Mormonism

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Postby pooka » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:42 pm

God is not flesh and blood, but he is described as flesh and bone. This was the significance of the first vision of Joseph Smith, though we believe it is similar to the vision of St. Stephen, when he saw Jesus Christ standing on the right hand of God. God is such a glorious being that mortals cannot behold him with their natural eyes. No unclean thing can enter his presence, which is why Jesus came to earth to redeem us.

But we do believe he is the father of our spirits and we have the potential to become like him in eternal life, by becoming one with Jesus as Jesus is one with him.

I hadn't really questioned this doctrine until this summer when I went on a missionary visit with the sisters to a Pentacostal family- who also reject the trinity, but more in the other direction of Jesus being God. It wasn't that I was tempted by their doctrine, I just realized my understanding was intellectual and not spiritual.

As I meditated on this, I recalled when Jesus prays "Not my will but thine be done." If Jesus is actually one with God in substance, what is the significance of this surrender? Yet this surrender is the only part of Jesus' ministry in which we can, as he commanded, follow him. Realizing this caused my heart to overflow with joy.

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Postby hive_king » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:38 pm

Erm, if God doesn't have blood, how does he get nutrients to his cells and maintain a proper body pressure?
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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Postby wigginboy » Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:52 am

well, now were getting into cell respiration and homeostasis of the divine, which i dont think is a common science yet... but we could found it.

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Postby wigginboy » Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:04 pm

Sorry, I must have heard her wrong. But in that case, what exactly is the difference between flesh and blood and flesh and bone anyway? Why is one not the other? And using the evidnece you cited from the Bible, it seems that you interpret God to have been just a man, but an immortal one, and also the progenitor of our race. Im not sure if I'm really understanding this right, but thats why Im talking to my cousin's missionary friends, to clarify some things that I dont understand. I hope that maybe i can get a somewhat solid conversation base accrued here before I actually do talk to them.

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Postby hive_king » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:28 am

Where do Mormons believe that God and the prexistance came from? I mean, they have to have came from somewhere...

Also, why is God bound by the rules of "mercy" and "justice"? I mean, Justice and Mercy aren't even concrete definitions, they're relative. There are hundreds of instances that what may be just or merciful to one person wouldn't be to another. I find a God bound by relative rules (or any rules) to be baffling.
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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Postby Taalcon » Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:15 pm

And using the evidnece you cited from the Bible, it seems that you interpret God to have been just a man, but an immortal one, and also the progenitor of our race.
I would never call our Heavenly Father, 'Just a Man'. It's really not accurate. And while immortal, He is also so much more than that - He is Exalted and Perfected far beyond what we are, or could ever become without his assistance. However, the type of person He is now is, indeed, what He wants us to become. And it is his own personal mission to help us get there. We can't do it without Him.
Im not sure if I'm really understanding this right, but thats why Im talking to my cousin's missionary friends, to clarify some things that I dont understand. I hope that maybe i can get a somewhat solid conversation base accrued here before I actually do talk to them.
You're doing a good job understanding well enough. Feel free to ask any more questions - those that can be answered, I will try to answer :)

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Postby Taalcon » Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:20 pm

Where do Mormons believe that God and the prexistance came from? I mean, they have to have came from somewhere...
As far as I understand what has been revealed on the subject, unorganized matter, and unorganized Intelligence always was. When the plans of organization and exaltation started, there's simply no information on that subject. I don't know. I don't think it's important to know at this time.
Also, why is God bound by the rules of "mercy" and "justice"? I mean, Justice and Mercy aren't even concrete definitions, they're relative. There are hundreds of instances that what may be just or merciful to one person wouldn't be to another. I find a God bound by relative rules (or any rules) to be baffling.
You're using your relative definitions of earthly Mercy and Justice to apply to the Divine Laws that apply to all. The Divine Laws of Mercy and Justice are not relative - they apply equally to all.

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Postby hive_king » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:15 pm

And what are the yardstick used for divine mercy and justice? I see no way they COULD be anything but relative concepts.
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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Postby lyons24000 » Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:19 pm

It all comes down to this. John 4:24 says, "God is a spirit". Even the BoM says God is a spirit. Alma 18:26-28 and Alma 22:8-11 both say that God is a "Great Spirit".

Now, even though I don't believe the BoM is inspired (and I'm not bashing anybody's belief in the book) I still think I can quote a few passages.
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Postby Taalcon » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:01 am

It's true. According to LDS belief, God is a spirit. A Great, awesome spirit.

