so next time I "lie" just call it a contradiction.
I have not read all your posts but from what I've seen, you are very intelligent and back up your thoughts quite well with just a touch of arrogance.**
I'm endlessly amused that everyone always assumes EL is male
Noli confundere populos, Magge.
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Postby BonitoDeMadrid » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:49 am

**Eriador, I'm not offended that you thought I lied. EL is the moderator and he took offense where there was none, but rules are rules so next time I "lie" just call it a contradiction.
I have not read all your posts but from what I've seen, you are very intelligent and back up your thoughts quite well with just a touch of arrogance.**
I'm endlessly amused that everyone always assumes EL is male
Noli confundere populos, Magge.
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Postby Jebus » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:19 am

**Eriador, I'm not offended that you thought I lied. EL is the moderator and he took offense where there was none, but rules are rules so next time I "lie" just call it a contradiction.
I have not read all your posts but from what I've seen, you are very intelligent and back up your thoughts quite well with just a touch of arrogance.**
I'm endlessly amused that everyone always assumes EL is male
Noli confundere populos, Magge.
4favor, English. Some of us haven't gone to Latin class.
Well that's evident, cause it's spanish not latin, and he's saying he wants some tacos.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:17 am

Even mods are allowed to use irony.
"Only for today, I will devote 10 minutes of my time to some good reading, remembering that just as food is necessary to the life of the body, so good reading is necessary to the life of the soul." -- Pope John XXIII

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Postby eriador » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:43 am

*bump*
Seriously, I am a strong Christian, please tolerate me. I accept your different views on God.
One of those clauses is a lie.
I don't see how those 2 statements are even contradictory. The 1st statement just means I believe strongly that God exists and that Jesus is his Son.

The 2nd statement just means I do not force or expect other people to believe what I believe. You chose to be atheist, I tolerate and accept that. I won't even try to change your mind.

**Eriador, I'm not offended that you thought I lied. EL is the moderator and he took offense where there was none, but rules are rules so next time I "lie" just call it a contradiction.
I have not read all your posts but from what I've seen, you are very intelligent and back up your thoughts quite well with just a touch of arrogance.**
Scott, thank you. I guess I do see a contradiction because I interpret the word "accept" differently. I believe that what you are saying is that you accept the fact that I believe what I believe. You don't accept those beliefs themselves. That's why I believe that tolerate is a better word.

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Postby anonshadow » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:46 am

There is a difference between accepting a belief as valid--or even as reasonable--and believing it yourself. Acceptance is not agreement.

And Scott, don't worry--you'll learn the truth about eriador soon enough.



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Postby eriador » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:25 pm

If you accept that an opinion is valid you cannot hold a contradictory opinion, because they can't BOTH be valid. You can accept that I believe x, but you can't accept x if you believe in a contradictory y.

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Postby Dr. Mobius » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:37 pm

**Eriador... you are very intelligent and back up your thoughts quite well with just a touch of arrogance.**
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Postby Scott » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:47 am

There is a difference between accepting a belief as valid--or even as reasonable--and believing it yourself. Acceptance is not agreement.

And Scott, don't worry--you'll learn the truth about eriador soon enough.
Since my words started this semantic argument, I will attempt to end it.
Eriador is locked in on only one meaning of the word 'accept' - "to regard as true".

Eriador, try some other meaning of the word accept - "To perceive or recognize the meaning of"
or "To understand as having a specific meaning"

Seriously, I am a strong Christian, please tolerate me. I accept your different views on God.
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Postby eriador » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:32 am

I do tolerate you. I do accept that you believe differently from me. I do accept that you have a basis for believing what you believe. I do not accept your beliefs in and of themselves.

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Postby anonshadow » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:38 pm

If you accept that an opinion is valid you cannot hold a contradictory opinion, because they can't BOTH be valid. You can accept that I believe x, but you can't accept x if you believe in a contradictory y.
Um. Sure. Except for all the parts where that's totally not the case. You need to look up the word valid in the dictionary, I think. Valid doesn't mean correct. It means believable, or justifiable. Accepting that other beliefs are justifiable is not agreeing with those other beliefs. It is accepting that the belief itself can be supported with some evidence.



