I don't believe in Atheists

[neo-dragon]

Okay then, maybe those souls who aren't able to enter the presence of God and thereby be protected from Hell are snatched up by Satan and taken to the Lake of Fire. How's that?

[Jebus]

Why doesn't God stop Satan from doing that? Surely God's power to save you isn't dependant on your belief in Him. He's all powerful.

[neo-dragon]

Now we're getting into questions that are difficult to even speculate on. I know the whole, "I'm only human and can't define the powers of God" line sounds like a cop-out, but it happens to be true. What I believe is that if God has any limitation of his powers and authority it's with regards to our free will. He either can't, or chooses not to make choices for us, since he didn't make us to be simply his puppets. For all I know, once a person rejects God he can't intervene on their behalf. Maybe Satan gets dibs on souls that have already rejected God's protection. I'm pretty sure that many Christians believe that every single soul gets to make a conscious decision to accept God or not, if not in this life then after we die, so it's not like if you drop dead tomorrow having not made up your mind you're screwed. I don't know. I really wish that I could give you more than half-assed speculation, but Lord knows that I'm no religious authority.

[Jayelle]

Okay then, maybe those souls who aren't able to enter the presence of God and thereby be protected from Hell are snatched up by Satan and taken to the Lake of Fire. How's that?

It's important to realize that the concept of a "soul" is Greek and does not come from nor exist in the bible.

[neo-dragon]

Really? I don't know where or when the concept originated, but I'm certain that the Bible has MANY references to the immortal soul/spirit.

[Jayelle]

Find them.

[hive_king]

I want someone to explain to me why a finite transgression (not being able to believe that there might be some super being out there with total control over near everything) warrents infinate punishment (hell for all eternity).

Also, if God wants us to believe so badly, why doesn't he make it easier, like coming down from the heavens and showing himself to everyone. If God were to come up and slap you, or even shake your hand, I'm pretty sure you'd believe in him then, and thus he'd truly be doing everything to save you from hell. Anything less, and he isn't trying his hardest.

For all I know, once a person rejects God he can't intervene on their behalf.

Nope. Think "road to damascus".

[Dr. Mobius]

I'm agnostic simply because I don't care enough one way or the other. If god(s) exists, great; if not, oh well. There's too much to experience in life to waste time worrying about what's going to happen afterwards.

That’s misusing the term “agnostic”. You place yourself outside religion. That’s a lot “closer” to atheism.

Whatever. I do believe in the possibility of higher forms of intelligence in the universe. I just highly doubt any of them have taken a special interest in our planet.

I doubt I would cleanly fit into either atheism or agnosticism. I inhabit the grey area between the two.

[neo-dragon]

In response to Jayelle...

Just from a quick online search of the New Testament:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:27-29

What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
Matthew 16:25-27

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:22-24

Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.
1 Peter 2:10-12

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:3-5

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Romans 8:9-11

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James 2:25-26

Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Micah 6:6-8

Also, if God wants us to believe so badly, why doesn't he make it easier, like coming down from the heavens and showing himself to everyone. If God were to come up and slap you, or even shake your hand, I'm pretty sure you'd believe in him then, and thus he'd truly be doing everything to save you from hell. Anything less, and he isn't trying his hardest.

Maybe we gain something through faith. Maybe humankind loses something if we know God is there to bail us out. Maybe he's given us, and continues to give us, all we need to accept him, and in order to be worth anything we have to get there on our own. Returning to my teacher-student analogy, what does the student gain from the class if the teacher writes the exams for him? The teacher wants the student to pass, but he can't give him the answers to the test or else the student doesn't learn or gain anything from the experience. Can the teacher who doesn't hand out an answer key to the test the day before be accused of not doing everything in his power to prevent his students from failing?

[Jayelle]

translation issues.
The concept of a soul as a "separate floaty thing" that "goes up to heaven" or "down to hell" is not what those verses are talking about. The Jewish concept of Souls is not the same as the Greek (think Plato).

Finding the word "soul" is different from the jewish/christian concept of what happens to you after you die.

[neo-dragon]

I thought that you might say something like that, but I personally feel that at least some of those verses suggest that the soul is what goes to Heaven/Hell when the body dies.

For instance (to shorten the list a bit):

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Romans 8:9-11

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James 2:25-26

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:3-5

It's a matter of interpretation, I suppose. Just like everything else in the Bible. Just as a disclaimer, I strongly discourage anyone in this thread from thinking that my interpretations and opinions necessarily reflect those of any particular Church. What's more, I have very little formal religious or philosophical education.

[Jayelle]

No, it's not a "matter of interpretation", it's a matter of history. Philisophically, the Greeks are who came up with the concept of "soul". That was after the Old Testament.

[neo-dragon]

Actually, all of those quotes are from the New Testament, if that makes any difference...