But I'm a spirit too. And so are all of you. You and I are clothed in a mortal, corruptible body of flesh and blood. God the Father (and Christ since His Resurrection) are clothed with immortal, incomprehensible bodies of flesh and bone.

While prior to Jesus Christ being born in the flesh, LDS believe he was the great Jehovah, the God of Israel. Very few actually saw the Father, but dealt with His Son, his, for all intents and purposes, "General Manager" of Earth.

While there are several accounts of Jehovah speaking face to face with prophets in the Old Testament, John was correct when he wrote, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 ) - Jehovah/Christ was the agent of the Father specifically interacting with the creation on Earth. It was Him who created the Earth under the direction and authority of the Father.

Just as Jehovah gave messages to Moses, who had appointed Aaron as his spokesman, The Father gives messages to Jehovah/Christ, who then appoints Prophets as His spokesmen.

but during this time before his birth as the Babe of Bethlehem, however, he did not have a body yet. And if Christ/Jehovah was being referred to specifically in those verses in Alma, (which I believe He was) the statement is just as accurate - He didn't have a physical body then, but was a personage of spirit, as the Holy Ghost is still today.

It is a primary teaching in the Church that all of us are literal spirit children of our Heavenly Father (Hebrews 12: 9). We are spirits first, then remain spirits as we are clothed in mortal bodies, and then, following death, we will be resurrected spirits clothed in spiritual perfected physical bodies.

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Postby DamienVryce » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:11 pm

Taalcon, quick question.
ok, so I don't know much about Mormonism but please explain to me about the possiblity of a Mormon that is married in the temple and sealed and so on and so forth which he can become a God himself? How can that be when Mormons call themselves Christians? I don't agree with the use of the term when as a "Christian/Mormon" you can believe in many gods, whereas the Christian doctrine states that there is only one God.

I am very confused.

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Postby lyons24000 » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:46 pm

Taalcon, quick question.
ok, so I don't know much about Mormonism but please explain to me about the possiblity of a Mormon that is married in the temple and sealed and so on and so forth which he can become a God himself? How can that be when Mormons call themselves Christians? I don't agree with the use of the term when as a "Christian/Mormon" you can believe in many gods, whereas the Christian doctrine states that there is only one God.

I am very confused.
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Postby DamienVryce » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:28 pm

Shoot, I guess any well-read Mormon can answer.

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Postby Slim » Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:59 am

To understand, we need to back up a bit. I know this will be a long drawn-out speach, but I think it will help to see it from our perspective.

We believe that God is literally our Heavenly Father -- the Father of our spirits. We lived with him as spirits before we were born into mortality. However, we were different from God, he had a perfect glorified physical body as well as a spiritual body. He has a plan for us so that we can gain a physical body and become like him.
Abraham 3:22-26

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will aprove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first bestate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
In life, our physical bodies are still imperfect, we will all die, and we make mistakes and sin. These things separate us from our Heavenly Father. Jesus Christ was chosen to be the Savior. Because of His ressurection, all will live again. Because of His atonement those who follow Him will return to live with Heavenly Father and become like Him.

Jesus Christ is the only one who could perform this atonement. Although we are all spiritual children of God, Jesus Christ is God's Only Begotten Son in the flesh.

This is the reason we see ourselves as Christian: Without him, the whole plan would fail. We would be no greater than Satan and his angels. We are powerless to save ourselves, so we need Jesus Christ.

Doctorine and Covenants 132:19-21 is the part you seem to know about. Yes, we believe that those sealed in the temple and endure to the end in righteousness, being cleansed by Jesus Christ, will become gods.
Romans 8:16-17

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Children have the potential to grow up to be like their parents. Jesus Christ was the first to receive immortality and Eternal life. He has inherited all that our Father has. We are promised that because of him, we can be joint-heirs with Christ, if we suffer with him.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Even though we believe people may become gods, that doesn't matter to us. No matter what happens, Heavenly Father will always be our father, He will always be our God. Jesus Christ will always be our Savior, no one else. We are strictly commanded to worship only God. We pray to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, no one else.

Some people think we worship Joseph Smith or others, and that is totally false. He was just a prophet, just like Moses in the Old Testament, or Peter in the New Testament.

So, that is also why we still see ourselves as Christian: Christian doctorine states that there is only one God. Others may see us as believing in many gods, but to us, there is still only one God: our Heavenly Father.

