Pro what?

Talk about anything under the sun or stars - but keep it civil. This is where we really get to know each other. Everyone is welcome, and invited!

Are you pro-life or pro-choice?

Pro-life
13
34%
Pro-choice
25
66%
 
Total votes: 38

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Postby neo-dragon » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:06 pm

starfox wrote:If you follow that argument to its conclusion, saying something is "possibly" alive kind of falls apart. What about right when the egg is fertilized? How about before? An egg cell is alive. Is every girl condemning the "possibly" alive every time they have their period?


Even if you say that an egg cell is "alive" menstruation would be the natural end of its life. You can't really compare that to a deliberate act of destroying it.
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Postby DEK » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:50 pm

Even if you say that an egg cell is "alive" menstruation would be the natural end of its life.


By the same measure, sperm dying inside a woman's body is the natural life cycle.
I was referring to something with different DNA that will develop into its own life, so epigenetics is irrelevant (since the DNA is the same), so are individual egg and sperm cells (since neither will become a fetus on its own), and so are mutations (since no mutation will fertilize an egg on its own, I think).
Since the entire topic here is about abortion, the underlying assumption is that we're talking about something that will grow up to be human if you don't kill it, not just random cells (so don't even think about mentioning chimerism, or viruses injecting their own genetic material, or cancer).

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Postby shadow_8818 » Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:08 pm

Life is good, choice is even better.
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Postby Alexander » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:51 pm

To die or to live a life where nobody wants you there. Think about the child who has to live a life of shame and every day the mother hates her own child but she couldnt abort the child because of pro-life people. or worse would be for the child to go into foster home's

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Postby lyons24000 » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:48 pm

And yet, the adoptive parents would love it like it was their own.
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Postby shadow_8818 » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:00 pm

if it got adoptive parents, hundreds of kids go through foster care for years and year
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Postby jotabe » Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:36 am

shadow_8818 wrote:if it got adoptive parents, hundreds of kids go through foster care for years and year


Because not enough pro-life people decide to adopt children. It's easier to go to the street and be indignant than actually do something to help.

My take on the matter is that, while we definitely have "something" alive there, it is not human. Not at the start, at least. I see the start of the human life when the nervous system starts connecting, around the beginning of the third month. After all our brain, our extremely complicated neural network is what makes us human: without that, we aren't remotely human. We have to experiences, no way to connect ourselves to the world, no way to store memories, not even way to acquire memories (because the nervous tissue isn't connected before then).

A believer as i am in the concept of a physical soul, i can't see an embryo that young having a soul, even.
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Postby Jeesh_girl15 » Tue May 05, 2009 3:04 pm

As a catholic Christian, I believe any type of life has a soul, no matter how small. Anyway, I can't believe anyone is stupid enough to think that abortion/ pro-choice is Ok at all.God made all living things holy and sacred, especially human beings. All you pro-choice freaks out there, Do you think an embryo/unborn baby regardless how old it is nothuman?

Me and my pro-choice friend argue this point all the time, and it doesn't always turn out pretty. Her mom has this button, though, and I think it is hilarious even though I don't agree with it's point. It says
If You're so pro-life why don't you try getting one?
It's hanging in her car.

I know it would be so extremely hard on a young girl to have such responsibility on her. But, why have sex in the first place? Again, I am a Catholic, and we oppose pre-marital sex. Not that it doesn't always seem appealing.

Sure, it's called Pro-choice to abort a baby. I think you should have the choice, it's yourbaby you're killing. But, if you do abort it, I call that pro-death.

Well, that's what I think as a 14-year-old kid. I know I'm young, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid
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Postby Jebus » Tue May 05, 2009 5:16 pm

Jeesh_girl15 wrote:As a catholic Christian, I believe any type of life has a soul, no matter how small. Anyway, I can't believe anyone is stupid enough to think that abortion/ pro-choice is Ok at all.God made all living things holy and sacred, especially human beings. All you pro-choice freaks out there, Do you think an embryo/unborn baby regardless how old it is nothuman?

. . .

Sure, it's called Pro-choice to abort a baby. I think you should have the choice, it's yourbaby you're killing. But, if you do abort it, I call that pro-death.


I wouldn't provoke the stupid, pro-death freaks if I were you. They are a vulgar, brutish bunch who won't hesitate to sling unwarranted insults your way instead of engaging in meaningful discussion.

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Postby Yebra » Wed May 06, 2009 4:50 am

Evil pro-death freak checkin' in.

