Debate Thread Reloaded: Mano-a-Mano (Kucinich Edition)
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:23 pm
Okay, this thread is intended as a continuation of a debate between myself (aka cowpoodle003) and hive_king (aka themakeouthobo). I thought it might be interesting to let you all see it and maybe add in some comments, but the main point of this is for me and Nick to keep the discussion going. (Think of Peter and Val's debates in the shadow series. People would jump in, but they'd be more or less ignored. That's what I'm aiming for ) I'm just gonna post the chat transcript here and we can go from there.
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:06:41]: i dig obama
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:06:45]: but Kucinich is my fave
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:06:52]: and he's picking up
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:06:58]: in the pools
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:07:01]: polls*
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:07:02]: w00t!
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:07:12]: I dunno, some of his ideas are a bit "what the f*** have you been smoking"
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:07:26]: he's not a scared politician
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:07:37]: he's not going to win because he's capable of doing the job well
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:07:42]: it's a basic law of politics
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:08:08]: whoever is capable of winning an election is fundamentally wrong for the job
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:08:31]: I disagree, some people have done great jobs
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:08:44]: like....
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:08:58]: his problem is that he has ideas like the "department of peace" and his blanket bans on handguns
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:09:05]: or reinstating the fairness doctrine
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:09:21]: i like those ideas
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:09:28]: they agree with my vision of America
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:09:50]: how is reinstating the fairness doctrine, in the modern age, excusable
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:10:00]: or banning all handguns even feasable
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:10:12]: and the department of peace? We have it, it's called the state department
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:10:17]: feasability doesn't have much to do with it
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:10:20]: and are you kidding?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:10:55]: the state department is more of a tool to enforce America's will
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:11:12]: erm, isn't every facet of government?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:11:29]: yea
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:11:48]: but as it's being used currently, that will is not what the aim of a department of peace would be
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:12:13]: sure, call it the state department
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:12:23]: but the point i like that kucinich is making
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:12:30]: ?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:12:36]: is that we have to have a part of the government devoted to promoting peace
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:12:46]: the state department has it's finger in many pies
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:12:58]: economics as much as anything
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:13:00]: so you don't think feasability matters?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:16]: i think that his ideas are sound
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:18]: they are good
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:24]: and they are feasable
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:13:25]: no they're not
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:13:29]: let's take the handgun ban
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:34]: ...in the world where kucinich is elected
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:42]: if he can get himself elected
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:45]: his ideas would work
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:51]: do you understand?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:13:53]: yes, but sadly, under the constitution, fairies and leprachauns can't vote
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:14:00]: *snort*
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:14:04]: maybe in a perfect world, but we don't live in one
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:14:08]: i mean, take the handgun ban
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:14:23]: take the assault weapon ban
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:14:25]: it's there
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:14:28]: it's not perfect
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:14:30]: first of all, its constitutionality is questionable
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:14:40]: but people are very rarely shot with assault rifles
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:14:54]: people were very rarely shot with assault rifles before the ban
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:15:34]: and the only people who are going to respect the ban are the people who wouldn't use them for wrong purposes anyways
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:15:45]: I mean, drugs are illegal, but give me half an hour and I can get a pound of crack
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:15:52]: what about all the people who are killed accidentally with handguns?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:16:02]: people aren't killed accidentally with assault rifles
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:16:04]: we promote putting more safeguards on them
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:16:31]: as to the constitutionality, you have to remember the FIRST phrase of the second amendment: "A well regulated militia..."