The Living Christ -- modern Apostles' testimony on Jesus Christ.
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Postby lyons24000 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:16 am

All I know is that the Bible says there is one God. Here are ten Bible verses from different Bible books that prove one God.

Deuteronomy 4:39-"The LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else."

1 Kings 8:60-"That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else."

Psalm 86:10-"For you are great and are doing wondrous things;
You are God, you alone."

Isaiah 43:10-"No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me."

Isaiah 44:6-"I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but Me."

Mark 12:32-"There is one God; and there is none other but he."

John 17:3-"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."

1 Corinthians 8:6-"Yet for us there is one God, the Father."

Ephesians 4:6-"One God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all."

1 Timothy 2:5-"For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, a man, Christ Jesus."

James 2:19-"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."

That's what the Bible says and I'm sticking to it.
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Postby Miguel Ardevaas » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:04 pm

All I know is that the Bible says there is one God. Here are ten Bible verses from different Bible books that prove one God.
What about all the verses that say and/or suggest multiple gods? Do we simply disregard them, just because they don't fit your preconceived opinion?

Genesis 1:26 -- And God said, let us make man in our image.

Genesis 3:22 -- And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.

Genesis 11:7 -- Let us go down, and there confound their language.

Exodus 12:12 -- And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.

Exodus 15:11 -- Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?

Exodus 18:11 -- Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods.

Exodus 20:3 -- Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exodus 20:5 -- Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

Exodus 22:20 -- He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Exodus 22:28 -- Thou shalt not revile the gods.

Exodus 23:13 -- Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Exodus 23:24 -- Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

Exodus 23:32 -- Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.

Exodus 34:14 -- For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Numbers 33:4 -- Upon their gods also theLORD executed judgments.

Deuteronomy 6:14-15 --Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)

Deuteronomy 10:17 -- For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords.

Deuteronomy 28:14 -- Thou shalt not ... go after other gods to serve them.

1 Samuel 6:5 -- Ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods.

1 Samuel 28:13 -- And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

1 Chronicles 16:25 -- The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.

Psalm 82:1 -- God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods.

Psalm 86:8 -- Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord.

Psalm 96:4 -- For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.

Psalm 97:7 -- Worship him, all ye gods.

Psalm 136:2 -- O give thanks unto the God of gods.

Jeremiah 1:16 -- I will utter my judgments against them ... who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods.

Jeremiah 10:11 -- The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

Jeremiah 25:6 -- And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

Zephaniah 2:11 -- The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth.


For the record, there is strong evidence to suggest that the Hebrew people were of the henotheistic tradition. They didn't necessarily believe that only one god existed, but merely that their god was more powerful than the rest. Sound familiar? It should, considering nearly every religion of the area believed something of a similar nature.

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Postby lyons24000 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:57 pm

The Jews believed in One True God and all other gods were false. Just because the Bible talks about other gods does not mean they are real. What about these?

"And there you will have to serve gods, the product of the hands of man, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell."-Deuteronomy 4:28

“A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; eyes they have, but they cannot see; ears they have, but they cannot hear. A nose they have, but they cannot smell. Hands are theirs, but they cannot feel. Feet are theirs, but they cannot walk; they utter no sound with their throat."-Psalm 115:3-7

"They drank wine, and they praised the gods of gold and of silver, copper, iron, wood and stone."-Daniel 5:4

"And there was a consigning of their gods to the fire, because they were no gods, but the workmanship of man’s hands, wood and stone, so that they destroyed them."-Isaiah 37:19

"And they have consigned their gods to the fire, because they were no gods, but the workmanship of man’s hands, wood and stone; so that they destroyed them."-2 Kings 19:18

"But the rest of the men who were not killed by these plagues did not repent of the works of their hands, so that they should not worship the demons and the idols of gold and silver and copper and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk."-Revelation 9:20
And I bet you probably think that the Golden Calf was real, too. Just because the Bible mentions other gods does not mean they were real. Read my other post and you'll see that they didn't believe in more then one God, whether you continue to believe it or not because because you'll listen to what you're taught by man over what you read in God's Word because you hide behind that whole

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Postby Miguel Ardevaas » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:51 pm

1. You only have five scriptures even relevant to what the Hebrew people believed. The latter half is New Testament work. Odd, isn't it, when there's a multitude of scriptures that suggest more than one. Of course, you'll just disregard that little fact, because, hey, you've already made up your mind.