I have no problem with Abortion before certain development milestones because souls are entirely imaginary. If it ain't joined up upstairs yet, I really have no moral qualm whatsoever. My only slight objection was the possibility that abortion was more psychologically damaging for the woman than giving the child away for adoption, but given the idea of 'post-abortion syndrome' is a complete myth and reading some truly haunting stories of the consequences and depression felt by women who gave up their children for adoption (not that this is necessarily a universal reaction, but it seems odd given all the attention paid to the horror of having an abortion you rarely ever hear this side of it), this likewise isn't an issue for me anymore.

Incidently, my opinion wouldn't change on this even our ability to sustain life outside the womb significant dropped significantly below this development cut-off point. Most fertislied eggs (and that itself is a bit of a misnomer as by the time they reach the uturus they are blobs of dozens of cells) never attach to the uturus and get flushed out. If we hold that those little blobs are just as soul-containing and human as we are, then we'd really have to do something about this natural genocide and the obvious solution would be to have women collect and hand in their menstruation on the chance there's a little blob of cells with a soul floating round in there waiting to be saved. Sure it may seem a little extreme, but think of all the lives we'd be saving - you're not pro-death are you?
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Postby Jebus » Wed May 06, 2009 4:44 pm

God puts souls in women's periods? Huh, I wonder what other weird things God puts souls into... maybe he even gives them to the French.

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Postby lyons24000 » Thu May 07, 2009 8:24 am

Jeesh_girl15 wrote:
Well, that's what I think as a 14-year-old kid. I know I'm young, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid


Acting as you just did, it made me have my doubts about that final statement. There are ways to make a point without insulting others. I know you feel strongly about this, as do I, but heaping insults at people will not make them see their error. Just because you and I know abortion is wrong does not mean we can act impetuous.

Here are a few Bible principles that bear on this matter:

"An answer, when mild, turns away rage, but a word causing pain makes anger to come up."-Proverbs 15:1

"Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt."-Colossians 4:6

"[Be] ready to make a defense before everyone that demands [it] of you...but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect."-1 Peter 3:15

You should never scream and yell when you feel someone else is in the wrong. It makes you seem ignorant and takes away credibility. People won't want to listen to you or take you seriously.
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Postby Jeesh_girl15 » Thu May 07, 2009 4:02 pm

lyons24000 wrote:I know you feel strongly about this, as do I, but heaping insults at people will not make them see their error. Just because you and I know abortion is wrong does not mean we can act impetuous.

Here are a few Bible principles that bear on this matter:

"An answer, when mild, turns away rage, but a word causing pain makes anger to come up."-Proverbs 15:1

"Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt."-Colossians 4:6

"[Be] ready to make a defense before everyone that demands [it] of you...but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect."-1 Peter 3:15

You should never scream and yell when you feel someone else is in the wrong. It makes you seem ignorant and takes away credibility. People won't want to listen to you or take you seriously.


Well, you are totally right, I did act out of place (as I always do). and I am really ignorant all the time (aren't we all at least a little?). But, i have to say that I am really good at heaping on the insults. Ask just about anyone. I should be a critic when i grow up! I get it from my daddy. You should hear him talk about Obama.

I think I already knew the bible said that in the back of my head. How did you know the exact verse word for word? I bet it's one of the ones as my teacher says ,"Hide it in your heart. You'll need it someday." It's not like I can remember much more than "John 3:16." I suck at memorizing.

Thanks I guess. I think I just learned a serious moral lesson from someone i don't even know.
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Postby ^Peter » Thu May 07, 2009 7:21 pm

Wow. It's hot on this thread. But I guess, if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen, neh? :)

I voted pro-life (ahh! don't hit me!), but I also know there're a lot of circumstances where pro-choice is the better answer. My point is, while pro-choice can be a good thing, I know that there are many who would take advantage of abortion. I'm talking about people who do anyone and everyone with no control, people who are irresponsible and neglegent, not those who would use abortion for a good purpose...

but then... what is a good purpose, and what is a bad one... hmm...

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Postby Eskarina » Fri May 08, 2009 8:48 am

I have voted pro-choice.

All I'm hearing about is stories of women who took abortion way tooo lightly and with a form of understanding like it were a contra-ceptive. Understanding and/or using it such is of course out of place. And of course there must be a fine number of people with such stances, somewhere.

But then on, I go and meet some of the fleshed women instead of those story ones, and what I see is psychological trauma of some kind, because the thing they resorted to still isn't something they would do were the circumstances different.

