If you kill someone during a war and don't repent for it....

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Postby Yebra » Sat May 12, 2007 2:11 am

But we don't judge death just by the end result, killing in self-defence or crimes of passion tend to be looked on as less serious than premediated murder. When a soldier kills another soldier, they do so in the certain knowledge that the other was trying to kill them. It's different to self-defence, but it's also different to murder. There may not be degrees of death, but there are degrees of killing.
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat May 12, 2007 3:02 am

Yes I'm well aware of that, but none of that BS matters much to the dead guy.
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Postby Fish Tank » Sat May 12, 2007 5:15 am

Exactly Dr. Mobius.

EL... your interpretation of what the ten commandments meant is not shared with everyone. You're acting as if your view is the only one accepted. And it's not...talk about an ideologically shut mind...
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sat May 12, 2007 12:19 pm

So what was the point in asking for clarification on the meaning of one of the commandments if you're going to refuse to accept the answer given?
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Postby Fish Tank » Sat May 12, 2007 12:34 pm

Read my first post...



Really more interested if the Bible specifically says anything relating to war... but opinions are welcome.
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Postby Yebra » Sat May 12, 2007 1:06 pm

Dr M,

It doesn't matter to the dead guy (it pretty much universally sucks for them), but it's very much important to the alive guy, have they committed a sin in the same respect as had they murdered someone? It might all be semantics for the dead, but it's an important issue for the living.

FT,

You asked for opinions, Rei gives you one and then you dismiss it because you didn't agree with it. If you really want a debate, you have to engage more than that.
Really more interested if the Bible specifically says anything relating to war... but opinions are welcome.
If you're just looking just for bible quotes you're casting your net a little thin, most denominations see the Bible to be the core of their faith as opposed to it's entirety. Aquinas's Just War Theory is relevant to the question for many Christians but you won't find it in the bible. If you're going to reject the opinions of people without argument, I'd suggest Google might be more help to you than us.

Bible on War.

Koran on War.

I've just grabbed the links from the top of the list, it may or may not be an accurate impression but it'll be a good starting point for you.
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Postby Fish Tank » Sat May 12, 2007 1:56 pm

I wasn't dismissing his opinion... he was dismissing mine. I was simply saying that you can't say your opinion is right and mine is wrong...


You cant be sure what the commandment meant. So he cannot say my opinion is wrong when his opinion holds the same amount of ground.

So it's okay to kill people long as we have a reason.... yeah... sorry Mr. Iraqi... we're gonna kill you and your family because... wait... why are we in Iraq again?


And that isn't murder...
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Postby neo-dragon » Sat May 12, 2007 2:53 pm

What about killing in self defence? Do you see that as murder, Fish Tank? Is it better to be killed rather than kill if those are the only options available?

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Postby jotabe » Sat May 12, 2007 3:21 pm

Killing in war... sometimes i tend to think it's worse than killing under other circumstances.
After all, when you kill in war, you are killing someone who hasn't really done anything, someone who just happens to be there, and might even do not want to. A person that, under other circumstances, might be a friend. But he is there, and you are there too, and one killing the other is quite a random thing. A killing in "real life" has actually causes (except for psychotic killers): it might be taking justice by your hand, it might be an emotional overreaction, or even out of convenience. But it has a cause.

And i can't really equate killing in war to self-defence. When you are in your battlefield, you aren't really there because of defending an idea, a legal system, the people close to you. You are because you have been ordered to. Soldiers killing each other in war aren't doing so by self-defence, they do it because the people that has authority over them are enemies.

Self defence itself? I consider it is murder, but with extenuating circumstances... if you are only saving yourself. If killing someone is the only way to stop that person from killing someone else (not you), then i don't think it's murder.

This is just my oppinion, at any rate.
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Postby Yebra » Sat May 12, 2007 3:35 pm

I was simply saying that you can't say your opinion is right and mine is wrong...
Yet that is exactly what you have done repeatably.
You cant be sure what the commandment meant. So he cannot say my opinion is wrong when his opinion holds the same amount of ground.
I can be absolutely sure what the commandment meant. If we're going by what the commandments mean, then going back to the original hebrew seems the way to go here.

http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html
The Jewish sages note that the word “ratsakh” applies only to illegal killing (e.g., premeditated murder or manslaughter) — and is never used in the administration of justice or for killing in war. Hence the KJV translation as “thou shalt not kill” is too broad.
It's pretty clear that a distinction between different forms of killing is inherent in the commandment, this isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. You can disagree with the sentiment, but you can't change the fact that that is what it says.
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Postby neo-dragon » Sat May 12, 2007 3:50 pm


Self defence itself? I consider it is murder, but with extenuating circumstances... if you are only saving yourself. If killing someone is the only way to stop that person from killing someone else (not you), then i don't think it's murder.