[Jebus]

Now we're getting into questions that are difficult to even speculate on. I know the whole, "I'm only human and can't define the powers of God" line sounds like a cop-out, but it happens to be true. What I believe is that if God has any limitation of his powers and authority it's with regards to our free will. He either can't, or chooses not to make choices for us, since he didn't make us to be simply his puppets. For all I know, once a person rejects God he can't intervene on their behalf. Maybe Satan gets dibs on souls that have already rejected God's protection. I'm pretty sure that many Christians believe that every single soul gets to make a conscious decision to accept God or not, if not in this life then after we die, so it's not like if you drop dead tomorrow having not made up your mind you're screwed. I don't know. I really wish that I could give you more than half-assed speculation, but Lord knows that I'm no religious authority.

Ok, let's get things straight for a second. Any rules in either this world or a celestial world are created by God right? He created the heaven and the earth, correct? So there's no, well Satan does this and God can't do that. If there's an omnipotent deity, then everything that ever happens is either because he wants it to happen or doesn't care that it happens.

But maybe you don't believe that God is all powerful.

[neo-dragon]

I thought that I already expressed my view on the one and only restriction on God's power, and that's probably a self-imposed one.

[Jebus]

Well I think the distinction of whether allowing free-will is self-imposed or a limit to His powers is kind of a big one, so I was just looking for clarification on what you thought.

[hive_king]

Maybe we gain something through faith. Maybe humankind loses something if we know God is there to bail us out

Any idea at all what we gain through faith? Any idea what we lose if God is there to bail us out? Or are you just talking out the other end?

Returning to my teacher-student analogy, what does the student gain from the class if the teacher writes the exams for him? The teacher wants the student to pass, but he can't give him the answers to the test or else the student doesn't learn or gain anything from the experience. Can the teacher who doesn't hand out an answer key to the test the day before be accused of not doing everything in his power to prevent his students from failing?

But, according to the bible, God did just that for Paul on the road to Damascus. That kinda nulls your argument. And how is having faith/not having faith like a test?

[neo-dragon]

For all intents and purposes I really am talking out of my ass. How can I be doing otherwise? It's not like I have regular Q & A sessions with God. And for that matter I'm not making an argument, I'm offering speculation. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just presenting possibilities. How is having faith/not having faith like a test? I guess God tells us what we need to do to pass, but doesn't give us the answers. What do we lose if God is there to bail us out? I'd guess the same thing that we lose as we grow into adulthood if we never learn to stop expecting our parents to do everything for us. What about Paul? That's a tough one. I think that maybe at some point in the past God had to interact with mankind more overtly, much like a parent has to be a bit more heavy-hand with rules pertaining to a young child rather than an adolescent. We couldn't be expected to have faith in the future if God hadn't made himself known in the past. Again, I really am talking out of my ass.

[suminonA]

The student who refuses to study or do the work won't graduate and leave school. It's not the teacher's choice, it's the student's. One of my profs always used to say, "I don't fail any students, they fail themselves." Like most professors/teachers, he genuinely wanted us all to pass and did everything in his power to make it happen. But still, some students don't do their part. Their failure isn't really a punishment, it's just an unfortunate end result.

I “dropped out” of school a while ago. Let me tell you how it happened:
My teacher, X, told me through one of his assistants that there is only one true teacher, namely X. (I never managed to have a direct dialog with X)
Then I met a friend from across the street and he told me that he has another teacher, Y. I told him that he must be mistaken, because X was the only one true teacher and all others are therefore false ones. Yet my friend insisted that Y was the only one true teacher, because he has been told that about Y by one of Y’s assistants. (My friend didn’t talk to Y either). We wanted to solve the “quarrel” by arranging a meeting between the assistants and see which of them is right. Yet, they declined to talk to each other, so that was that.
Both of us had been given the exact same kind of reasons and evidence for what each assistants said was true, so in the end it was a choice: which of them to believe?
Of course, there was great risk at stake (the assistants said), because choosing wrong meant eternal damnation. And of course, only one of them could be right, at least they agreed on that. So, instead of choosing a “wrong” one, I’ve chosen not to believe any of them before more direct evidence was presented to me.

In this “educational” system, I think it would be more important that the teachers (and their assistants) agreed on the teachings they have to give, besides the “minor point” of which of the teachers is the unique true one.

Till then, I’m an autodidact.

A.

[neo-dragon]

Well in that case all you can do is attend different classes and see which teaching style works for you. Trust yourself to determine which teacher is better. In fact, a lot of the times I think that the teachers are teaching the same content even if their students insist that the minor difference are a big deal. So maybe the teacher doesn't matter as long as you learn the material. If neither works for you, well, then you've chosen neither... At least for the time being. Can you get a diploma through independent study without attending the classes of a particular teacher? I really don't know.

[suminonA]

Well in that case all you can do is attend different classes and see which teaching style works for you. Trust yourself to determine which teacher is better. In fact, a lot of the times I think that the teachers are teaching the same content even if their students insist that the minor difference are a big deal. So maybe the teacher doesn't matter as long as you learn the material. If neither works for you, well, then you've chosen neither... At least for the time being..

Yes.