2. You can try to use your silly apologetics all you wish; they failed in the realm of scholarship, even among biblical scholars themselves, so I'm doubtful you can pull it off much better.

3. Since you insist that the gods mentioned are not real, how exactly is it that the Hebrew god could take vengeance on non-existing entities? How will he defeat them? Judge them? Do anything to them whatsoever?

4. The thing is, that's not what the Hebrew people believed. Your opinion on the matter, including what your Sunday School teacher told you, isn't going to change that. Your opinion really doesn't affect history. There is ample evidence to suggest a henotheistic tradition. But if labeling anything that conflicts with your ideology false makes you feel better, have at it. It doesn't change the fact that prior to the Babylonian Captivity, most serious scholarship points towards henotheism. I'd suggest looking into the work of M.S. Smith if I thought for a second that you'd seriously consider it.

5. You asked me to explain the scriptures you listed. Okay, it's fairly simple. They say absolutely nothing about the existence of other deities. It says that some of the idols aren't gods. Great, that doesn't address the nearby Canaanite gods, though.

6. Do you have a single iota of evidence that the Bible is any more holy, or valid, than the scholarship done on the text? While I enjoy the "Word of God" card being thrown about, I ask for a little more in terms of validity.

7. I didn't say anything about the Bible being changed over time. In fact, I think it's remarkable at how well it has preserved its meaning over the years, as the Dead Sea Scrolls attest. But Homer's work is relatively unchanged as well. Are we to accept the Greek pantheon of gods as well? For me, it's not that the Bible has changed that makes it problematic using it as a basis for an argument, it's that I have no reason to place more holiness upon it than any other religious text. So the "Word of God" argument amounts to nothing, because every religion claims their text is the "Word of God."

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Postby lyons24000 » Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:45 pm

1. You only have five scriptures even relevant to what the Hebrew people believed. The latter half is New Testament work. Odd, isn't it, when there's a multitude of scriptures that suggest more than one. Of course, you'll just disregard that little fact, because, hey, you've already made up your mind.
Actually, while Mark and John are in the New Testament, on the timeline, they take place in the pre-Christian era and would still expound on Jewish belief. And Deuteronomy, 1 Kings, Psalms, and Isaiah are all pre-exile
3. Since you insist that the gods mentioned are not real, how exactly is it that the Hebrew god could take vengeance on non-existing entities? How will he defeat them? Judge them? Do anything to them whatsoever?
YHWH can defeat gods who are not real by showing that he is more powerful then them.

All ten of the Ten Plagues against Egypt were against Egyptian gods who were not real. Each god had power over something so YHWH sent a plague on what that god had power over to show that 1. YHWH was more powerful, 2. That the other god didn't actually exist.

Egyptian gods
Plague #1: Turning the Nile to blood was against Egyptian god Hapi which was supposed to be the deification of the Nile.
Plague #2: Plague of Frogs was against the Egyptian god Heqt, which was supposed to be the deification of frogs.
Plague #5: Plague on livestock, causing the animals to die. This was against the Egyptian bull-gods Apis and Mnevis, the Egyptian cow-god Hathor, and the Egyptian ram-god Khnum.
Plague #9: Darkness spreading over all of Egypt was a blow at the Egyptian sun-god Ra.

Those are just four examples. The point I am making is that these "gods" were powerless to stop what YHWH did, meaning they weren't real. If they had been real then they would be equal to YHWH in power. And about 50 years later Moses wrote Deuteronomy, including Deut. 4:28.

And what about 1 Kings 18 where Elijah called fire down and proved that the Canaanite god, Baal, was not real? Read 1 Kings 18.
4. The thing is, that's not what the Hebrew people believed. Your opinion on the matter, including what your Sunday School teacher told you, isn't going to change that. Your opinion really doesn't affect history. There is ample evidence to suggest a henotheistic tradition. But if labeling anything that conflicts with your ideology false makes you feel better, have at it. It doesn't change the fact that prior to the Babylonian Captivity, most serious scholarship points towards henotheism. I'd suggest looking into the work of M.S. Smith if I thought for a second that you'd seriously consider it.
I don't like adjectives like the word "most" and "serious" in the sentence. By saying that only serious scholarship can point to henotheism is a biased statement and most is an opinion. Anyone else can say "most scholars believe the Jews were monotheistic" and it would have a similar effect on the people who want to believe that. Just like how I would believe the half a million scholarly pages that say Jews were monotheistic and disregard anything to the contrary, you would believe anything that said the Jews were henotheistic and disregard anything to the contrary. Opinion doesn't count.