This is just my oppinion, at any rate.
So how exactly is killing to protect someone else less morally questionable than killing to protect yourself?

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Postby jotabe » Sat May 12, 2007 4:00 pm

Well, it's a technicallity, but in self-defence you are just chosing between your attacker's life and your own. It's impossible to be impartial in this situation, but the fact is that you will be impartial. Instead, defending others, can be considered selfless, what, in most moral systems, is considered superior to being selfish.
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Postby neo-dragon » Sat May 12, 2007 4:16 pm

So what if I kill to protect, say, my mother? How impartial and selfless was that? I guess that means I should let my mom die. It's the only fair thing to do since I can't impartially choose between the two lives, right.

This is how I see the matter of self defense (or defense of others). Once a kill or be killed situation is initiated the aggressor is the one who has made the decision that a life will be taken and he is now responsible for it. Thus, being placed in this situation against my own will, I don't think there's anything morally wrong or selfish about making sure that the aggressor is the one to lose his life if someone has to.

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Postby jotabe » Sat May 12, 2007 6:00 pm

I didn't say it was morally wrong. I said i consider it murder.
And comparing doing it to save yourself with doing it to save someone else, i said that i consider it is morally better to do it to save someone else.
Just that.
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Postby Fish Tank » Sat May 12, 2007 8:24 pm

Yet that is exactly what you have done repeatably.
Show me where I said anyones opinion was wrong. Giving my opinion is not saying someone elses is wrong. Since when do people think other's opinions are more correct than their own......
I can be absolutely sure what the commandment meant. If we're going by what the commandments mean, then going back to the original hebrew seems the way to go here.
The original hebrew is the way to go... but it is interpreted many different ways. By many different people.
http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html
The Jewish sages note that the word “ratsakh” applies only to illegal killing (e.g., premeditated murder or manslaughter) — and is never used in the administration of justice or for killing in war. Hence the KJV translation as “thou shalt not kill” is too broad.
Did you even read that entire page? Or did you just find something that supported your argument so you posted it? I can google up 1000 different answers.... at least half which contradict your statement.

This part, "and is never used in the administration of justice or for killing in war.

Is just straight out bull****. Ratsakh means killing without cause. Why are there war criminals? Is shooting an unarmed Iraqi soldier not murder because he had a cause? With that translation killing your wife is perfectly fine... she committed adultery so you can kill her and face no punishment from God.
It's pretty clear that a distinction between different forms of killing is inherent in the commandment, this isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. You can disagree with the sentiment, but you can't change the fact that that is what it says.
It's "pretty clear" to whom? To you? You can not only read Hebrew perfectly but have the exact ancient text with you?
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Postby Fish Tank » Sat May 12, 2007 9:29 pm

Looking for something a little more concrete.... like a phrase in the bible describing the acts of killing which will not be punished by god.... not a single word which has been disputed.
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Postby Rei » Sat May 12, 2007 10:11 pm

Believe it or not, I do actually study Hebrew. And here is where you may find the text in question. This is a very good online Hebrew-English dictionary. And you will find that it says "not to murder". And the Jews have made a point of keeping very accurate transmission of their texts. So I can tell you that Yebra is right and he can tell you exactly what is intended by the text and has always been intended by the text. The only dispute over this particular word happens in English.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Sat May 12, 2007 10:22 pm

Well, there's the killing of the Midianites, which many Jews even today feel was entirely justified killing. The situation is a blurry in-between one: somewhere between self-defence and brutal war.

You could go look up studies yourself, you know. You wouldn't have us to tell we're wrong, but you might learn enough to come back and actually have a reason for telling us we're wrong.
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Postby Fish Tank » Sat May 12, 2007 11:12 pm

Rei if it was so indisputable why is it there are 1000 different interpretations of the same text? I know the text in question, why is it that it says something different on each of the links you guys have posted?

I have looked up many studies of it myself and it has given me very inconclusive results. The same crap you guys are telling me. The act of, "murder" or "killing without cause" is very vague. I can venture a guess that murder was looked upon differently a couple thousand years ago.

It also does not list examples of the type of homicide with cause.

Is any murder done without cause?
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Postby Rei » Sat May 12, 2007 11:34 pm

Every single text linked agrees that the original Hebrew is talking about murder, and everybody here seems to agree on what murder is, so I'm not certain what these many interpretations you are fussing about are, least of all in the Hebrew (and I do not think that discussions over English semantics are valid for this).