They just wouldn't 'take it back', because it was the way they got to the point where they're now, their back-then complicated situation would have no clear cuts. It's their own fight in the end, not of those that criticise them or their choice.

Btw., for abortion- because I think there should be a way to protect the health of a woman undergoing it, and if abortions either are or become illegal, there isn't really much space for health safe environment. I'd not like women dying out of badly performed surgeries, of infection, and the like. The procedure is damaging enough as it is, I don't think it should be even more damaging or, sadly, lethal.

I think there's a major difference between 'right' and 'needed'. I'd like people have option to do things that are 'needed', even if they are not completely 'right'.

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Postby Jeesh_girl15 » Fri May 08, 2009 5:50 pm

^Peter wrote:Wow. It's hot on this thread. But I guess, if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen, neh? :)

I voted pro-life (ahh! don't hit me!)


What a weird cowinky dink. The office in my house comes right off of the kitchen.

Anyway, I wouldn't dream of hitting you. As everyone who actually read my posts know, I am totally pro-life.
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Postby ^Peter » Fri May 08, 2009 9:05 pm

sigh... of course I read your posts. I make an effort to read all of them to make sure I don't sound redundant by repeating points already said.

Eskarina, I see what you're saying. By making abortion legal, you make sure that all abortions (or most at least) are done safely and by professionals. Or am I totally off? :?

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Postby Eskarina » Sat May 09, 2009 4:24 am

^Peter, you're right on the spot.

My reasoning behind this may be coming from my experience of living in a country where abortions are legal [quite luckily] as opposed to being in close proximity to Poland where they're banned, and hearing the comparisons with said country quite often. I've pondered about this for a while and just think it's a safer way.

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Postby Jeesh_girl15 » Sat May 09, 2009 3:17 pm

^Peter wrote:sigh... of course I read your posts. I make an effort to read all of them to make sure I don't sound redundant by repeating points already said.


Ya know, now it sounds as if you actually care what people who you don't even know think. I can't believe you tried to read all my posts. I wasn't actually serious about that. You just had to scroll up the page.
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Postby ^Peter » Sat May 09, 2009 5:56 pm

eww... you make me sound like a stalker. I meant to say I read ALL posts. Everyone makes good points. Who knew an Ender Forum could be so educating?

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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:30 pm

Pro- Life

If a parent doesn't want a child, she should put the child up for adoption, or at least in an orphanage. What if YOUR parents decided that you would just be draining their money for 18 years and killed you? HMM? Would all you pro-choice ists be that way if you had been killed before you were even BORN?! well, you would obviously be dead, but just put yourself in the place of all those people who never got a shot at ANY kind of life just because their parents decided they would be a problem. If you think babies are a problem, refer to Johnathan Swift's A Modest proposal In it he discusses how, instead of getting abortions, people should just sell their babies as food and get money from it. Oh? That would be immoral? Unethical? Sick and disgusting? Really?! well maybe you should take a good, hard look at your own beliefs.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:43 pm

Crazy Tom: C Toon wrote:What if YOUR parents decided that you would just be draining their money for 18 years and killed you?


Ignoring the tone you're using, you already said it but it bears repeating: I wouldn't be alive to feel much about it either way. Just like the eggs my body disposes once a month aren't causing me to be all emo over lost potential; the fact that they're unfertilized does not make much difference to me at this point.

put yourself in the place of all those people who never got a shot at ANY kind of life just because their parents decided they would be a problem


I don't feel sorry for them. It's a literal case of them not knowing what they're missing. While they're not "enjoying" life, they're also not suffering from not being alive.


I don't much feel like arguing, though, so respond if you'd like but I'll be over here, entirely content with my own Pro-Choice belief that allows women to abort or give the child up for adoption or keep it. They have, ya know, a choice. And that is all this is about to me anyway: even if I could never personally abort a child (not sure on that but I've never been pregnant), I don't think it's fair of me to insist all the women of the world, in all their different circumstances, do what I would personally do. Especially given even one woman will likely not get pregnant under the same circumstances every time.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:01 pm

I strongly encourage you to read Johnathan Swift's A Modest Proposal, then tell me what you think.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:05 pm

I read it in high school. It was brilliant satire. But, as I said before, I'm not interested in arguing or even doing any discussion beyond what I've said. I won't change your mind -don't have any interest in trying- and you certainly won't change mine. Good day. :)
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:14 pm

huh... well good day then. One bright side of all the Liberals being pro-abortion is that it cuts down on the numbers who would potentially believe the same.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:23 pm

Crazy Tom: C Toon wrote:One bright side of all the Liberals being pro-abortion is that it cuts down on the numbers who would potentially believe the same.