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:17:09]: and the last line is "the right to bear arms will not be abridged"
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:17:18]: no
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:17:34]: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:17:54]: whatever, I don't have it in front of me, you know what I mean
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:17:59]: the problem that hasn't really been tested
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:18:07]: is that there is a contradiction in here
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:18:25]: the first phrase says "well regulated" and the third prevents infringement
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:18:37]: there needs to be some sort of compromise between the two
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:18:49]: a blanket handgun ban is not that
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:18:56]: but we don't know
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:19:05]: it's up to the courts
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:19:15]: what was meant
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:19:27]: it doesn't sound like a compromise, since that would mean no one could own a gun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:20:11]: well, a handgun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:20:41]: and given the strict constructionists in the supreme court right now, i think they might give creedence to the "what they meant, not what they said" argument
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:20:52]: and that is up for debate
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:21:03]: but it's not a public matter
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:21:06]: it's a court matter
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:21:06]: sure it is
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:21:19]: besides, criminals will still have th em
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:21:22]: it's a solely constitutional issue
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:21:29]: so
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:21:36]: makes it easier to pick out the criminals
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:21:56]: yes, because they will be walking boldly down the street, handguns in holsters
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:22:07]: oh, i'm sure some will
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:22:15]: yeah, bullshit
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:22:20]: oh come on
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:22:26]: some protest group's gonna do it
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:22:34]: and they're gonna be criminals
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:23:44]: for the purposes of the discussion, people who become criminals because of the law don't really apply. The law is to dissuade violent criminals, like murderers and muggers
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:24:06]: okay
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:24:15]: i'll accept that
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:24:33]: but you still have to admit that the number of handugun deaths would go down with a blanket ban in effect
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:24:43]: without really hurting anybody
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:25:00]: do the ends justify the means, young mills?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:25:17]: well, it depends how bad the means are
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:25:27]: and what about home protection? what do i defend my home with, a musket?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:25:41]: not with a gun, that's for sure
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:25:56]: owning a gun to protect your home INCREASES your risk of getting shot
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:26:14]: so claiming that owning a gun is necessary to protect your home is BULLSHIT
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:26:35]: yes, lets imagine
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:26:35]: mean mr. robber breaks in, and he is armed.
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:26:42]: I charge at him with my hockey stick
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:26:45]: i get shot
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:27:02]: more likely, mr robber comes in with a hockey stick
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:27:06]: you have your gun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:27:13]: and you end up getting shot
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:27:17]: it's a more likely event
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:27:19]: how, pray tell?\
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:28:40]: okay, you, a little unsure of your willingness to shoot somebody (because you're a good citizen, and, in the situation, at an extreme disadvantage (maybe it's your wife / kid!?)) hesitate, giving the robber a chance to grab at the gun. there's a tussle and you get shot
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:28:49]: i don't have hard numbers
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:29:14]: but supposedly the average gun owner is more likely than the average non-gun-owner to get shot during a home invasion
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:29:16]: it's that simple
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:29:29]: yeah, that sounds fishy to me
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:29:40]: or, more likely, the robber isn't stupid or suicidal enough to charge a man with a gun (this isn't the movies) and gets the f*** out of dodge
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:03]: well, all i can tell you is that i've heard this many times
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:10]: and it makes a certain sense
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:21]: most people breaking into homes don't carry guns
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:27]: and so having a gun in the home
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:39]: increases the likelihood of somebody getting shot
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:48]: it's simple probability
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:31:12]: yes, but it also seems a loaded gun will convince a robber to leave very quickly
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:31:25]: it can
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:31:30]: but it can also shoot you
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:31:36]: are you willing to take the risk?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:31:37]: maybe
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:31:46]: but it's still not a good choice when you look at the numbers
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:32:04]: ok, some physics. I have a gun pointed away from me. a gun has to be pointed at me to kill me. that is a 180 degree arc. not very likely
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:32:23]: ever been in a really charged tussle?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:32:30]: who knows where that thing will be pointing
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:32:46]: would you get in a tussle with a guy with a gun?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:03]: depends on the situation
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:11]: but if somebody's got a gun on me
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:20]: i don't think they're gonna just let me waltz away
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:33:25]: have you ever had a loaded gun pointed at you?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:29]: or i wouldn't trust them to let me
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:31]: no
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:33:40]: now I'm speaking from experience here when I say you're going to do whatever they want
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:51]: i'm sorry, but it's math
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:53]: simple math
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:05]: no gun in the situation, your chance of getting shot is essentially zero
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:16]: if there's an armed and loaded gun in the situation
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:21]: your chance of getting shot is higher
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:26]: no matter what
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:30]: it's higher
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:34:33]: I'm sure you're much more likely to shoot the robber than yourself
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:36]: you can't argue with that
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:38]: still
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:47]: it's actually safer to not own a gun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:51]: if you don't want to get shot
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:34:57]: but the chance is still so infintestimally low that it won't matter
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:35:04]: i wouldn't be so sure
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:35:06]: .5% doesn't really come into account
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:35:16]: yeah it does
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:35:21]: when you have millions of gun owners
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:35:29]: .5 percent of 50 million...