There aren't that many different interpretations of what murdery is, generally. If you can show me that murder was viewed in a significantly different manner several thousand years ago than it is today, maybe we can discuss your protestations. At the moment, however, you just sound like somebody who is trying desperately to start an argument.
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Postby Fish Tank » Sun May 13, 2007 12:39 am

What is murder? What draws the line between homicide and murder? Can you answer that without leaving any gray areas? If you can I'd love to see you try.
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sun May 13, 2007 1:59 am

If A then B.
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Postby jotabe » Sun May 13, 2007 3:51 am

F_T, could there be any moral system without any unclear matter?
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Postby hive_king » Sun May 13, 2007 12:33 pm

FT, the hebrews commited genocide in the OT, and felt totally justified about it (see: Joshua), so it stands to reason that war, to the ancient hebrews, isn't covered under that commandment.
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Postby Sparrowhawk » Sun May 13, 2007 12:43 pm

I think I'd like to see FT actually try to debate a topic that he actually has an opinion about, instead of bringing up topics to see what other people think, and then pissing all over what they say.
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Postby Fish Tank » Sun May 13, 2007 2:07 pm

Everyone feels justified when they are doing the killing... that really isn't the issue. It's whether or not God will forgive them for genocide. Thinking God will is obviously not the same.

I'm not bashing peoples opinions. Whose opinion did I bash?
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sun May 13, 2007 3:07 pm

I'm not bashing peoples opinions. Whose opinion did I bash?
EL... your interpretation of what the ten commandments meant is not shared with everyone. You're acting as if your view is the only one accepted. And it's not...talk about an ideologically shut mind...
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sun May 13, 2007 3:21 pm

Why haven't the Crusades come up yet in a thread about god justifying war? There's also that recent jihad that he supposedly told the Muslims to wage against the American infidels.
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Postby jotabe » Sun May 13, 2007 4:20 pm

I would like to point out that humans talking in name of God to justify wars doesn't equate to God justifying wars.

Also, i would like to point out that, for Christians, the old alliance (the 10 commandments) are kind of void after the new alliance (love each other as I loved you) happened.
So, for a Christian, while the discussion of the difference between killing and slaying might be extremely interesting from a literary and linguistic point of view, is religiously of little relevance, at least, until it can be shown that a war is an act of love.
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Postby Fish Tank » Sun May 13, 2007 9:09 pm

Dr Mobius if anyone was bashing anyone's opinion it was EL... who said this
If you say that soldiers killing soldiers carries the same weight of culpability as premeditated murder, we may as well shut down the topic, because there's no point talking to someone with such an ideologically shut mind.
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Postby zeroguy » Sun May 13, 2007 10:11 pm

Dr Mobius if anyone was bashing anyone's opinion it was EL... who said this
Just because someone else said something bad about a particular point of view doesn't mean you didn't bash someone else's.

Hmm, that had a lot of negatives. Lets try: EL may have bashed a particular point of view, but didn't you as well?

Even more directly: What does it matter what EL said? You bashed a viewpoint, someone called you on it, so stop trying to make distractions by pointing your finger at someone else.
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Postby Fish Tank » Sun May 13, 2007 11:09 pm

Ahhh so EL can bash opinions all he wants... but when I make a comment several people have to comment on it. I see....
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Postby hive_king » Sun May 13, 2007 11:25 pm

Technically, she didn't bash your opinion, she said you were being close-minded about such things, which is something totally different.
Everyone feels justified when they are doing the killing... that really isn't the issue. It's whether or not God will forgive them for genocide. Thinking God will is obviously not the same.
FT, God ordered most of the genocides during the conquests of caanan, according to scripture. That should resolve any question of how the israelites treated the issue.

You should really do yourself a favor: you can buy a bible really cheap at any bookstore, and many organizations (like the Gideons or the Jehovah's Witnesses) will give you a free bible. You should get yourself a copy of the bible (I reccomend, for your purposes, New International Version, as it is one of the more reader-friendly versions, and is one of the easiest of find) and read it. You can easily get through it in a year just reading a four chapters a day, and I've heard of people getting through it in about a month who really put themselves to it. It would answer almost all of your questions about christianity and the chritian view of God.
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Postby Dr. Mobius » Sun May 13, 2007 11:52 pm

I would like to point out that humans talking in name of God to justify wars doesn't equate to God justifying wars.
Wasn't the Bible written by humans speaking in God's name?
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Mon May 14, 2007 12:01 am

Oooh, I get this warm shivery feeling with you all talking about me. I really should go away more often.

Fishtank, you do not know anything about linguistics or translation. That's not bashing any viewpoint, that's a considered and objective judgment based upon my own long and intimate relationship with thorny translational problems. You have no idea how silly it sounds, hearing someone argue that Hebrew doesn't mean what it does.

Nor is it bashing anything to say you don't seem to actually read posts and consider them. If you did, you would have looked a little further into the killing of the Midianites, which is very easily located in the Torah, and seen that God Himself ordered it. You might think that God's a right bastard to have done so, but you would no longer be able to question His sanctioning of it. And since you're presupposing a God and a worldview that accepts him as the Authority on Right and Wrong, you have no place arguing that it still wasn't moral. Not by the parameters you defined.

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