While I am not going to answer every verse I want you to take Exodus 20:3-5 in context.

"You must not have any other gods against my face. You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them."
The verse you skipped in your list of all the Bible verses that suggest more then one god between Exodus 20:3 and Exodus 20:5 says that these are carved images of forms on the earth.

And those verses in Genesis 1, 3, 11 are YHWH talking to Jesus. This is commonly believed by Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians alike. So, those really prove nothing.

Again, you can tell me "you can go on believing what you believe despite the evidence" and I can tell you "go on believing what you believe despite the evidence"-because the evidence does goes both ways.
Last edited by lyons24000 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby hive_king » Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:19 pm

Now here's a challenge, lyons. Debate on this forum without the help of the watchtower society.
The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet him, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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Postby lyons24000 » Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:33 pm

Now here's a challenge, lyons. Debate on this forum without the help of the watchtower society.
Who says I get my information from the Watchtower Society? I do most of my research from the internet when it comes down to Bible verses to prove my point. I haven't used the Watchtower Society once in this little debate.

(I did in the Christmas thread)
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Postby hive_king » Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:46 pm

its just that the vast majority of your religious posts have the same tone and style of watchtower material, and I think I recognized a few on pweb II as things I've read before. I've been reading watchtower material for 15 year, so I'm pretty familier with the style. Not that all of your posts remind me of them, its just that a good part of them do. Also, most of your arguments seem to line up almost exactly with Brooklyn's official line.
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Postby Miguel Ardevaas » Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:15 pm

1. Are you serious? First of all, anything regarding Jesus after 33 CE is strictly in the realm of Christianity. That's when it stopped being a Jewish sect and became a religion of its own. Christian beliefs, even first century ones, are wholly irrelevant to Jewish ones at that point. While we're at it, why don’t we throw in scriptures from the Qu'ran, since they also trace their roots to the Hebrew people? Beyond that, the Gospel of John was the last of the gospels written, so even if you did have a point with Mark, you lost it when you mentioned John. You would have had better luck with Matthew or Luke, or better yet, Paul's epistles. At any rate, none of them have a thing to do with Jewish belief, because they’re no longer Jewish at that point.

3. Except, you know, you're just pulling things out of your ass. You're trying to force any evidence to fit your premise, and it's just working for you. Do you even understand what henotheism is? The fact that the Hebrew people believed and wrote that YHWH was the most powerful doesn't prove that no other gods existed. In every pantheon there are those who are more powerful than others. That's the entire premise of henotheism – "my God is more powerful than yours." Do you have any support for your claim that if they existed they would be of equal strength? Didn't think so.

I'm not even going to touch the Deuteronomy discussion.

4. Want to know what I hate? Your lame cop-out. I don't recall making any absolutes, but hey, what would I know? I'm just the guy who wrote it. It's nice that you can admit that you disregard anything that doesn't fit into your preconceived opinion, though. Not so nice that you insist that everyone is just like you. Believe it or not, people do exist in the world with fluid beliefs. Maybe if you attempted to look at the issue in a historical context, instead of a religious ones, you might be able to overcome that problem. Maybe. Besides, you don't have to take my word for it. The evidence is out there, whether you ignore it or not. The world doesn't disappear when you close your eyes.

As far as images goes, you seriously need an education if you honestly think anyone from that time period worshipped the image itself. They didn't. The images represented their gods. Because, you know, it was a common practice...

And funny, where in the Hebrew scripture does it say that in Genesis YHWH was talking to Jesus? Mmhmm, riiiiiiiiight.

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Postby hive_king » Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:45 am

One common tactic throughout history is “religious propaganda” where a religion spreads lies or half-truths about another religion. For instance, Roman pagans claimed that Christians actually practiced cannibalism during the Eucharist. Greeks claimed that the Hebrews had the head of an ass in the holy-of-holies. Some explorers claimed Muslims actually worshiped the black rock in Mecca. I view the suggestions that the neighboring tribes worshiped the idols themselves, rather than them just being place-holders or representatives for the god itself, to be a smear tactic by the bible writers. Do you really think someone would be stupid enough to think that a piece of wood they carved a face onto is going to be doing any prayer-answering? Not to mention flourishing religions like zorastorism.
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Postby Eaquae Legit » Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:49 am