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:35:44]: besides, personal responsibility. i choose the responsibility of owning a gun. that is my choice
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:35:48]: i take the risk
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:35:57]: just like people take the risk of driving drunk
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:05]: they might be informed
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:08]: and make a decision
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:13]: but that doesn't mean the law can't stop them
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:36:17]: apples and oranges. when you're drunk, your thinking IS impared
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:31]: okay
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:36:33]: most people who drive drunk wouldn't make that same decision sober
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:37]: people take the risk of driving too fast
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:41]: how about that?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:51]: very similar risks to drunk driving
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:53]: most people know that
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:36:56]: so are you going to mandate cars can't go over 70?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:37:06]: we already do
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:37:12]: sorry
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:37:19]: but you can't make that argument
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:37:28]: no we don't. cars can mechanically go over the speed limit
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:37:35]: yeah
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:37:41]: and guns can shoot cops
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:37:55]: yes I can. I mean mechanically, not speed limit wise
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:37:55]: i can make this argument
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:37:55]: and if you're gonig to shoot a cop, you're not going to obey a gun ban
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:37:59]: I've been mugged at gun point. Now imagine guns were outlawed. Do you really think that the mugger wouldn't have had that gun?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:38:30]: well, speed limits and banning guns are just as analagous as mechanically limiting vehicle speed and preventing guns from shooting good people
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:38:42]: wait, what?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:38:44]: yeah
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:38:45]: back up the logic train
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:38:47]: huh?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:38:49]: okay
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:38:50]: english, my friend
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:38:58]: i see "soft" limits
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:39:10]: to prevent things happening, make them illegal
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:39:14]: like speed limits
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:39:32]: or making it illegal to shoot people
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:39:38]: then there are hard limits
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:39:49]: like mechanically limiting the speed of cars
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:40:00]: or mechanically making it impossible for guns to shoot people
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:40:05]: logical?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:40:18]: and hard limits on guns is impossible
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:40:36]: not so
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:40:52]: if all guns are mechanically unable to fire
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:40:56]: they can't shoot people
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:41:02]: then it wouldn't be a gun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:41:03]: sure, they can't do other things either
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:41:04]: it'd be a metal weight
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:41:26]: still
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:41:26]: a gun is something that shoots a bullet. a gun that doesn't fire isn't a gun
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:41:31]: no, not still
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:41:46]: would you be able to shoot people if no guns worked?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:41:47]: no
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:41:50]: so it's possible
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:06]: okay
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:09]: now i just realized
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:17]: that hard and soft limits are really the same
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:42:20]: no they're not
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:29]: "soft" limits are laws applied to the end user
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:42]: "hard" limits are laws applied to the manufacturer
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:44]: make sense?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:42:48]: and how are these laws going to keep criminals from having guns?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:42:50]: working guns
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:43:01]: okay
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:43:11]: as i see it, criminals with guns are 10000% more important than the occasional misfire
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:43:18]: a blanket handgun ban
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:43:26]: i'm glad you said that
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:43:33]: back to what i was saying
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:43:37]: a blanket handgun ban
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:43:46]: we have a blanket ban on heroine. I can get heroine easily if i know where to look
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:44:06]: yeah, but it's harder to get than if it were legal, lemme tell you
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:44:23]: the difficulties that making heroin illegal put on drug dealers
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:44:31]: would be the same as those on gun dealers
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:44:34]: it also increases crime across the board
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:44:34]: but less intense
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:44:53]: you just said we could ignore crime created by the new law
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:44:56]: look at how much crime was made during prohibition
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:45:26]: difference between crime created by people breaking the law in question, and circumventing the law in question causing more violent crime
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:45:32]: HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:23:44]: for the purposes of the discussion, people who become criminals because of the law don't really apply. The law is to dissuade violent criminals, like murderers and muggers
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:45:44]: which it would
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:46:04]: first off, it would be harder to distribute guns
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:46:10]: no, it would mean they could get more money by smuggling guns into the country, which would lead to other types of crime
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:46:14]: because of their size and lack of innate concealability
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:46:17]: like the drug trade does today
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:46:20]: heroin is much easier to conceal
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:46:29]: i can put a gun in my backpack, et viola
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:46:44]: yeah, but how are you gonna get them into the country?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:46:50]: smuggle them
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:46:58]: bribe a few people sneak 'em over, it isn't hard
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:47:03]: yeah, with drugs it's easier
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:47:06]: guns would be harder
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:47:11]: i didn't say impossible, but harder
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:47:18]: dude. we smuggle people into this country easily all the time
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:47:22]: we can handle a glock
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:47:31]: not to mention the bazillion guns already in the country
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:47:33]: in the end, you would make it hardeER for criminals to get guns
