Who matters?

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Who matters?

Postby Scott » Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:52 pm

On the grand scale of human civilization, I think the vast majority of us don't matter. I think the only ones who do matter are the inventors and the researchers who's work actually advance society. I'm speaking of the Einstein's, Edison's, scientists and researchers who invent or improve.

The rest of us are important only in the sense that we help these type of people survive, develop and grow so that they may be able to achieve such accomplishments.

Note I am only talking about the grand scheme of things, not on an individual level because we all matter in our own little way.
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Postby eriador » Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:14 pm

It's all a matter of perspective. You should elaborate on the point you were making about the scale you're looking at.

Take a look at this.

Does Einstein matter to Antares? I didn't think so.

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Postby Scott » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:22 pm

I thought my first sentence was pretty clear: "On the grand scale of human civilization". :)

I will clarify, the scale I am talking about is all of human civilization on planet earth.
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Postby Jebus » Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:37 pm

So in the grand scheme of things are only the people who affect the grand scheme of things the ones who matter?

Yea I'd say so.

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Postby eriador » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:37 pm

My response would be some sort of metaphysical bullshit along these lines: because the scale of human civilization is so tiny, nothing in it is significant.

However, that's bullshit because you have specified a certain scale that we can consider a maximum (human civilization) and limited it to a certain scale of elements (human beings). I still say nobody matters though, because civilization is greater than the sum of its parts.

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Postby Eaquae Legit » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:16 pm

I don't care too much about the Grand Scheme. My personal scheme is as much as I care to handle, and on that scale, normal and unremarkable people have extraordinary and remarkable effects.

Basically, I don't care for your question, so I reject your answer.

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Postby Locke_ » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:18 pm

Obviously the notable historical figures who contributed to progress in one way or another will "matter" more. Personally, I think, and I think that the ones who we considered "mattered" would think as well, that anyone who devoted themselves to trying to accomplish things matter just as much. We're just not as notable.
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Postby jotabe » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:02 am

“If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.”
-Sir Isaac Newton

But if those giants became giants is because the stood on some other giants. There wouldn't be Einstein without Plank, Faraday or Maxwell. No Maxwell without Lagrange nor Lagrange without Newton and Leibnitz. No Newton without Galileo, Barrow and Kepler... then we even go to the Scholastic, and the Greek phylosophy. But even then, all these people owe to their parents, and family, the people around who stimulated, and contributed to them.
Human giants are only so because they are made of so many people.

You never know: maybe some of your mates is to become the next Newton, and you are stimulating them, or you did stimulate them in the past. Maybe even second hand.

The great achievements of mankind are surely individual, but at the same time, they are achievements of the whole human race, improving for survival.

Btw, Antares better be worrying about Einstein. Because the progress chain that has Einstein as one of the strongest links (actually progress is more like a chainmail than like a single chain) will end up, hopefully, solving the single biggest threat Mankind will ever have to face: the steady increase of entropy. And that affects Antares. Maybe she will become a test subject of us.
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Postby eriador » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:55 am

You speak as if humans are the only ones to be discovering these things. That is arrogant. Take another look at that page and just consider how tiny you are. Hell, how tiny mankind is, how tiny your God is.

That's what I believe. I believe in my own insignificance.

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Postby Rei » Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:46 pm

And that everyone else is a stuck-up fool. How arrogant.
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Postby eriador » Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:09 pm

if you say so

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Postby Scott » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:03 pm

Human giants are only so because they are made of so many people.

You never know: maybe some of your mates is to become the next Newton, and you are stimulating them, or you did stimulate them in the past. Maybe even second hand.

The great achievements of mankind are surely individual, but at the same time, they are achievements of the whole human race, improving for survival.
The rest of us are important only in the sense that we help these type of people survive, develop and grow so that they may be able to achieve such accomplishments.

I'll just use Einstein as an example. He would not be without his parents, his teachers, etc. The guy who never killed him, but could have, he's just as important in your view because he allowed Einstein to live. The farmer who grew crops so Einstein could eat. On and on.

We all have roles here, we just perform our roles in order for civilization continue. The important people are the ones whose work advance civilization.
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Postby jotabe » Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:52 am

I think you are considering "the ones who advance civilization" somewhat outside the civilization itself. And i don't think so, because without them, civilization would also stop. It would stagnate and collapse.

We could reverse your argument: the truly important people are those who sustain civilization; without them, the people with revolutionary ideas would be simply flickers in the universe. Sparks that die. The people who sustain the human civilization are who fixate those ideas. Who use those ideas to shape the Universe.
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Postby Scott » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:44 pm

I think you are considering "the ones who advance civilization" somewhat outside the civilization itself. And i don't think so, because without them, civilization would also stop. It would stagnate and collapse.
No, I consider every human part of civilization. I just consider some more important than others (not in the religious or spiritual sense).
We could reverse your argument: the truly important people are those who sustain civilization; without them, the people with revolutionary ideas would be simply flickers in the universe. Sparks that die. The people who sustain the human civilization are who fixate those ideas. Who use those ideas to shape the Universe.
Why would you reverse my argument? It doesn't make sense.
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Postby jotabe » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:31 am

I am reversing your argument, so argue that from a certain point of view, you could say that the people who is truly important is the people who sustain civilization, not who advance it.
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Postby 21BRAVO » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:25 am

Are certain individuals more important than others, in the "grand scheme of things"? I would think so, for I certainly know some completely worthless individuals. But I ponder something else: are celebrities (actors, musicians, athletes, etc.) important in the grand scheme? If so, are they MORE important than the Einsteins et al? I sometimes think they must be (though I can't really see why) because we seem to be more concerned about how many children Brad Pitt is adopting rather than what advancements are being made in curing cancer. To sum up: are celebrities important in the grand scheme of things? If not, why do we pay so much attention to them?
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