Er, some religions DO believe that sort of thing. I'd have to look up exact references, but that does happen.
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Postby lyons24000 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:16 am

Do you really think someone would be stupid enough to think that a piece of wood they carved a face onto is going to be doing any prayer-answering?
You seem to be forgetting the Golden Calf. Aaron pulled that creation out of thin air and said, "Here is your god!"
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Postby lyons24000 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:58 am

1. Are you serious? First of all, anything regarding Jesus after 33 CE is strictly in the realm of Christianity. That's when it stopped being a Jewish sect and became a religion of its own. Christian beliefs, even first century ones, are wholly irrelevant to Jewish ones at that point. While we're at it, why don’t we throw in scriptures from the Qu'ran, since they also trace their roots to the Hebrew people? Beyond that, the Gospel of John was the last of the gospels written, so even if you did have a point with Mark, you lost it when you mentioned John. You would have had better luck with Matthew or Luke, or better yet, Paul's epistles. At any rate, none of them have a thing to do with Jewish belief, because they’re no longer Jewish at that point.
Christianity wasn't started until 36 CE, not before. And it's all the way you look at it. Just because John wrote the gospel after Christ died does not make it Christian. Granted, it was in the middle of the transition from Judiasm to Christianity but the Gospel is not in the realm of Christianity. It still takes place when Judiasm was still the main belief. For example: Jesus felt the temple was still holy. After his death, it wasn't anymore. It was more a symbol of holiness. During his life, Jesus preached almost soley to Jews, not Gentiles.
3. Except, you know, you're just pulling things out of your ass. You're trying to force any evidence to fit your premise, and it's just working for you. Do you even understand what henotheism is? The fact that the Hebrew people believed and wrote that YHWH was the most powerful doesn't prove that no other gods existed. In every pantheon there are those who are more powerful than others. That's the entire premise of henotheism – "my God is more powerful than yours." Do you have any support for your claim that if they existed they would be of equal strength? Didn't think so.
Even if YHWH was the most powerful, did he put bonds on Baal and not allow him to send fire down? Elijah said:
"If Yahweh is God, follow Him. But if Baal, follow him... The God who answers with fire, He is God."-1 Kings 18:21,24
The entire plan was to show that YHWH was the only, true God. That can be seen in the context. If Baal existed, YHWH, being perfect, would have allowed him to send fire down. He would have done nothing deceitful. Plus would he have let the Baal prophets put on a little show for hours?
"So they took the bull that he gave them, prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying, 'Baal, answer us!' But there was no sound; no one answered. Then they did their lame dance around the altar they had made. At noon Elijah mocked them. He said, 'Shout loudly, for he's a god! Maybe he's thinking it over; maybe he has wandered away; or maybe he's on the road. Perhaps he's sleeping and will wake up!' They shouted loudly, and cut themselves with knives and spears, according to their custom, until blood gushed out on them. All afternoon, they kept on raving until the offering of the evening sacrifice, but there was no sound, no one answered, no one paid attention."-1 Kings 18:26-29
YHWH gave Baal hours and hours to answer and he never did. The entire thing was to prove that YHWH was real and Baal wasn't.
I'm not even going to touch the Deuteronomy discussion.
The "gods" they worshiped were demons. Man made gods up all the time and said, "This god is real".
"They sacrificed to demons, not God, to gods they had not known, new gods that had just arrived, which your fathers did not fear."-Deuteronomy 32:16,17
Moses and Isaiah said that YHWH was the only true God. They wouldn't lie. Neither said that he is the most powerful God, but the only true God.
"See now that I alone am He; there is no God but Me. I bring death and I give life; I wound and I heal. No one can rescue anyone from My hand."-Deuteronomy 32:39
"You are My witnesses'—the LORD's declaration—'and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.'"-Isaiah 43:10
YHWH said that and YHWH doesn't lie. (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29)
The images represented their gods. Because, you know, it was a common practice.
Not among the Hebrews. Read the 2 Commandment.
And funny, where in the Hebrew scripture does it say that in Genesis YHWH was talking to Jesus? Mmhmm, riiiiiiiiight.
I never said that. I said that it is commonly accepted among Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians that he was talking to Jesus. The only type of proof I have is from Proverbs where Jesus is talking. And guess what? He's talking about his relationship to YHWH.
“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."-Proverbs 8:22-31
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Postby Miguel Ardevaas » Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:27 pm

1. Believe it or not, Jehovah's Witnesses aren’t the be-all-end-all of history scholars. The most widely accepted date for Jesus’ death, by Christian and secular scholars alike, is in either April of 30 or 33 CE. The dates of 27 and 36 CE are almost unanimously rejected. The gospels of Luke and John both point towards 30 or 33 CE (John points in particular to 33 CE).