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Postby eriador » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:37 pm

However, that goes against the idea in most religions that they represent "the one absolute truth." A self-described "strong Christian" should subscribe to this (based on the "strong" and "weak" beliefs outlined in this forum), which means the statements are still contradictory.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:45 pm

One can believe in a Truth and also believe that other people have good and rational reasons for believing something else.
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Postby anonshadow » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:24 pm

Yeah that one.



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Postby eriador » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:11 am

One can believe in a Truth and also believe that other people have good and rational reasons for believing something else.
Then they're simply being arbitrarily illogical, which is a much greater sin than being contradictory.

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Postby Rei » Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:31 am

It is more arbitrarily illogical to refuse to even consider that anyone else might ever be right than it is to accept that it is possible, even if you personally feel that what you believe is Truth. That is one of my issues with militant atheism, or militant anything, really: it has chosen one belief (fair enough) and it refuses to even consider that anybody else could ever possibly be right because it's obvious that they are foolish people. That, to me, is by far more arbitrarily illogical than the simple acceptance that it is possible my beliefs are not Truth and someone else's are.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:14 am

No. They're not.

Have a nice day. :)
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Postby eriador » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:36 am

Rei, I've said many times before that I do consider other people's points. Just because I decide that they are foolish doesn't mean I don't consider it. Grow a fucking brain and listen to me. I've said this too many times and you've refused to consider the possibility that I'm not lying.

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Postby Jebus » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:44 am

Aaaah, an angry teenager! Quick, someone throw him some porn magazines to distract him!

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:51 pm

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"Only for today, I will devote 10 minutes of my time to some good reading, remembering that just as food is necessary to the life of the body, so good reading is necessary to the life of the soul." -- Pope John XXIII

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Postby vendor » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:38 pm

Sometimes I think that the level of tolerance accepted varies on popular government ideals. Fascism on one side having no tolerance (cut away the cancer attitude), and Socialism on the other where it seems taboo to censor.

I am more moderate. I believe in being agreeable as much as possible, and at the same time, I can't tolerate some attitudes and behaviors.
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Postby endercoaster » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:08 pm

There's no need to attack a person for stating opinions. However, when a person states their opinions, they put their opinions up for debate, simple as that. If you can't defend your opinion, then you really shouldn't have them.
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Postby Wil » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:09 pm

There's no need to attack a person for stating opinions. However, when a person states their opinions, they put their opinions up for debate, simple as that. If you can't defend your opinion, then you really shouldn't have them.
Unless, of course, your opinion is for/against God. Or, rather, subjects in general where there can not be no clear cut winner because there is no proof or defining reasoning for or against either side. Agnosticism for the win!

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Postby Dr. Mobius » Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:07 pm

I don't think there's any subjects with clear cut winners when it comes to "debates" on the computertubes.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:37 pm

Unless, of course, your opinion is for/against God. Or, rather, subjects in general where there can not be no clear cut winner because there is no proof or defining reasoning for or against either side. Agnosticism for the win!
N.B. The following is not a rant directed primarily at you, Wil, but you happened to say the wrong thing at the wrong time.

The study and theory of religion isn't just "what I believe." It's a complicated, interdisciplinary field involving philosophy, anthropology, linguistics, history, political science, literature, art, and a whole lot more. It has rules and guidelines and conventions just like any other field. You have to study and read and learn just like any other field. We don't just shoot from the hip like so many ignorant chickens, as so many people seem to think it's okay to do.

There's far more to the topic of religion that the average idiot on the street thinks, but for some reason only the loud, ignorant idiot on the street gets to talk. And somehow they think their opinion should count as much as someone who has poured years of their life into the field, because after all, "it's what I believe and you can't say anything against it!!!" Excuse me, but I don't walk into a psych class and assume that because I have a brain too I get to claim equal weight as the prof.

It's not just a free-for-all, and statements like you made, Wil, really get my goat. I find them academically offensive (not to be confused with personally offensive). No, there can't be a "winner." But opinions can be attacked or defended, because there ARE norms to the debate. And people who have studied and poured the time and effort into the field have the right to demand those norms be held to.

But then, most of the people I find worth talking to on the subject aren't interested in winning in the first place.
"Only for today, I will devote 10 minutes of my time to some good reading, remembering that just as food is necessary to the life of the body, so good reading is necessary to the life of the soul." -- Pope John XXIII


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