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:47:47]: not by much, and that means honest citizens couldn't defend themselves
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:01]: we already went over this
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:09]: statistically it's safer to not own a gun
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:48:16]: says you
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:29]: you can't argue with the facts
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:48:32]: you have facts?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:40]: that if there's a gun in the room, you're more likely to get shot
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:48:46]: by what percentage
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:49]: no idea
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:48:52]: there ya go
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:55]: but it
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:59]: 's still different
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:49:06]: if it's by .000001%, it's statistically insignifigant
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:49:13]: not really
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:49:29]: statistically, yes
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:49:34]: you can't argue with statistics
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:49:35]: one one hundred thousandth of a percent is one more dead person for every million home invasions
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:49:39]: and that's one too many
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:49:56]: oops. ten million
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:49:56]: you don't think people can be smart enough to use a gun? we're not a nanny state here
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:49:57]: but still
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:50:03]: no
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:50:09]: but all it takes is one person
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:50:27]: i think that if you could save one person's life by banning handguns it would be worth it
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:50:28]: people can die of cholesteral, do you want to ban fatty foods?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:50:32]: how about cheetos?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:50:45]: well, that's more slippery
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:50:52]: how many people die in car crashes, why don't we ban cars? all it'd take is one life saved
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:50:53]: because it isn't so hard-edged
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:05]: once again, it's a matter of balance
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:51:12]: all it takes is one person
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:12]: i don't see any upside to keeping guns legal
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:51:19]: i see plenty of them
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:21]: i see an upside to keeping cars
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:23]: like what?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:27]: protecting yourself?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:35]: that's a ridiculous reason
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:51:35]: buddy, i'm a civil war reenactor. they're a hobby for me
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:46]: but you don't believe in bullets
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:51:52]: hey, live firing is fun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:52]: at least for that
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:51:58]: and protection is not a ridiculous idea
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:52:05]: we've been over this
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:52:12]: more guns = more shootings
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:52:15]: plain and simple
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:52:29]: how many homeowners get shot vs. how many criminals
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:52:46]: imagine the guy wanted to rape my girlfriend. a gun would be handy then
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:52:47]: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 75-5279022
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:52:51]: we should both read this book
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:53:01]: i've seen links all around the web
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:53:06]: it looks good
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:53:13]: and you would read one on why we should keep handguns, i assume
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:53:17]: if you pay for it, i'll read it
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:53:27]: ditto on a pro-gun one
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:54:01]: and what about kucinich wanting to reinstate the fairness docterine
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:54:06]: okay
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:54:10]: i think it's a good idea
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:54:17]: go on
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:54:54]: when the founding fathers talked about free press
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:13]: one of the things they really stressed was the availibility of multiple viewpoints
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:21]: seeing all sides of the issue
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:24]: without which
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:55:24]: and they're out there
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:31]: voters would be unable to come to decisions
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:55:37]: you just have to look for them
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:41]: and the entire basis of democracy would come crashing down
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:52]: the problem with that is that continued deregulation of the medai
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:55:54]: in this age of modern media, internet, radio, you can find any viewpoint on any issue
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:56:17]: the press is in a way, not free
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:56:25]: because certain markets are saturated
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:56:31]: with content from a single company
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:56:48]: politically, people choose with their money and dials what to support
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:56:54]: not really
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:56:55]: if air america couldn't make it, oh well
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:57:00]: i'm sad, but it happens
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:57:12]: have you seen how much power news corp has in a lot of markets/
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:57:22]: yes
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:57:23]: in some places, it controls almost all of the media outlets
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:57:26]: so go online
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:57:31]: i read daily kos every day
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:57:39]: but people aren't necessarily informed
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:57:49]: but they could be if they wanted to be
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:07]: if one day murdoch told all his lackeys that he wanted every single outlet he owned to favor republicans, it could happen
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:16]: and a lot of people wouldn't notice
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:26]: i believe in freedom of the press
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:33]: so far as they're allowed to choose what to cover
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:39]: or what to publish
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:47]: but one-sidedness is bad
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:59:00]: and people can find the other outlet if they want
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:59:08]: should daily kos invite a rupublican publisher?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:59:47]: well, it's a matter of deciding what media the fairness doctrine applies to
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:59:54]: i don't think that it should apply to internet
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:06]: but something like radio or television
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:14]: which utilizes PUBLIC airwaves
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:17]: should serve the public
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:26]: by presenting a balanced view
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [11:00:29]: but the people have a right to be informed!!!