This right here is why I refuse to discuss things with people like you; yes, people like you. The tone you started with before I posted a thing suggested you were incapable of entering into a discussion on this with an open mind and an intention of walking away with a better understanding of the other side's POV. That sort of attack on an entire population of people is uncalled for. And people aren't "pro-abortion."

Slightly edited:
Pro-Choice = belief that women can abort or give the child up for adoption or keep it.


[ETA: Choice To help with your comprehension.]

What you said is a fallacy used by the ignorant to comfort themselves with their sense of righteousness.

One bright side of keeping an open mind is knowing that not all Pro-Lifers/Conservatives are like you.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:33 pm

Why did you take offense? all those murdered babies NEVER EXISTED right? So what could be offensive in that to you? Im not, after all, insulting PEOPLE, im insulting the embryos which you so casually kill, which aren't, by your definition, people.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:34 pm

... and I dont hate you or any pro-choicers. I hate the casuall sin that you are so unconcerned about.
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Postby Gravity Defier » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:40 pm

Actually, the insult was to the "Liberals" who are alive. "Pro-abortion" is somewhat loaded; you're calling them murderers (unjustifiably so, IMO, but you know this), which is certainly an insult in my books. You really oughtn't fling that word around so casually.

And who needs hate when you can ooze condescension?




Yes, yes, I have an issue walking away from inane statements but I'm doing it now.

ETA scare quotes around the word Liberals. Love how it sounds like a dirty word coming from you.
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Postby Sonikku13 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:49 pm

My $0.02 on the issue - I don't think abortion should be legal. In my opinion, well, life begins when the egg is fertilized. Ok, miscarriages are legal, but not intentional abortion in my opinion. My main reason for this are two documents. First, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), which clearly states every human has the right to life. "Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life." Article 6.1. In the Declaration of Independence, it is said you have inalienable rights, and among them is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, as taken from the Preamble. By taking away a fertilized baby's life by intentional abortion, you deprive the baby of their life, and although an unborn baby can't make a decision, you took away their liberty and freedom by deciding to abort them. They would also never be able to pursue happiness - the last moment that they'd know is being sucked out of a womb forcibly, and although I don't know how the baby would react, my best guess would be a lot of pain and insured death. I'd presume it isn't a happy feeling. Anyway, thats my thoughts on the issue, and it's mostly my thoughts of elective abortions - ones other than a mother's health or fetal disease.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:03 pm

thank you sonikku.

I agree that in the case where a mother might die if the baby is born, abortion is a viable option. but like sonikku said: a right to the pursuit of happiness. not to mention life.
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Postby jotabe » Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:32 am

How can you kill that which has no life?

Its cells are alive, yeah. He has its own dna, but that's what a human being is? a chain of dna?
It's a human being in-construction. Same as a building isn't yet a building while youare building it, a phoetus isn't a human, the mother is constructing it. There is no brain, no thought, no synapsis in the first months. There is no human life at all in there. While the brain isn't working, there is no life there to be killed.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:30 am

jotabe wrote:Its cells are alive, yeah. He has its own dna, but that's what a human being is? a chain of dna?


yes, exactly. I get the whole argument of, "well this potential person doesn't know what he's missing out on, so it's OK, " but I think it is our moral responsibility to allow every unconceived embryo a chance at life. If the mom can't handle it, put it up for adoption.

Incedentally, for all you pro-choicers out there who voted Democrat in this last election: Obama is FOR partial birth abortion, i.e. he is perfectly fine with killing the baby right after it's born. How's that for sick and unethical?
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Postby jotabe » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:32 am

Well, first, partial birth abortion is not an abortion method. Not in the way "i don't want to have a baby, i will get an abortion". As far as i know, it's a method for a therapeutical abortion where the birthing baby has no chance to survive the birth and/or there is severe risk for the mother's health.

Well, i have a higher concept of human beings than existing simply to satisfy our dna, the selfish gene. We are a lot more than machinery to reproduce our dna, even if that's how we came to be. What makes us human is our thought, our ability to be aware of our environment and of ourselves. The divine spark, so to speak, that lights up the synapsis of our outer cortex.
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Postby Crazy Tom: C Toon » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:39 pm

so are you classifying autistics as non-humans?
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