Beyond that, it’s not all in the way you look at it. John was written sometime between the very end of the first century (at best) and the early second century. Christianity was already considered the one of the biggest threats to the Roman Empire by the time John wrote his gospel.

Moreover, the fact that their beliefs didn’t fall in line with those of the Jewish people – there’s a reason the Jews persecuted them – makes them wholly irrelevant to Jewish beliefs. The fact that they were born and raised Jewish doesn’t mean that their new belief system has a thing to do with standard Jewish beliefs.

The fact that Jesus taught solely to the Jews (not almost solely) does change the fact that the belief systems of the Jewish people and that of the early Christians are strikingly different. You just proved that point yourself, kid.

3. You still don’t get it. You’re not proving a single thing that you’re claiming. And despite whatever you want to believe, the Book of Kings was written after the Babylonian Capitivity, so they don’t really work for understanding pre-exile beliefs.

And you misunderstood me. I’m not going to touch Deuteronomy discussion because you have no concern for historical accuracy. The Jewish people themselves (not to mention secular scholars) have in doubt of Moses’ authorship for centuries. But hey, what do you care? If the Watchtower Society says so, it must be true. Who cares about scholarship, right?

4. The ten Commandments don’t prove that they believed the statues themselves were gods. Maybe you should try using evidence that actually proves your point. When the Moabites worshipped fish idols, they weren’t worshipping the idols themselves, but their god Chemosh.

As far as your insistence that God was talking to Jesus, you’re still talking out of your ass. Why? Because it has absolutely nothing to do with the Hebrew belief system. Christians believed that it was Jesus. And what did we say about using Christian beliefs as evidence for Jewish beliefs? It is nice to see that you like being deceptive, though. I mean, it’s not like Chapter 8 of the Book of Proverbs is, in its entirety, talking about wisdom, not Jesus. Oh, wait…

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Postby lyons24000 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:08 pm

1. Believe it or not, Jehovah's Witnesses aren’t the be-all-end-all of history scholars. The most widely accepted date for Jesus’ death, by Christian and secular scholars alike, is in either April of 30 or 33 CE. The dates of 27 and 36 CE are almost unanimously rejected. The gospels of Luke and John both point towards 30 or 33 CE (John points in particular to 33 CE).
If you read that again, I didn't say that Jesus died in 36 CE, but that Christianity was started in 36 CE. I know that Christ died in 33 CE. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus died in 33 CE.
The fact that Jesus taught solely to the Jews (not almost solely) does change the fact that the belief systems of the Jewish people and that of the early Christians are strikingly different. You just proved that point yourself, kid.
Actually, Jesus did not teach or help only the Jews. He acknowledged that he was sent to the Jews but that did not stop him from treating others as Jews.
"When Jesus left there, He withdrew to the area of Tyre and Sidon. Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came and kept crying out, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is cruelly tormented by a demon."

Yet He did not say a word to her. So His disciples approached Him and urged Him, "Send her away because she cries out after us."

He replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

But she came, knelt before Him, and said, "Lord, help me!"

He answered, "It isn't right to take the children's bread and throw it to their dogs."

"Yes, Lord," she said, "yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table!"

Then Jesus replied to her, "Woman, your faith is great. Let it be done for you as you want." And from that moment her daughter was cured."-Matthew 15:21-28
So, although he came for the Jews, his compassion stretched to all. Plus, when he went back to heaven, his gift was open to everyone because he said:
"This is why I say to you [the Jews], The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits."-Matthew 21:43
So, he came to earth for the Jews, he gladly did things for others, and when he left, his gift was open to everyone.
3. You still don’t get it. You’re not proving a single thing that you’re claiming. And despite whatever you want to believe, the Book of Kings was written after the Babylonian Capitivity, so they don’t really work for understanding pre-exile beliefs.
Actually, it's widely believed that Jeremiah wrote the Book of Kings during the exile. Jeremiah wasn't in the exile at Babylon because it is also believed that he wrote the in Judah and Egypt and finished it around 580 BCE.
And you misunderstood me. I’m not going to touch Deuteronomy discussion because you have no concern for historical accuracy. The Jewish people themselves (not to mention secular scholars) have in doubt of Moses’ authorship for centuries. But hey, what do you care? If the Watchtower Society says so, it must be true. Who cares about scholarship, right?
The Watchtower Society, the Jews, and nearly every other Christian group on the planet knows that Moses wrote Deuteronomy (minus chapter 34) as part of the Pentatuch. The terms "Moses wrote this law" and "Moses wrote this song" prove his writership. The first-person POV is used when refering to Moses. This is enough proof.