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:35]: exactly
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:37]: they do
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [11:00:43]: that shouldn't apply online
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [11:00:44]: ?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:46]: and that's why we allow media to use the airwaves
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [11:00:48]: sorry dude, gotta go
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:51]: okay
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:53]: ttyl
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:06:41]: i dig obama
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:06:45]: but Kucinich is my fave
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:06:52]: and he's picking up
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:06:58]: in the pools
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:07:01]: polls*
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:07:02]: w00t!
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:07:12]: I dunno, some of his ideas are a bit "what the f*** have you been smoking"
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:07:26]: he's not a scared politician
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:07:37]: he's not going to win because he's capable of doing the job well
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:07:42]: it's a basic law of politics
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:08:08]: whoever is capable of winning an election is fundamentally wrong for the job
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:08:31]: I disagree, some people have done great jobs
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:08:44]: like....
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:08:58]: his problem is that he has ideas like the "department of peace" and his blanket bans on handguns
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:09:05]: or reinstating the fairness doctrine
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:09:21]: i like those ideas
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:09:28]: they agree with my vision of America
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:09:50]: how is reinstating the fairness doctrine, in the modern age, excusable
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:10:00]: or banning all handguns even feasable
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:10:12]: and the department of peace? We have it, it's called the state department
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:10:17]: feasability doesn't have much to do with it
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:10:20]: and are you kidding?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:10:55]: the state department is more of a tool to enforce America's will
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:11:12]: erm, isn't every facet of government?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:11:29]: yea
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:11:48]: but as it's being used currently, that will is not what the aim of a department of peace would be
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:12:13]: sure, call it the state department
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:12:23]: but the point i like that kucinich is making
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:12:30]: ?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:12:36]: is that we have to have a part of the government devoted to promoting peace
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:12:46]: the state department has it's finger in many pies
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:12:58]: economics as much as anything
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:13:00]: so you don't think feasability matters?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:16]: i think that his ideas are sound
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:18]: they are good
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:24]: and they are feasable
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:13:25]: no they're not
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:13:29]: let's take the handgun ban
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:34]: ...in the world where kucinich is elected
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:42]: if he can get himself elected
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:45]: his ideas would work
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:13:51]: do you understand?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:13:53]: yes, but sadly, under the constitution, fairies and leprachauns can't vote
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:14:00]: *snort*
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:14:04]: maybe in a perfect world, but we don't live in one
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:14:08]: i mean, take the handgun ban
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:14:23]: take the assault weapon ban
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:14:25]: it's there
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:14:28]: it's not perfect
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:14:30]: first of all, its constitutionality is questionable
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:14:40]: but people are very rarely shot with assault rifles
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:14:54]: people were very rarely shot with assault rifles before the ban
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:15:34]: and the only people who are going to respect the ban are the people who wouldn't use them for wrong purposes anyways
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:15:45]: I mean, drugs are illegal, but give me half an hour and I can get a pound of crack
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:15:52]: what about all the people who are killed accidentally with handguns?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:16:02]: people aren't killed accidentally with assault rifles
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:16:04]: we promote putting more safeguards on them
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:16:31]: as to the constitutionality, you have to remember the FIRST phrase of the second amendment: "A well regulated militia..."
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:17:09]: and the last line is "the right to bear arms will not be abridged"
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:17:18]: no
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:17:34]: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:17:54]: whatever, I don't have it in front of me, you know what I mean
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:17:59]: the problem that hasn't really been tested
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:18:07]: is that there is a contradiction in here
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:18:25]: the first phrase says "well regulated" and the third prevents infringement
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:18:37]: there needs to be some sort of compromise between the two
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:18:49]: a blanket handgun ban is not that
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:18:56]: but we don't know
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:19:05]: it's up to the courts
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:19:15]: what was meant
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:19:27]: it doesn't sound like a compromise, since that would mean no one could own a gun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:20:11]: well, a handgun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:20:41]: and given the strict constructionists in the supreme court right now, i think they might give creedence to the "what they meant, not what they said" argument
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:20:52]: and that is up for debate
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:21:03]: but it's not a public matter
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:21:06]: it's a court matter
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:21:06]: sure it is
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:21:19]: besides, criminals will still have th em
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:21:22]: it's a solely constitutional issue
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:21:29]: so
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:21:36]: makes it easier to pick out the criminals
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:21:56]: yes, because they will be walking boldly down the street, handguns in holsters
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:22:07]: oh, i'm sure some will
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:22:15]: yeah, bullshit
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:22:20]: oh come on
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:22:26]: some protest group's gonna do it
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:22:34]: and they're gonna be criminals
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:23:44]: for the purposes of the discussion, people who become criminals because of the law don't really apply. The law is to dissuade violent criminals, like murderers and muggers
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:24:06]: okay
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:24:15]: i'll accept that
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:24:33]: but you still have to admit that the number of handugun deaths would go down with a blanket ban in effect
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:24:43]: without really hurting anybody
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:25:00]: do the ends justify the means, young mills?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:25:17]: well, it depends how bad the means are
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:25:27]: and what about home protection? what do i defend my home with, a musket?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:25:41]: not with a gun, that's for sure
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:25:56]: owning a gun to protect your home INCREASES your risk of getting shot
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:26:14]: so claiming that owning a gun is necessary to protect your home is BULLSHIT
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:26:35]: yes, lets imagine
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:26:35]: mean mr. robber breaks in, and he is armed.