Can you get a diploma through independent study without attending the classes of a particular teacher? I really don't know

I think it depends on the teacher. But as long as they (the teachers) won't speak to me, it's a moot point.

A.

[Taalcon]

No, it's not a "matter of interpretation", it's a matter of history. Philisophically, the Greeks are who came up with the concept of "soul". That was after the Old Testament.

Greeks certainly developed the idea independently through Philosophy. They also developed the idea of Atoms and and cells through the same means.

Both, I believe, were realities before the Greeks found a way to express them.

[Caspian]

To get back on topic a little bit:

I feel a need to clarify my original statement.

I don't think that atheism is correct. I don't think agnosticism is correct. I don't think that Buddhism, or Hinduism or Islam, or any number of other theological or philosophical positions are correct. I'm a theist, and particuarly a Christian. If I thought atheism was correct, I would be an atheist. I think people have a right to find God for themselves, and I acknowledge that I may be wrong, but I don't think I am. If I thought Christianity wasn't true I wouldn't be a Christian. If I though atheism or agnosticism was a valid philosophical position, I'd be an atheist or an agnostic.

That wasn't really my original point.

I don't believe in atheists. I don't think they exist. I don't think that there are atheists.

[suminonA]

What would convince you of their existence? What kind of proof do you need?

A.

[Taalcon]

Caspian's logic makes my brain hurt.

[zeroguy]

What would convince you of their existence? What kind of proof do you need?

My guess is a credible argument about why someone believes it to be "correct".

[suminonA]

I suspect any atheist could make the same argument "against" the theists. Isn't it all a personal choice, in the end?

And BTW, as long as there is a possibility that this Universe is just an energy fluctuation ACCIDENT, I don’t see how the (strong) atheists that have chosen to believe that NO DEITY is needed for such an accident to occur might bring “better/credible” proof for it. At least they don’t postulate that something that hasn’t been proven to exist exists.

A.

[hive_king]

To say with certainty that no God exists displays either arrogance or ignorance.

By the same logic, to say with certainty that a God (especially a certain God) exists also displays either arrogance or ignorance.

Another thing I don't understand is how you make the jump from "the position of atheism is untenable" to "atheists themselves do not exist." Please explain this to me.

[hive_king]

You know, your example about the blue whale made me think of another beast that people argued over the existance of: the unicorn. For many years, almost all of Western civilization was convinced that unicorns were out there somewhere. Some of the brightest minds of antiquity took its existance as a fact. Many people even pointed to the bible as evidence this creature existed.

If you can show me an actual real life unicorn, I'll gladly sell you my half of the Eiffel Tower.

[mr_thebrain]

There is this atheist swimming in the ocean. All of a sudden he sees a shark in the water, so he starts swimming furiously towards his boat.

As he looks back, he sees the shark turn and head towards him. He's scared to death, and as he sees the jaws of the great white beast open, revealing its horrific teeth, the atheist screams, "Oh God! Save me!"

In an instant, time is frozen and a bright light shines down from above. The man is motionless in the water when he hears the voice of God say, "You are an atheist. Why do you call upon me when you do not believe in me?"

Confused, and knowing he can't lie, the man replies, "Well, that's true I don't believe in you, but how about the shark? Can you make the shark believe in you?"

The Lord replies, "As you wish," and the light retracts back into the heavens. The man feels the water move once again.

As the atheist looks back, he can see the jaws of the shark start to close down on him, when all of sudden the shark stops and pulls back.

Shocked, the man watches as the huge beast closes its eyes, bows its head and says, "Thank you Lord for this food which I am about to receive..."

[pooka]

Wow, does the mod have a "split topic" option where we can discuss the biblicity of the soul apart from the existence of Atheists? Or is this just normal thread drift?

Is the insistence that the soul is extra-biblical common in Christianity? I've only seen it from Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day adventists, so far...

But I had a presbyterian boyfriend for about 2 years who grew up to become a minister, and I'm pretty sure it would have come up in conversation.

And in the Pope's infamous talk, he spoke of the contribution that the Hellene culture was, that the septuagint was the perfection of the Old Testament. I has got me thinking quite a bit.

[hive_king]

Just start a new thread, and continue the discussion from there. That'd be easier.

[primevere]

Isn't atheism kind of a contradiction. Sure, they don't belive that there is a God but isn't that still a belief, NOT to believe... Thats pretty much my stand point on it.

[suminonA]

Isn't atheism kind of a contradiction. Sure, they don't belive that there is a God but isn't that still a belief, NOT to believe... Thats pretty much my stand point on it.

Nobody said that atheism isn't a choice. It's just the choice not to believe in the existence of something that hasn't been proven yet (and is even considered to be unprovable by some theists).

Are you arguing that atheism isn't more rational in this regard?

A.

[anonshadow]

Isn't atheism kind of a contradiction. Sure, they don't belive that there is a God but isn't that still a belief, NOT to believe... Thats pretty much my stand point on it.

Belief and religion are not synonymous. There can be beliefs held by both theists and atheists that have nothing to do with their particular religious beliefs.