4. The ten Commandments don’t prove that they believed the statues themselves were gods. Maybe you should try using evidence that actually proves your point. When the Moabites worshipped fish idols, they weren’t worshipping the idols themselves, but their god Chemosh.

Just because the Moabites worshipped different gods and YHWH said not to worship different gods does not mean that those gods were real. It also doesn't mean that the Jews believed those gods were real. The best way to tell what Jews believed is by looking at the Tanakh and this is it:

(Both pre-exile)
"See now that I alone am He; there is no God but Me. I bring death and I give life; I wound and I heal. No one can rescue anyone from My hand."-Deuteronomy 32:39

"You are My witnesses'—the LORD's declaration—'and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.'"-Isaiah 43:10
"This must be the end, then."-MorningLightMountain, Judas Unchained

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Postby lyons24000 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:26 pm

Question for Miguel: Are you Leto II? I ask because you really do remind me of him.
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Postby Miguel Ardevaas » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:46 pm

Yes, you said that Christianity started in 36 CE. But guess what? It started when Jesus died and supposedly rose from the dead.

And yes, Jesus did only teach the Jews, using Jewish custom and law. The teaching of Geniles was done by Peter and Paul after his death. And honestly, when will you learn to use relevant scriptures? Did I say a word about helping people? Didn't think so.

As far as the Book of Kings goes, the fact of the matter is that it's guesswork on authorship, since the only scholarly evidence on the matter simply points to a consistent Deuteronomistic style.

Further, you need to learn the difference between believes and know. The style is different from the rest of the Torah, the language present is different, the very school of thought is different.

Moses wrote this post. That's enough proof that Moses is debating you, right?

And I never claimed that it proved other gods existed, did I? I said that they aren't actually worshiping the images, but rather what the images represent. Because, well, they were. As were the rest of the non-Hebrew people living in the land of Israel.

And you can cherry-pick whatever scriptures you want, they don't negate the scriptures that don't support the single-god hypothesis.

EDIT: No, believe it or not, I'm a real person, not some character from Dune.

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Postby lyons24000 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:36 pm

Yes, you said that Christianity started in 36 CE. But guess what? It started when Jesus died and supposedly rose from the dead.
That just depends on how you look at it.
Further, you need to learn the difference between believes and know. The style is different from the rest of the Torah, the language present is different, the very school of thought is different.
The reason Deuteronomy is different from the rest of the Torah is because Moses only wrote the first five books of the Bible. He didn't write Joshua-Malachi.
EDIT: No, believe it or not, I'm a real person, not some character from Dune.
I guess you're not Leto II. When I talk about Leto II I am refering to another member of the old PWEB who argues much of the same things you did. I am not talking about Leto II from Dune. The fact that you didn't know who I was talking about tells me that you are not Leto II.
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Postby Miguel Ardevaas » Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:10 pm

Believe it or not, there are things in this world that aren't mere opinions. The moment the early Christians stopped uploading standard Jewish belief -- instead choosing to develop their own belief structure based upon both Jewish law and the teachings of Jesus -- is the moment they stopped having any right to decide what Jewish belief consists of.

::sigh:: You just don't get it. It's style is different from the other books attributed to Moses. The only books that reflect the same style and language are the Deuteronomistic texts. So if it doesn't read like Moses, doesn't use the same kind of language as Moses, doesn't even reflect the same school-of-thought as Moses, why is it we're supposed to believe it was written by Moses?

Oh, right, because it said that it was written by him. ::rolls eyes::

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Postby zeroguy » Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:19 pm

Believe it or not, there are things in this world that aren't mere opinions.
Oh joy. Should we have another argument on the existence of objectivity?
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Postby hive_king » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:21 am

YHWH said that and YHWH doesn't lie. (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29)
Wait. YHWH doesn't lie, and we know this because YHWH said he doesn't lie? I'm sorry, but your logic is quite circular.

I never lie.
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