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:26:42]: I charge at him with my hockey stick
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:26:45]: i get shot
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:27:02]: more likely, mr robber comes in with a hockey stick
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:27:06]: you have your gun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:27:13]: and you end up getting shot
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:27:17]: it's a more likely event
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:27:19]: how, pray tell?\
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:28:40]: okay, you, a little unsure of your willingness to shoot somebody (because you're a good citizen, and, in the situation, at an extreme disadvantage (maybe it's your wife / kid!?)) hesitate, giving the robber a chance to grab at the gun. there's a tussle and you get shot
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:28:49]: i don't have hard numbers
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:29:14]: but supposedly the average gun owner is more likely than the average non-gun-owner to get shot during a home invasion
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:29:16]: it's that simple
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:29:29]: yeah, that sounds fishy to me
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:29:40]: or, more likely, the robber isn't stupid or suicidal enough to charge a man with a gun (this isn't the movies) and gets the f*** out of dodge
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:03]: well, all i can tell you is that i've heard this many times
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:10]: and it makes a certain sense
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:21]: most people breaking into homes don't carry guns
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:27]: and so having a gun in the home
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:39]: increases the likelihood of somebody getting shot
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:30:48]: it's simple probability
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:31:12]: yes, but it also seems a loaded gun will convince a robber to leave very quickly
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:31:25]: it can
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:31:30]: but it can also shoot you
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:31:36]: are you willing to take the risk?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:31:37]: maybe
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:31:46]: but it's still not a good choice when you look at the numbers
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:32:04]: ok, some physics. I have a gun pointed away from me. a gun has to be pointed at me to kill me. that is a 180 degree arc. not very likely
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:32:23]: ever been in a really charged tussle?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:32:30]: who knows where that thing will be pointing
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:32:46]: would you get in a tussle with a guy with a gun?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:03]: depends on the situation
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:11]: but if somebody's got a gun on me
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:20]: i don't think they're gonna just let me waltz away
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:33:25]: have you ever had a loaded gun pointed at you?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:29]: or i wouldn't trust them to let me
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:31]: no
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:33:40]: now I'm speaking from experience here when I say you're going to do whatever they want
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:51]: i'm sorry, but it's math
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:33:53]: simple math
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:05]: no gun in the situation, your chance of getting shot is essentially zero
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:16]: if there's an armed and loaded gun in the situation
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:21]: your chance of getting shot is higher
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:26]: no matter what
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:30]: it's higher
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:34:33]: I'm sure you're much more likely to shoot the robber than yourself
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:36]: you can't argue with that
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:38]: still
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:47]: it's actually safer to not own a gun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:34:51]: if you don't want to get shot
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:34:57]: but the chance is still so infintestimally low that it won't matter
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:35:04]: i wouldn't be so sure
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:35:06]: .5% doesn't really come into account
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:35:16]: yeah it does
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:35:21]: when you have millions of gun owners
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:35:29]: .5 percent of 50 million...
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:35:44]: besides, personal responsibility. i choose the responsibility of owning a gun. that is my choice
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:35:48]: i take the risk
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:35:57]: just like people take the risk of driving drunk
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:05]: they might be informed
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:08]: and make a decision
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:13]: but that doesn't mean the law can't stop them
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:36:17]: apples and oranges. when you're drunk, your thinking IS impared
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:31]: okay
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:36:33]: most people who drive drunk wouldn't make that same decision sober
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:37]: people take the risk of driving too fast
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:41]: how about that?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:51]: very similar risks to drunk driving
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:36:53]: most people know that
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:36:56]: so are you going to mandate cars can't go over 70?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:37:06]: we already do
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:37:12]: sorry
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:37:19]: but you can't make that argument
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:37:28]: no we don't. cars can mechanically go over the speed limit
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:37:35]: yeah
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:37:41]: and guns can shoot cops
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:37:55]: yes I can. I mean mechanically, not speed limit wise
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:37:55]: i can make this argument
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:37:55]: and if you're gonig to shoot a cop, you're not going to obey a gun ban
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:37:59]: I've been mugged at gun point. Now imagine guns were outlawed. Do you really think that the mugger wouldn't have had that gun?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:38:30]: well, speed limits and banning guns are just as analagous as mechanically limiting vehicle speed and preventing guns from shooting good people
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:38:42]: wait, what?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:38:44]: yeah
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:38:45]: back up the logic train
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:38:47]: huh?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:38:49]: okay
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:38:50]: english, my friend
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:38:58]: i see "soft" limits
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:39:10]: to prevent things happening, make them illegal
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:39:14]: like speed limits
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:39:32]: or making it illegal to shoot people
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:39:38]: then there are hard limits
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:39:49]: like mechanically limiting the speed of cars
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:40:00]: or mechanically making it impossible for guns to shoot people
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:40:05]: logical?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:40:18]: and hard limits on guns is impossible
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:40:36]: not so
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:40:52]: if all guns are mechanically unable to fire
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:40:56]: they can't shoot people
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:41:02]: then it wouldn't be a gun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:41:03]: sure, they can't do other things either
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:41:04]: it'd be a metal weight
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:41:26]: still
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:41:26]: a gun is something that shoots a bullet. a gun that doesn't fire isn't a gun
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:41:31]: no, not still
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:41:46]: would you be able to shoot people if no guns worked?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:41:47]: no
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:41:50]: so it's possible
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:06]: okay
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:09]: now i just realized
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:17]: that hard and soft limits are really the same
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:42:20]: no they're not
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:29]: "soft" limits are laws applied to the end user
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:42]: "hard" limits are laws applied to the manufacturer
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:42:44]: make sense?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:42:48]: and how are these laws going to keep criminals from having guns?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:42:50]: working guns
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:43:01]: okay
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:43:11]: as i see it, criminals with guns are 10000% more important than the occasional misfire
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:43:18]: a blanket handgun ban
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:43:26]: i'm glad you said that
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:43:33]: back to what i was saying
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:43:37]: a blanket handgun ban
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:43:46]: we have a blanket ban on heroine. I can get heroine easily if i know where to look
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:44:06]: yeah, but it's harder to get than if it were legal, lemme tell you
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:44:23]: the difficulties that making heroin illegal put on drug dealers
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:44:31]: would be the same as those on gun dealers
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:44:34]: it also increases crime across the board
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:44:34]: but less intense
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:44:53]: you just said we could ignore crime created by the new law
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:44:56]: look at how much crime was made during prohibition
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:45:26]: difference between crime created by people breaking the law in question, and circumventing the law in question causing more violent crime
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:45:32]: HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:23:44]: for the purposes of the discussion, people who become criminals because of the law don't really apply. The law is to dissuade violent criminals, like murderers and muggers
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:45:44]: which it would
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:46:04]: first off, it would be harder to distribute guns
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:46:10]: no, it would mean they could get more money by smuggling guns into the country, which would lead to other types of crime
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:46:14]: because of their size and lack of innate concealability
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:46:17]: like the drug trade does today
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:46:20]: heroin is much easier to conceal
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:46:29]: i can put a gun in my backpack, et viola
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:46:44]: yeah, but how are you gonna get them into the country?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:46:50]: smuggle them
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:46:58]: bribe a few people sneak 'em over, it isn't hard
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:47:03]: yeah, with drugs it's easier
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:47:06]: guns would be harder
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:47:11]: i didn't say impossible, but harder
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:47:18]: dude. we smuggle people into this country easily all the time
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:47:22]: we can handle a glock
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:47:31]: not to mention the bazillion guns already in the country
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:47:33]: in the end, you would make it hardeER for criminals to get guns
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:47:47]: not by much, and that means honest citizens couldn't defend themselves
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:01]: we already went over this
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:09]: statistically it's safer to not own a gun
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:48:16]: says you
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:29]: you can't argue with the facts
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:48:32]: you have facts?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:40]: that if there's a gun in the room, you're more likely to get shot
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:48:46]: by what percentage
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:49]: no idea
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:48:52]: there ya go
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:55]: but it
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:48:59]: 's still different
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:49:06]: if it's by .000001%, it's statistically insignifigant
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:49:13]: not really
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:49:29]: statistically, yes
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:49:34]: you can't argue with statistics
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:49:35]: one one hundred thousandth of a percent is one more dead person for every million home invasions
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:49:39]: and that's one too many
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:49:56]: oops. ten million
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:49:56]: you don't think people can be smart enough to use a gun? we're not a nanny state here
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:49:57]: but still
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:50:03]: no
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:50:09]: but all it takes is one person
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:50:27]: i think that if you could save one person's life by banning handguns it would be worth it
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:50:28]: people can die of cholesteral, do you want to ban fatty foods?
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:50:32]: how about cheetos?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:50:45]: well, that's more slippery
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:50:52]: how many people die in car crashes, why don't we ban cars? all it'd take is one life saved
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:50:53]: because it isn't so hard-edged
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:05]: once again, it's a matter of balance
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:51:12]: all it takes is one person
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:12]: i don't see any upside to keeping guns legal
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:51:19]: i see plenty of them
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:21]: i see an upside to keeping cars
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:23]: like what?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:27]: protecting yourself?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:35]: that's a ridiculous reason
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:51:35]: buddy, i'm a civil war reenactor. they're a hobby for me
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:46]: but you don't believe in bullets
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:51:52]: hey, live firing is fun
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:51:52]: at least for that
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:51:58]: and protection is not a ridiculous idea
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:52:05]: we've been over this
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:52:12]: more guns = more shootings
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:52:15]: plain and simple
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:52:29]: how many homeowners get shot vs. how many criminals
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:52:46]: imagine the guy wanted to rape my girlfriend. a gun would be handy then
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:52:47]: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 75-5279022
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:52:51]: we should both read this book
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:53:01]: i've seen links all around the web
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:53:06]: it looks good
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:53:13]: and you would read one on why we should keep handguns, i assume
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:53:17]: if you pay for it, i'll read it
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:53:27]: ditto on a pro-gun one
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:54:01]: and what about kucinich wanting to reinstate the fairness docterine
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:54:06]: okay
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:54:10]: i think it's a good idea
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:54:17]: go on
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:54:54]: when the founding fathers talked about free press
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:13]: one of the things they really stressed was the availibility of multiple viewpoints
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:21]: seeing all sides of the issue
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:24]: without which
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:55:24]: and they're out there
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:31]: voters would be unable to come to decisions
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:55:37]: you just have to look for them
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:41]: and the entire basis of democracy would come crashing down
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:55:52]: the problem with that is that continued deregulation of the medai
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:55:54]: in this age of modern media, internet, radio, you can find any viewpoint on any issue
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:56:17]: the press is in a way, not free
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:56:25]: because certain markets are saturated
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:56:31]: with content from a single company
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:56:48]: politically, people choose with their money and dials what to support
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:56:54]: not really
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:56:55]: if air america couldn't make it, oh well
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:57:00]: i'm sad, but it happens
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:57:12]: have you seen how much power news corp has in a lot of markets/
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:57:22]: yes
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:57:23]: in some places, it controls almost all of the media outlets
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:57:26]: so go online
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:57:31]: i read daily kos every day
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:57:39]: but people aren't necessarily informed
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:57:49]: but they could be if they wanted to be
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:07]: if one day murdoch told all his lackeys that he wanted every single outlet he owned to favor republicans, it could happen
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:16]: and a lot of people wouldn't notice
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:26]: i believe in freedom of the press
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:33]: so far as they're allowed to choose what to cover
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:39]: or what to publish
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:58:47]: but one-sidedness is bad
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:59:00]: and people can find the other outlet if they want
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [10:59:08]: should daily kos invite a rupublican publisher?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:59:47]: well, it's a matter of deciding what media the fairness doctrine applies to
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [10:59:54]: i don't think that it should apply to internet
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:06]: but something like radio or television
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:14]: which utilizes PUBLIC airwaves
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:17]: should serve the public
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:26]: by presenting a balanced view
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [11:00:29]: but the people have a right to be informed!!!
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:35]: exactly
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:37]: they do
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [11:00:43]: that shouldn't apply online
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [11:00:44]: ?
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:46]: and that's why we allow media to use the airwaves
HoboNick (themakeouthobo) [11:00:48]: sorry dude, gotta go
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:51]: okay
Seth Just (cowpoodle003) [11:00:53]: ttyl